76ers, Nuggets, Pacers, Raptors

[zimpy27]

Just from an Indy perspective, the Pacers absolutely wouldn’t consider a deal like this, where they get worse on the court, and only get a lotto protected 1st in 2023 as the consideration for it. Also, important to keep in mind, while George Hill is from Indy, his stint here ended poorly with burnt bridges. Not sure that one is being re-built and crossed again. But we also don’t have much of a need for him with Edmond Sumner looking like he’s ready to take that role of defensive combo guard with a 3 point shot.

We already potentially have 3 2nds in this draft. A 4th isn’t terribly interesting. And, we have a good amount of future 2nds such that the 2023 2nd isn’t much of anything at all.

I kind of like the Boucher/Sabonis fit. I think they'd be better on the court than Turner/Sabonis, especially with addition of Hill on top.

[Scoot McGroot]

Just from an Indy perspective, the Pacers absolutely wouldn’t consider a deal like this, where they get worse on the court, and only get a lotto protected 1st in 2023 as the consideration for it. Also, important to keep in mind, while George Hill is from Indy, his stint here ended poorly with burnt bridges. Not sure that one is being re-built and crossed again. But we also don’t have much of a need for him with Edmond Sumner looking like he’s ready to take that role of defensive combo guard with a 3 point shot.

We already potentially have 3 2nds in this draft. A 4th isn’t terribly interesting. And, we have a good amount of future 2nds such that the 2023 2nd isn’t much of anything at all.

I kind of like the Boucher/Sabonis fit. I think they'd be better on the court than Turner/Sabonis, especially with addition of Hill on top.

Did you quote the wrong person? You certainly didn’t respond quite to what I posted.

[zimpy27]

Just from an Indy perspective, the Pacers absolutely wouldn’t consider a deal like this, where they get worse on the court, and only get a lotto protected 1st in 2023 as the consideration for it. Also, important to keep in mind, while George Hill is from Indy, his stint here ended poorly with burnt bridges. Not sure that one is being re-built and crossed again. But we also don’t have much of a need for him with Edmond Sumner looking like he’s ready to take that role of defensive combo guard with a 3 point shot.

We already potentially have 3 2nds in this draft. A 4th isn’t terribly interesting. And, we have a good amount of future 2nds such that the 2023 2nd isn’t much of anything at all.

I kind of like the Boucher/Sabonis fit. I think they'd be better on the court than Turner/Sabonis, especially with addition of Hill on top.

Did you quote the wrong person? You certainly didn’t respond quite to what I posted.

You said OP deal would make Indy worse on the court, while I don't like the whole deal I thought pairing Boucher with Sabonis could actually improve the Pacers because of fit even though they lose talent.

I like that part of deal and I think something could be built around that

[Scoot McGroot]

I kind of like the Boucher/Sabonis fit. I think they'd be better on the court than Turner/Sabonis, especially with addition of Hill on top.

Did you quote the wrong person? You certainly didn’t respond quite to what I posted.

You said OP deal would make Indy worse on the court, while I don't like the whole deal I thought pairing Boucher with Sabonis could actually improve the Pacers because of fit even though they lose talent.

I like that part of deal and I think something could be built around that

Oh, I certainly disagree with that. I think Turner is the superior overall team defender to Boucher, and Sabonis certainly needs that even more so than a shot blocker. Boucher isn’t bad. Turner is just better in both quality and even fit, but mostly because of that quality.

But the Hill part seemed like you didn’t read what I posted. Hill will retire before coming back, and Indy would probably rather not deal with him again.

[zimpy27]

Did you quote the wrong person? You certainly didn’t respond quite to what I posted.

You said OP deal would make Indy worse on the court, while I don't like the whole deal I thought pairing Boucher with Sabonis could actually improve the Pacers because of fit even though they lose talent.

I like that part of deal and I think something could be built around that

Oh, I certainly disagree with that. I think Turner is the superior overall team defender to Boucher, and Sabonis certainly needs that even more so than a shot blocker. Boucher isn’t bad. Turner is just better in both quality and even fit, but mostly because of that quality.

But the Hill part seemed like you didn’t read what I posted. Hill will retire before coming back, and Indy would probably rather not deal with him again.

I guess I can see Boucher being a good piece in return for Turner or Sabonis. But Indy would likely need to get back much more too. I still think consolidating assets is a good idea for them. Perhaps something like Sabonis or Turner, Goga, Aaron Holiday for FVV and Boucher. Or would Indy be interested in Lowry?

