CHA - IND

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Re: CHA - IND 

Post#61 » by amcoolio » Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:07 am

Xman wrote:Wow, just wow. That is not near a Simmons package or other stars. Way overvaluing every player on that roster.

Let's talk centers:
Clearly better than Turner: Embiid, Jokic, Gobert, KAT
Arguably in the same range: Sabonis, Bam, Ayton, Val, Vuc, Wood, Capela
Maybe I missed one or two but the point is there are not many.

Turner is 6'11 and big enough to play with anybody. He can also run. Solid percentages and has enough of an outside shot to create space. His defense was phenomenal lately - block crazy. He is not a star on offense but is a threat. Would be a huge improvement for teams that need an inside presence and can fit most systems. He is not "an oft injured role player."

PJ and Bridges - picks 12 in consecutive drafts. Both are 12/6 guys. I know you are not saying these guys are worth too much. Fringe starters that could be good backups or solid fifth guy on the court. Not playmakers.
Graham back down to 14/5 after a better year last year. Not a good sign when stats descend in a contract year. Amazing stat of same 2 percentage as 3 percentage 37%.
I like Rozier but he is 6'1. His 3 point % is solid. He is also streaky. Not really a sg but not really a pg either - definition of combo guard. Value is limited by $18 mil expiring contract.

Right now, CHA has Hayward, Melo and a bunch of fringe guys. A center like Turner would give them an edge and make things easier for Hayward and Melo.

Saying you would not trade PJ for Turner straight up = homerism (or, in this case "Babe Ruth size Homerism")


If Val is in the same range as Turner, why the hell would Charlotte trade 11+Bridges+Washington+Graham for Val? :lol:

It's a wonder why the Pacers didn't win 60 games and were the NBA's best team this season with all this value you are putting on their players

PJ and Bridges - picks 12 in consecutive drafts. Both are 12/6 guys. I know you are not saying these guys are worth too much.


Did you really just post this when Myles Turner himself is a 12/6 guy?

Guys, keep him. You clearly value him way more than any other team and Charlotte is certainly not trading that package you want for him
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Re: CHA - IND 

Post#62 » by xxSnEaKyPxx » Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:10 am

amcoolio wrote:It's a wonder why the Pacers didn't win 60 games and were the NBA's best team this season with all this value you are putting on their players

Welp, the Pacers were missing 3 starters and still took a massive dump on the Hornets during the play-in game...so how is it you're assigning all this value to Hornets players when they couldn't even hang with a bad team missing 3 starters? :dontknow:
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Re: CHA - IND 

Post#63 » by amcoolio » Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:13 am

xxSnEaKyPxx wrote:
amcoolio wrote:It's a wonder why the Pacers didn't win 60 games and were the NBA's best team this season with all this value you are putting on their players

Welp, the Pacers were missing 3 starters and still took a massive dump on the Hornets during the play-in game...so how is it you're assigning all this value to Hornets players when they couldn't even hang with a bad team missing 3 starters?


The Hornets were toast the last month of the season, no Hornet fan is denying that

What value am I assigning? I don't even want Turner (which means we will inevitably trade for him)

The dude wanted 11+Bridges+Washington+Graham for Turner, who isn't considered a top 10 center by pretty much anyone, and I pointed out his BS
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Re: CHA - IND 

Post#64 » by SO_MONEY » Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:23 am

Wizop wrote:Twitter has several teams really wanting Turner and for me the list includes the Pacers. Talking down his value isn't going to get him to you cheaply. Either someone else will make a better offer or we'll just keep him.

Sent from my phone.


He is worth what he is worth, IND will have to make a decision if they want to keep him or not based on his actual value not the value they hope for which should always be higher.
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Re: CHA - IND 

Post#65 » by xxSnEaKyPxx » Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:25 am

amcoolio wrote:
xxSnEaKyPxx wrote:
amcoolio wrote:It's a wonder why the Pacers didn't win 60 games and were the NBA's best team this season with all this value you are putting on their players

Welp, the Pacers were missing 3 starters and still took a massive dump on the Hornets during the play-in game...so how is it you're assigning all this value to Hornets players when they couldn't even hang with a bad team missing 3 starters?


The Hornets were toast the last month of the season, no Hornet fan is denying that

What value am I assigning? I don't even want Turner (which means we will inevitably trade for him)

The dude wanted 11+Bridges+Washington+Graham for Turner, who isn't considered a top 10 center by pretty much anyone, and I pointed out his BS

Turner is absolutely a top 10 center in the NBA....unless of course you just don't assign any value to defense, which fair enough, most people don't these days.

