CHA - IND

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Re: CHA - IND 

Post#21 » by 8305 » Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:41 pm

I think Rozier is a good fit for the Pacers. We need someone who can defend pgs. But, he's got one year less on his deal and all things being equal I think Turner is more unique. Washington just doesn't excite me that much. Not convinced Brissett isn't just as good or better.
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Re: CHA - IND 

Post#22 » by Scoot McGroot » Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:50 pm

I would take “aggressive” simply to mean most often to call and talk about it. Maybe it means he’ll lean over the line of what he’s willing to offer and overpay a bit, much like Pritchard implied he had with the Myles package for Hayward last offseason. I wouldn’t assume a huge package of 11/Bridges/PJ for Turner. That seems…….overly aggressive.
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Re: CHA - IND 

Post#23 » by Scoot McGroot » Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:53 pm

Also, I’ll push back a bit on the Rozier part, in theory, too. I think Indy would have interest in Rozier, but probably only if one of Brogdon or Levert is traded this offseason, too. I don’t see them trading a starter in Myles for a package centered by a starting caliber guard that would have to come off the bench like Rozier. Plus, if Charlotte is dealing for Myles, I get that Myles is young and could play long-term with Ball, but wouldn’t Charlotte likely prefer to add Myles to Rozier/Hayward/Ball and get a really solid veteran core around Ball and try to solidly make the playoffs? A Rozier/Turner swap makes less sense, as it seems more like just shuffling deck chairs for both teams, rather than a move in a direction for either team.
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Re: CHA - IND 

Post#24 » by MasterIchiro » Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:53 pm

8305 wrote:I think Rozier is a good fit for the Pacers. We need someone who can defend pgs. But, he's got one year less on his deal and all things being equal I think Turner is more unique. Washington just doesn't excite me that much. Not convinced Brissett isn't just as good or better.


At least you're assigning appropriate value to a player this board has devalued for years, so props for that. If Rozier is moved and center is solved, it changes our free agency dramatically. I still feel Kupchak leans towards keeping Rozier and waiting past the draft. But he'd only do that if Indy values PJ as the main piece. PJ adds value as a small-ball 5 vs. backups and as a spacer in the starting lineup. Pacers have been historically good at spotting outside cost-controlled talent built to improve.
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Re: CHA - IND 

Post#25 » by MasterIchiro » Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:55 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:Also, I’ll push back a bit on the Rozier part, in theory, too. I think Indy would have interest in Rozier, but probably only if one of Brogdon or Levert is traded this offseason, too. I don’t see them trading a starter in Myles for a package centered by a starting caliber guard that would have to come off the bench like Rozier. Plus, if Charlotte is dealing for Myles, I get that Myles is young and could play long-term with Ball, but wouldn’t Charlotte likely prefer to add Myles to Rozier/Hayward/Ball and get a really solid veteran core around Ball and try to solidly make the playoffs? A Rozier/Turner swap makes less sense, as it seems more like just shuffling deck chairs for both teams, rather than a move in a direction for either team.


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Re: CHA - IND 

Post#26 » by Bologna Smasher » Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:01 pm

Hornets are giving up too much. Also don't think the Pacers would really have much interest in Rozier with both Brogdon and LeVert locked up.
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Re: CHA - IND 

Post#27 » by Scoot McGroot » Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:35 pm

MasterIchiro wrote:
8305 wrote:I think Rozier is a good fit for the Pacers. We need someone who can defend pgs. But, he's got one year less on his deal and all things being equal I think Turner is more unique. Washington just doesn't excite me that much. Not convinced Brissett isn't just as good or better.


At least you're assigning appropriate value to a player this board has devalued for years, so props for that. If Rozier is moved and center is solved, it changes our free agency dramatically. I still feel Kupchak leans towards keeping Rozier and waiting past the draft. But he'd only do that if Indy values PJ as the main piece. PJ adds value as a small-ball 5 vs. backups and as a spacer in the starting lineup. Pacers have been historically good at spotting outside cost-controlled talent built to improve.


Hypothetically, if we moved Myles for Washington, PJ would be asked to play 0 minutes at the 5. We’d be more than happy to play Sabonis and Goga for 48 minutes there.
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Re: CHA - IND 

Post#28 » by MasterIchiro » Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:44 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:
MasterIchiro wrote:
8305 wrote:I think Rozier is a good fit for the Pacers. We need someone who can defend pgs. But, he's got one year less on his deal and all things being equal I think Turner is more unique. Washington just doesn't excite me that much. Not convinced Brissett isn't just as good or better.