[Scoot McGroot]

You said OP deal would make Indy worse on the court, while I don't like the whole deal I thought pairing Boucher with Sabonis could actually improve the Pacers because of fit even though they lose talent.

I like that part of deal and I think something could be built around that

Oh, I certainly disagree with that. I think Turner is the superior overall team defender to Boucher, and Sabonis certainly needs that even more so than a shot blocker. Boucher isn’t bad. Turner is just better in both quality and even fit, but mostly because of that quality.

But the Hill part seemed like you didn’t read what I posted. Hill will retire before coming back, and Indy would probably rather not deal with him again.

I guess I can see Boucher being a good piece in return for Turner or Sabonis. But Indy would likely need to get back much more too. I still think consolidating assets is a good idea for them. Perhaps something like Sabonis or Turner, Goga, Aaron Holiday for FVV and Boucher. Or would Indy be interested in Lowry?

FVV coming off the bench?

We have just 4 big men (Turner, Sabonis, Goga, and Brissett) and a ton of guards and wings. Unless Lowry/FVV is going to start at the 4, I can’t see us dealing one of our only big men for another starting caliber guard. I can only see FVV/Lowry being targets if we deal someone or both of Brogdon/Levert. I definitely can’t see us dealing two big men for just 1. If we deal Turner, it’s to help elevate Goga to more playing time. We’re certainly not dealing both for just Boucher at the bigs.

But mostly, the ideas just seem like moves to make for moves, without really having a goal of why they should be made in terms of team construction. As you said, consolidating assets might be a consideration, but you’re certainly not doing that here.

[zimpy27]

Oh, I certainly disagree with that. I think Turner is the superior overall team defender to Boucher, and Sabonis certainly needs that even more so than a shot blocker. Boucher isn’t bad. Turner is just better in both quality and even fit, but mostly because of that quality.

But the Hill part seemed like you didn’t read what I posted. Hill will retire before coming back, and Indy would probably rather not deal with him again.

I guess I can see Boucher being a good piece in return for Turner or Sabonis. But Indy would likely need to get back much more too. I still think consolidating assets is a good idea for them. Perhaps something like Sabonis or Turner, Goga, Aaron Holiday for FVV and Boucher. Or would Indy be interested in Lowry?

FVV coming off the bench?

We have just 4 big men (Turner, Sabonis, Goga, and Brissett) and a ton of guards and wings. Unless Lowry/FVV is going to start at the 4, I can’t see us dealing one of our only big men for another starting caliber guard. I can only see FVV/Lowry being targets if we deal someone or both of Brogdon/Levert. I definitely can’t see us dealing two big men for just 1. If we deal Turner, it’s to help elevate Goga to more playing time. We’re certainly not dealing both for just Boucher at the bigs.

But mostly, the ideas just seem like moves to make for moves, without really having a goal of why they should be made in terms of team construction. As you said, consolidating assets might be a consideration, but you’re certainly not doing that here.

Well I see Brogdon as a guard that could work off ball alongside FVV/Lowry. Not honestly trying to do moves for the sake of it, just trying to play around with combinations here to find a nice fit.

Sabonis, Goga, A+J Holiday for FVV, Boucher, Baynes

FVV, Brogdon, Lamb, Boucher, Turner
TJ, Sumner, Caris, Warren, Baynes

That feels like a balanced team where Indy has consolidated some players for a couple better (albeit older) and given space for Sumner to play. Does this work at all?

[Scoot McGroot]

I guess I can see Boucher being a good piece in return for Turner or Sabonis. But Indy would likely need to get back much more too. I still think consolidating assets is a good idea for them. Perhaps something like Sabonis or Turner, Goga, Aaron Holiday for FVV and Boucher. Or would Indy be interested in Lowry?

FVV coming off the bench?

We have just 4 big men (Turner, Sabonis, Goga, and Brissett) and a ton of guards and wings. Unless Lowry/FVV is going to start at the 4, I can’t see us dealing one of our only big men for another starting caliber guard. I can only see FVV/Lowry being targets if we deal someone or both of Brogdon/Levert. I definitely can’t see us dealing two big men for just 1. If we deal Turner, it’s to help elevate Goga to more playing time. We’re certainly not dealing both for just Boucher at the bigs.

But mostly, the ideas just seem like moves to make for moves, without really having a goal of why they should be made in terms of team construction. As you said, consolidating assets might be a consideration, but you’re certainly not doing that here.