There is also a difference between a players value and what it would take for a team to trade a player. Now, while I agree that would be too much for Turner, Pacer fans have been seeing what we deem lowball offers from Hornets fans for about a year now(I realize you aren't one of them.)
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Re: CHA - IND 

Post#66 » by basketballwacko2 » Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:26 am

amcoolio wrote:
xxSnEaKyPxx wrote:
amcoolio wrote:It's a wonder why the Pacers didn't win 60 games and were the NBA's best team this season with all this value you are putting on their players

Welp, the Pacers were missing 3 starters and still took a massive dump on the Hornets during the play-in game...so how is it you're assigning all this value to Hornets players when they couldn't even hang with a bad team missing 3 starters?


The Hornets were toast the last month of the season, no Hornet fan is denying that

What value am I assigning? I don't even want Turner (which means we will inevitably trade for him)

The dude wanted 11+Bridges+Washington+Graham for Turner, who isn't considered a top 10 center by pretty much anyone, and I pointed out his BS


Maybe you never personally ask about Turner but plenty of other hornets fans have and this thread was not one of us looking to trade the guy.
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Re: CHA - IND 

Post#67 » by Xman » Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:27 am

I am not an Indy fan. Just rating him based on stats, a few games I have seen and other people's opinions on this board. I have seen people post they would not give Turner for Mobley (#2 pick to be).

But, if your players are where you rate them, why is CHA 33-39?
Last year CHA fans rated Graham like he was Fox or Morant. Now you are rating PJ like he is a young Karl Malone. Rozier is worth more than Turner?! Let me guess, Bridges is the new Pippen:)

Personally, I think Indy had three big problems last year. Turner was out of position (but he sucked it up and played hard for the team), Warren's injury was devastating, and they needed the Dipo of old (cost cutting at sg does not help).
They should move one of Sabonis or Turner in my opinion.
Turner would be a blessing for GS. Maybe MEM, SAC, ORL, NY, BOS, etc. Lots of good fits.
Sabonis would draw good value from; BOS, WAS, NY, TOR, ORL, MEM, SAC, NO, etc.

PJ might start for . . . . LAC, MIN, OKC, CLE?, CHI?
Look, the guy is undersized but has a good shot. Poor man's version of AGordon?
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Re: CHA - IND 

Post#68 » by youngcrev » Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:29 am

I go back and forth on how I value Turner. Part of me goes, 3+D rim protecting center? Yes please!

But then the more I think about him as a player... I just don't know. While he takes a good amount of 3s for a center, it's not like he's particularly efficient from there. Doesn't have that much of an offensive game in general. Not much of a rebounder. Doesn't seem like a great option to switch out on the perimeter, though maybe I'm wrong there. Not a very good post defender, though that's mostly just an issue against Embiid and Jokic these days.

And then I come back to "but he's a high end rim protector that can space."

Regardless, I don't think he's this valuable, even when I'm in my glass is half full evaluation of him.
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Re: CHA - IND 

Post#69 » by MasterIchiro » Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:31 am

Don't know if Charlotte is the winning bid but I think the Twin Tower approach is coming to an end and there will be meltdowns.

We lost our best player Kemba and we're better off.
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Re: CHA - IND 

Post#70 » by Xman » Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:40 am

I do not think he is that guy that leads you to victory. I do think he is that guy that lets others guys shine by boxing out and doing the dirty work. Able to run so not a pace killer. Just all around decent - which is hard to find at center. You have offensive guys, defensive guys, slow guys, and lots of undersized guys. Very hard to find one that is solid all around (and maybe excels at defense). Look at Boston and wonder what difference he would have (and could) made there. CLE is going to overpay JAllen to not have a void in the middle. How many picks has SAC (and many others) burned trying to find a big man? He is 6'11 and 250 - not undersized trying to outjump and outquick big guys. He is not Superman but he is not Clark Kent either. Maybe a really good Robin.
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Re: CHA - IND 

Post#71 » by Wizop » Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:50 am

SO_MONEY wrote:
Wizop wrote:Twitter has several teams really wanting Turner and for me the list includes the Pacers. Talking down his value isn't going to get him to you cheaply. Either someone else will make a better offer or we'll just keep him.

Sent from my phone.


He is worth what he is worth, IND will have to make a decision if they want to keep him or not based on his actual value not the value they hope for which should always be higher.
Certainly and all things being equal we'd rather send him West so we don't have to compete against him as often. But our owners aren't likely to approve any deal that doesn't make us better immediately.

Sent from my phone.
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Re: CHA - IND 

Post#72 » by amcoolio » Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:17 am

Xman wrote:But, if your players are where you rate them, why is CHA 33-39?


What was Indy's record this year?

Last year CHA fans rated Graham like he was Fox or Morant.


No. Just no.
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Re: CHA - IND 

Post#73 » by Scoot McGroot » Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:56 am

amcoolio wrote:
Xman wrote:But, if your players are where you rate them, why is CHA 33-39?


What was Indy's record this year?


He's not an Indy fan.
Last year CHA fans rated Graham like he was Fox or Morant.


No. Just no.