At least you're assigning appropriate value to a player this board has devalued for years, so props for that. If Rozier is moved and center is solved, it changes our free agency dramatically. I still feel Kupchak leans towards keeping Rozier and waiting past the draft. But he'd only do that if Indy values PJ as the main piece. PJ adds value as a small-ball 5 vs. backups and as a spacer in the starting lineup. Pacers have been historically good at spotting outside cost-controlled talent built to improve.


Hypothetically, if we moved Myles for Washington, PJ would be asked to play 0 minutes at the 5. We’d be more than happy to play Sabonis and Goga for 48 minutes there.


I think several teams have moved to hoarding players who play different roles of a 5. PJ is a fast, mobile small ball 5 that brings advantages in certain matchups, and adds a fast break layer to a half-court centric offense. Lineups with PJ as small ball 5 rated positive for the Hornets. When you need brawn obviously Goga is the stronger play. When you need pace it's PJ. When you're starting or closing, PJ is the 4 and Sabonis is the 5. I do wonder if Pacers fans rioted when Sabonis and Oladipo arrived initially. Change is always uncertain but if the Pacers like PJ as much as Kupchak did when Mitch drafted him in the lottery, it's a good omen for PJ's ceiling and fit. If they don't like PJ I can accept it. Obviously Rozier is easier to read being more established. But he's also more expensive. This move saves money.
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Re: CHA - IND 

Post#29 » by Scoot McGroot » Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:59 pm

MasterIchiro wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
MasterIchiro wrote:
At least you're assigning appropriate value to a player this board has devalued for years, so props for that. If Rozier is moved and center is solved, it changes our free agency dramatically. I still feel Kupchak leans towards keeping Rozier and waiting past the draft. But he'd only do that if Indy values PJ as the main piece. PJ adds value as a small-ball 5 vs. backups and as a spacer in the starting lineup. Pacers have been historically good at spotting outside cost-controlled talent built to improve.


Hypothetically, if we moved Myles for Washington, PJ would be asked to play 0 minutes at the 5. We’d be more than happy to play Sabonis and Goga for 48 minutes there.


I think several teams have moved to hoarding players who play different roles of a 5. PJ is a fast, mobile small ball 5 that brings advantages in certain matchups, and adds a fast break layer to a half-court centric offense. Lineups with PJ as small ball 5 rated positive for the Hornets. When you need brawn obviously Goga is the stronger play. When you need pace it's PJ. When you're starting or closing, PJ is the 4 and Sabonis is the 5. I do wonder if Pacers fans rioted when Sabonis and Oladipo arrived initially. Change is always uncertain but if the Pacers like PJ as much as Kupchak did when Mitch drafted him in the lottery, it's a good omen for PJ's ceiling and fit. If they don't like PJ I can accept it. Obviously Rozier is easier to read being more established. But he's also more expensive. This move saves money.


I get that it worked for Charlotte, but for Indy, it would require benching Sabonis or Goga in order to play it, as opposed to a Bismack Biyombo or Cody Zeller. We’d just rather not, and would play Washington at the 4. Plus, wasn’t it getting “figured out” by the end of the season? Was it that it was an inherently great play, in and of itself? Or was Washington at the 5 a good play because you didn’t have a Myles/Sabonis/Goga to otherwise take those minutes, so it was better than playing Biyombo/Carey/etc?

As for “rioting” against change like the PG for Sabonis/Oladipo change? Not really. The riot was just that we thought we should be getting a 1st, too. We knew PG had to be moved, and soon. We were surprised by the timing, but didn’t riot. Then again, Oladipo was a beloved Hoosier, so we felt good there. And a lot of us really liked Arvydas’ son. :dontknow:
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Re: CHA - IND 

Post#30 » by MasterIchiro » Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:14 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:
MasterIchiro wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
Hypothetically, if we moved Myles for Washington, PJ would be asked to play 0 minutes at the 5. We’d be more than happy to play Sabonis and Goga for 48 minutes there.