Well I see Brogdon as a guard that could work off ball alongside FVV/Lowry. Not honestly trying to do moves for the sake of it, just trying to play around with combinations here to find a nice fit.

Sabonis, Goga, A+J Holiday for FVV, Boucher, Baynes

FVV, Brogdon, Lamb, Boucher, Turner
TJ, Sumner, Caris, Warren, Baynes

That feels like a balanced team where Indy has consolidated some players for a couple better (albeit older) and given space for Sumner to play. Does this work at all?

Meh. It limits how much FVV can play, since he’d split minutes with Brogdon/Caris/Sumner, but somehow still weakens the wings by losing Justin Holiday from the bench. While still hurting us at the bigs. All to add another really good guard that we don’t have enough minutes that he deserves.

Also, your lineup shows little understanding of Indy and the roster. Justin Holiday is a key piece. TJ Warren is a starter, absolutely. Lamb is a non-factor in terms of the lineups and is closer to 3rd string here. If Baynes plays as he has all his career but his one explosion in Phoenix, the bigs are hurt tremendously in losing both Sabonis and Goga for just Boucher coming back. Oshae Brissett is the bench 4 here going into next year. TJ McConnell is a free agent needing to be re-signed, but less likely to be able to do so after this deal.

Realistically, as I said, there’s not much of a spot in Indy for FVV unless at least one of Brogdon or Levert are moved out in the same deal. And dealing more big men/wings (where we are weak overall) for more guards (where we have a ton of guys) is a flawed idea without it being a massive overhaul where some of those excesses are moved, too.

[zimpy27]

FVV coming off the bench?

We have just 4 big men (Turner, Sabonis, Goga, and Brissett) and a ton of guards and wings. Unless Lowry/FVV is going to start at the 4, I can’t see us dealing one of our only big men for another starting caliber guard. I can only see FVV/Lowry being targets if we deal someone or both of Brogdon/Levert. I definitely can’t see us dealing two big men for just 1. If we deal Turner, it’s to help elevate Goga to more playing time. We’re certainly not dealing both for just Boucher at the bigs.

But mostly, the ideas just seem like moves to make for moves, without really having a goal of why they should be made in terms of team construction. As you said, consolidating assets might be a consideration, but you’re certainly not doing that here.

Well I see Brogdon as a guard that could work off ball alongside FVV/Lowry. Not honestly trying to do moves for the sake of it, just trying to play around with combinations here to find a nice fit.

Sabonis, Goga, A+J Holiday for FVV, Boucher, Baynes

FVV, Brogdon, Lamb, Boucher, Turner
TJ, Sumner, Caris, Warren, Baynes

That feels like a balanced team where Indy has consolidated some players for a couple better (albeit older) and given space for Sumner to play. Does this work at all?

Meh. It limits how much FVV can play, since he’d split minutes with Brogdon/Caris/Sumner, but somehow still weakens the wings by losing Justin Holiday from the bench. While still hurting us at the bigs. All to add another really good guard that we don’t have enough minutes that he deserves.

Also, your lineup shows little understanding of Indy and the roster. Justin Holiday is a key piece. TJ Warren is a starter, absolutely. Lamb is a non-factor in terms of the lineups and is closer to 3rd string here. If Baynes plays as he has all his career but his one explosion in Phoenix, the bigs are hurt tremendously in losing both Sabonis and Goga for just Boucher coming back. Oshae Brissett is the bench 4 here going into next year. TJ McConnell is a free agent needing to be re-signed, but less likely to be able to do so after this deal.

Realistically, as I said, there’s not much of a spot in Indy for FVV unless at least one of Brogdon or Levert are moved out in the same deal. And dealing more big men/wings (where we are weak overall) for more guards (where we have a ton of guys) is a flawed idea without it being a massive overhaul where some of those excesses are moved, too.

I would not know as much as you but I like the idea of Caris leading the bench, I know Caris starts there but this would be my preference. I also think Warren will be best as a PF after these lower leg injuries.

Yes I know TJ would need to be re-signed but figured that would be a no brainer given how he's played for you guys.

Anyway, seems like you hate it. It's just about transferring some more Indy offense from bigs to guards.

[Scoot McGroot]

Well I see Brogdon as a guard that could work off ball alongside FVV/Lowry. Not honestly trying to do moves for the sake of it, just trying to play around with combinations here to find a nice fit.