Agreed. Charlotte fans here really liked Graham, and were willing to test the shopping on him, but I don't recall anything more than mid-1st kind of valuation. That may have been a bit rosy, but was pretty fair. Definitely not a Fox or Morant comparison or other outlandish comparison that I remember.
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Re: CHA - IND 

Post#74 » by Topofthekey » Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:34 am

aguiar95 wrote:
Topofthekey wrote:Terrible

There is no need, or even the space, for Rozier on the Pacers roster

And he's also an upcoming FA, so Pacers aren't going to want to be the one to overpay him

Using Rozier as the centrepiece for a Myles Turner deal is just a fundamentally flawed idea from the beginning


Not sure if you even read the trade. Rozier is the least valuable piece they're sending you ....

Really

Which is the most valuable piece in your opinion
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Re: CHA - IND 

Post#75 » by Topofthekey » Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:43 am

Xman wrote:I am not an Indy fan. Just rating him based on stats, a few games I have seen and other people's opinions on this board. I have seen people post they would not give Turner for Mobley (#2 pick to be).

But, if your players are where you rate them, why is CHA 33-39?
Last year CHA fans rated Graham like he was Fox or Morant. Now you are rating PJ like he is a young Karl Malone. Rozier is worth more than Turner?! Let me guess, Bridges is the new Pippen:)

Personally, I think Indy had three big problems last year. Turner was out of position (but he sucked it up and played hard for the team), Warren's injury was devastating, and they needed the Dipo of old (cost cutting at sg does not help).
They should move one of Sabonis or Turner in my opinion.
Turner would be a blessing for GS. Maybe MEM, SAC, ORL, NY, BOS, etc. Lots of good fits.
Sabonis would draw good value from; BOS, WAS, NY, TOR, ORL, MEM, SAC, NO, etc.

PJ might start for . . . . LAC, MIN, OKC, CLE?, CHI?
Look, the guy is undersized but has a good shot. Poor man's version of AGordon?

The funny thing is they frequently trash PJ Washington among themselves on their own boards. For example, at least one of them called him a quitter after an abysmal game

I understand that a fan base is not a monolithic entity, and there are bound to be stark differences in how players are valued by each individual. It's just strange that the valuation of PJ Washington can seemingly undergo a 180 degree swing around, depending on whether you are reading the TB or the Hornets board
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Re: CHA - IND 

Post#76 » by Topofthekey » Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:28 am

SO_MONEY wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
SO_MONEY wrote:Some of these asks for Turner are ridiculous. PJ is worth more than Turner alone. Rozier might even be worth more. Turner is a 13/7/1 big who is good defensively, but making $18mil. He just is not a big package player and if he brings one IND should be insanely happy, but I don't think he will...I think there is a good chance fans have the valuation wrong on this.


He’s pretty great defensively. A 13/7/1/3+ blocks per night guy that can turn a bad defense into good by himself. If you don’t value defense, I get why you might not expect Turner to get good value. If you value good defense, you might wonder how Turner would go so affordably.


I value defense, but he is a poor rebounding limited offense guy too, who is making $18mil and misses games. And let's be honest it is more like or closer to 2+ blocks if past is prologue. Sure I think he is worth a decent player of comparable value or a mid 1st, but both is an overpay given his limitations and a prospect that has room for growth and basically is of similar capabilities is out of the question...a guy like PJ. Problem is any prospect worth a darn probably puts up similar numbers and is far cheaper hard to give them up considering. Yes the added defense is nice, but guys putting up his numbers have to play defense or they are out of a job. Point being you can find guys who help defensively for less cost all around.

What makes you say that?
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Re: CHA - IND 

Post#77 » by MasterIchiro » Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:28 pm

Just realized Hornets have more cap than I projected. We have the ability to retain Rozier, Graham and Monk and make a strong bid for Richaun Holmes. PJ, pick 11, Miles, Rozier, you don't have to worry about any of that trash.

Those other teams your beat reporter mentioned will need to raise their bids because the Hornets are not a likely team to get aggressive, given the availability of Holmes for money alone and his fit.
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Re: CHA - IND 

Post#78 » by Scoot McGroot » Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:43 pm

MasterIchiro wrote:Just realized Hornets have more cap than I projected. We have the ability to retain Rozier, Graham and Monk and make a strong bid for Richaun Holmes. PJ, pick 11, Miles, Rozier, you don't have to worry about any of that trash.

Those other teams your beat reporter mentioned will need to raise their bids because the Hornets are not a likely team to get aggressive, given the availability of Holmes for money alone and his fit.


I wrote about it in the other thread, but the Hornets don’t have as much as you think. Retain Rozier, Graham, and Monk, and they’re actually probably operating as an over the cap team using the MLE. Get Monk to sign for only around $10m, and they could max out around $16-18m in cap space, IF they waive and renounce the Martin brothers and McDaniels. If Monk lingers on the books at his full cap hold, then they’ll still be around the spot where they’ll be better off to operate over the cap and use the MLE/BAE instead of $10m in cap space.

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