I think several teams have moved to hoarding players who play different roles of a 5. PJ is a fast, mobile small ball 5 that brings advantages in certain matchups, and adds a fast break layer to a half-court centric offense. Lineups with PJ as small ball 5 rated positive for the Hornets. When you need brawn obviously Goga is the stronger play. When you need pace it's PJ. When you're starting or closing, PJ is the 4 and Sabonis is the 5. I do wonder if Pacers fans rioted when Sabonis and Oladipo arrived initially. Change is always uncertain but if the Pacers like PJ as much as Kupchak did when Mitch drafted him in the lottery, it's a good omen for PJ's ceiling and fit. If they don't like PJ I can accept it. Obviously Rozier is easier to read being more established. But he's also more expensive. This move saves money.


I get that it worked for Charlotte, but for Indy, it would require benching Sabonis or Goga in order to play it, as opposed to a Bismack Biyombo or Cody Zeller. We’d just rather not, and would play Washington at the 4. Plus, wasn’t it getting “figured out” by the end of the season? Was it that it was an inherently great play, in and of itself? Or was Washington at the 5 a good play because you didn’t have a Myles/Sabonis/Goga to otherwise take those minutes, so it was better than playing Biyombo/Carey/etc?

As for “rioting” against change like the PG for Sabonis/Oladipo change? Not really. The riot was just that we thought we should be getting a 1st, too. We knew PG had to be moved, and soon. We were surprised by the timing, but didn’t riot. Then again, Oladipo was a beloved Hoosier, so we felt good there. And a lot of us really liked Arvydas’ son. :dontknow:


Maybe PJ's versatility as a small ball mobile 5 who can switch to perimeter threats holds value only as a contingency to injury to Sabonis or Goga.

PJ at the 5 wasn't figured out. Miles got COVID and it all fell apart. Jalen McDaniels was more of a 3 in place of injured Hayward.

But when Hayward was healthy PJ at the 5 worked with Miles off the bench playing 4. Hayward makes things work. The team collapsed due to his loss moreso than LaMelo. We need rim protection in the worst way and PJ won't give you that. He's a legit stretch 4 though. Sabonis gives more on offense than he subtracts on defense and he remains a movable piece if the defense falls apart. I don't think it will. Hornets are very young and still learning concepts, positioning etc.
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Re: CHA - IND 

Post#31 » by MUpacersSIC » Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:29 pm

I think #11 and PJ Washington is plenty for Turner. Would I love to get more? Of course! However, I think we’ll see this along the lines of a more realistic return. I’d be happy with #11 and PJ or Bridges, and I’m a pretty big Myles Turner fan.
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Re: CHA - IND 

Post#32 » by Scoot McGroot » Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:36 pm

MasterIchiro wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
MasterIchiro wrote:
I think several teams have moved to hoarding players who play different roles of a 5. PJ is a fast, mobile small ball 5 that brings advantages in certain matchups, and adds a fast break layer to a half-court centric offense. Lineups with PJ as small ball 5 rated positive for the Hornets. When you need brawn obviously Goga is the stronger play. When you need pace it's PJ. When you're starting or closing, PJ is the 4 and Sabonis is the 5. I do wonder if Pacers fans rioted when Sabonis and Oladipo arrived initially. Change is always uncertain but if the Pacers like PJ as much as Kupchak did when Mitch drafted him in the lottery, it's a good omen for PJ's ceiling and fit. If they don't like PJ I can accept it. Obviously Rozier is easier to read being more established. But he's also more expensive. This move saves money.


I get that it worked for Charlotte, but for Indy, it would require benching Sabonis or Goga in order to play it, as opposed to a Bismack Biyombo or Cody Zeller. We’d just rather not, and would play Washington at the 4. Plus, wasn’t it getting “figured out” by the end of the season? Was it that it was an inherently great play, in and of itself? Or was Washington at the 5 a good play because you didn’t have a Myles/Sabonis/Goga to otherwise take those minutes, so it was better than playing Biyombo/Carey/etc?

As for “rioting” against change like the PG for Sabonis/Oladipo change? Not really. The riot was just that we thought we should be getting a 1st, too. We knew PG had to be moved, and soon. We were surprised by the timing, but didn’t riot. Then again, Oladipo was a beloved Hoosier, so we felt good there. And a lot of us really liked Arvydas’ son. :dontknow:


Maybe PJ's versatility as a small ball mobile 5 who can switch to perimeter threats holds value only as a contingency to injury to Sabonis or Goga.