Sabonis, Goga, A+J Holiday for FVV, Boucher, Baynes

FVV, Brogdon, Lamb, Boucher, Turner
TJ, Sumner, Caris, Warren, Baynes

That feels like a balanced team where Indy has consolidated some players for a couple better (albeit older) and given space for Sumner to play. Does this work at all?

Meh. It limits how much FVV can play, since he’d split minutes with Brogdon/Caris/Sumner, but somehow still weakens the wings by losing Justin Holiday from the bench. While still hurting us at the bigs. All to add another really good guard that we don’t have enough minutes that he deserves.

Also, your lineup shows little understanding of Indy and the roster. Justin Holiday is a key piece. TJ Warren is a starter, absolutely. Lamb is a non-factor in terms of the lineups and is closer to 3rd string here. If Baynes plays as he has all his career but his one explosion in Phoenix, the bigs are hurt tremendously in losing both Sabonis and Goga for just Boucher coming back. Oshae Brissett is the bench 4 here going into next year. TJ McConnell is a free agent needing to be re-signed, but less likely to be able to do so after this deal.

Realistically, as I said, there’s not much of a spot in Indy for FVV unless at least one of Brogdon or Levert are moved out in the same deal. And dealing more big men/wings (where we are weak overall) for more guards (where we have a ton of guys) is a flawed idea without it being a massive overhaul where some of those excesses are moved, too.

I would not know as much as you but I like the idea of Caris leading the bench, I know Caris starts there but this would be my preference. I also think Warren will be best as a PF after these lower leg injuries.

If you do so, you’re either burying guys like Sumner completely, or you’re playing guys like Brogdon/FVV/Caris 30 minutes or less a night. Same for Boucher/Warren. If Warren is coming off the bench, how little minutes is Boucher going to play? And Oshae Brissett just doesn’t get to play...or he’s the backup at the 5? Just seems like massive roster mis-management.

Yes I know TJ would need to be re-signed but figured that would be a no brainer given how he's played for you guys.

That’s the plan, but as in the previous paragraph, you’ve now set up a system where Caris is playing ALL the backup guard minutes, so McConnell is completely benched, or has the ball out of his hands completely, so why would he re-sign, even if we tried to with less ability to do so after this deal?

Anyway, seems like you hate it. It's just about transferring some more Indy offense from bigs to guards.

It’s just more that it greatly weakens an already weak spot to strengthen an already rather strong spot. Really just seems like mis-management of the roster and resources, as we’d have to really either re-trade the pieces we get back in order to fill holes created by dealing those guys for these guys.

I get the want to move offense at the 5 in Sabonis for offense elsewhere, but really, Warren alone solves a lot of that. Playing him at the 4 is fine, and was really a major plan for this year, where he was going to handle a lot of the 4 minutes whenever Turner/Sabonis weren’t playing together, but the injury eliminated that possibility this year.

I’m all for moving Sabonis, but if we do, and play Turner at the 5, and if we have plans to play Warren as a 4 a lot, we desperately need 3/4’s back. Not another majority ball handling guard. Otherwise, we’re wasting that new guy, and we’re wasting Levert, Brogdon, and eliminating the possibility of re-signing McConnell.

[Topofthekey]

I guess I can see Boucher being a good piece in return for Turner or Sabonis. But Indy would likely need to get back much more too. I still think consolidating assets is a good idea for them. Perhaps something like Sabonis or Turner, Goga, Aaron Holiday for FVV and Boucher. Or would Indy be interested in Lowry?

FVV coming off the bench?

We have just 4 big men (Turner, Sabonis, Goga, and Brissett) and a ton of guards and wings. Unless Lowry/FVV is going to start at the 4, I can’t see us dealing one of our only big men for another starting caliber guard. I can only see FVV/Lowry being targets if we deal someone or both of Brogdon/Levert. I definitely can’t see us dealing two big men for just 1. If we deal Turner, it’s to help elevate Goga to more playing time. We’re certainly not dealing both for just Boucher at the bigs.

But mostly, the ideas just seem like moves to make for moves, without really having a goal of why they should be made in terms of team construction. As you said, consolidating assets might be a consideration, but you’re certainly not doing that here.

Well I see Brogdon as a guard that could work off ball alongside FVV/Lowry. Not honestly trying to do moves for the sake of it, just trying to play around with combinations here to find a nice fit.

Sabonis, Goga, A+J Holiday for FVV, Boucher, Baynes

FVV, Brogdon, Lamb, Boucher, Turner
TJ, Sumner, Caris, Warren, Baynes

That feels like a balanced team where Indy has consolidated some players for a couple better (albeit older) and given space for Sumner to play. Does this work at all?

You literally had Pacers giving away the best player in the trade in Sabonis for two players in return in FVV and Boucher

How is that a consolidation?

Plus the value is just terrible

Sabonis alone has more value than FVV and Boucher, but then you also have them giving up Goga and the Holidays for Aron Baynes?

[Mr Swagtastic]

Sabonis, Goga, A+J Holiday for FVV, Boucher, Baynes

FVV, Brogdon, Lamb, Boucher, Turner
TJ, Sumner, Caris, Warren, Baynes

That feels like a balanced team where Indy has consolidated some players for a couple better (albeit older) and given space for Sumner to play. Does this work at all?

If Masai pulls this off he's won the offseason IMHO. Sabonis is a great get the kid does everything but be a lock down defender. He's a decent defender but with Anunoby and Pascal I think they can help him. Goga is still youngish and I think gives Toronto insurance as a third C if Birch walks. The Holiday brothers are good depth. I honestly can't see Indy going for this.

I have Sabonis as clearly the best piece then it's VanVleet, I get they grab Boucher but IMHO the Holidays and Goga drive that wedge even further.

[zimpy27]

Sabonis, Goga, A+J Holiday for FVV, Boucher, Baynes

FVV, Brogdon, Lamb, Boucher, Turner
TJ, Sumner, Caris, Warren, Baynes

That feels like a balanced team where Indy has consolidated some players for a couple better (albeit older) and given space for Sumner to play. Does this work at all?

If Masai pulls this off he's won the offseason IMHO. Sabonis is a great get the kid does everything but be a lock down defender. He's a decent defender but with Anunoby and Pascal I think they can help him. Goga is still youngish and I think gives Toronto insurance as a third C if Birch walks. The Holiday brothers are good depth. I honestly can't see Indy going for this.

I have Sabonis as clearly the best piece then it's VanVleet, I get they grab Boucher but IMHO the Holidays and Goga drive that wedge even further.

Yeah Scoot outlined that it was an overpay for Indy as well. I just think a Sabonis for Boucher+FVV swap would make sense for both teams, just trying to build around that. Can you come up with a fairer trade based on this?

[LloydFree]

I have zero interest in the 76ers giving anything for the right to pay a 35 year old non-allstar 20+ million per year.

He's going to the Heat or Knicks for nothing, or re-signing with the Raptors.

[Coeur]

Nugs not trading Murray at his all time low value while injured. Take the Murray part out.

[ecuhus1981]

I don't see how Denver utilizes Anunoby, Gordon and Porter. I could see Gordon/Barton/Bol for OG, but I think that Toronto values him higher. Besides, they would want their native son Jamal. Fun idea, but it falls apart.

[Mr Swagtastic]

I don't see how Denver utilizes Anunoby, Gordon and Porter. I could see Gordon/Barton/Bol for OG, but I think that Toronto values him higher. Besides, they would want their native son Jamal. Fun idea, but it falls apart.

Toronto doesn't do this, Bol Bol is yet another skinny big they have to develop when they have Boucher, Gillespie and Birch already on the team. Barton is good as a bench piece but Aaron Gordon is on a expiring deal next year. I don't think he wants to be part of yet another rebuild after being on one for his entire career in Orlando

[NuggetsWY]

Sorry OP, but 76ers almost certainly say no. Lowry needs the ball in his hands, so does Simmons. IMO Lowry might fit better but only on offense.

Nuggets say no way. 1st and most important, they say Murray is not tradeable and this deal isn't close to enough to make them change their minds. I like OG as a small forward. It'll push Gordon to the bench but with injuries always possible and considering a three man forward rotation of Porter, Anunoby, Gordon and Anunoby even playing some SG; that would be nice. Curry's a nice shooter and Denver would like him I think; but they still say no. Murray is that good.

Pacers probably say no. Turner's a nice fit on their team and gambling on two 2nds and a mid-level 1st isn't worth it.

If the Raptors turned down a chance to get Murray, they'd have to change their name to the Tampa Bay Raptors. 'nough said.

[Rapcity_11]

Sorry OP, but 76ers almost certainly say no. Lowry needs the ball in his hands, so does Simmons. IMO Lowry might fit better but only on offense.

Lowry plays off the ball all the time. He literally starts next to another PG right now.