I could agree with this. I’d still plan on signing a 3rd center, but Washington might be the emergency 3rd center in reality.
PJ at the 5 wasn't figured out. Miles got COVID and it all fell apart. Jalen McDaniels was more of a 3 in place of injured Hayward.

But when Hayward was healthy PJ at the 5 worked with Miles off the bench playing 4. Hayward makes things work. The team collapsed due to his loss moreso than LaMelo. We need rim protection in the worst way and PJ won't give you that. He's a legit stretch 4 though. Sabonis gives more on offense than he subtracts on defense and he remains a movable piece if the defense falls apart. I don't think it will. Hornets are very young and still learning concepts, positioning etc.


Yeah. I think either of Miles or Washington, in theory, could provide a lot in a lineup with Warren and Sabonis. I, personally, wouldn’t hate a deal centered around either of them. If they came with the 11, I would be pretty happy. Unless someone else just made a crazy huge offer, that would be a winner to me (at least, from an Indy perspective).
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Re: CHA - IND 

Post#33 » by Xman » Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:38 pm

Wow, just wow. That is not near a Simmons package or other stars. Way overvaluing every player on that roster.

Let's talk centers:
Clearly better than Turner: Embiid, Jokic, Gobert, KAT
Arguably in the same range: Sabonis, Bam, Ayton, Val, Vuc, Wood, Capela
Maybe I missed one or two but the point is there are not many.

Turner is 6'11 and big enough to play with anybody. He can also run. Solid percentages and has enough of an outside shot to create space. His defense was phenomenal lately - block crazy. He is not a star on offense but is a threat. Would be a huge improvement for teams that need an inside presence and can fit most systems. He is not "an oft injured role player."

PJ and Bridges - picks 12 in consecutive drafts. Both are 12/6 guys. I know you are not saying these guys are worth too much. Fringe starters that could be good backups or solid fifth guy on the court. Not playmakers.
Graham back down to 14/5 after a better year last year. Not a good sign when stats descend in a contract year. Amazing stat of same 2 percentage as 3 percentage 37%.
I like Rozier but he is 6'1. His 3 point % is solid. He is also streaky. Not really a sg but not really a pg either - definition of combo guard. Value is limited by $18 mil expiring contract.

Right now, CHA has Hayward, Melo and a bunch of fringe guys. A center like Turner would give them an edge and make things easier for Hayward and Melo.

Saying you would not trade PJ for Turner straight up = homerism (or, in this case "Babe Ruth size Homerism")
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Re: CHA - IND 

Post#34 » by MasterIchiro » Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:41 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:
MasterIchiro wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
I get that it worked for Charlotte, but for Indy, it would require benching Sabonis or Goga in order to play it, as opposed to a Bismack Biyombo or Cody Zeller. We’d just rather not, and would play Washington at the 4. Plus, wasn’t it getting “figured out” by the end of the season? Was it that it was an inherently great play, in and of itself? Or was Washington at the 5 a good play because you didn’t have a Myles/Sabonis/Goga to otherwise take those minutes, so it was better than playing Biyombo/Carey/etc?

As for “rioting” against change like the PG for Sabonis/Oladipo change? Not really. The riot was just that we thought we should be getting a 1st, too. We knew PG had to be moved, and soon. We were surprised by the timing, but didn’t riot. Then again, Oladipo was a beloved Hoosier, so we felt good there. And a lot of us really liked Arvydas’ son. :dontknow:


Maybe PJ's versatility as a small ball mobile 5 who can switch to perimeter threats holds value only as a contingency to injury to Sabonis or Goga.


I could agree with this. I’d still plan on signing a 3rd center, but Washington might be the emergency 3rd center in reality.
PJ at the 5 wasn't figured out. Miles got COVID and it all fell apart. Jalen McDaniels was more of a 3 in place of injured Hayward.

But when Hayward was healthy PJ at the 5 worked with Miles off the bench playing 4. Hayward makes things work. The team collapsed due to his loss moreso than LaMelo. We need rim protection in the worst way and PJ won't give you that. He's a legit stretch 4 though. Sabonis gives more on offense than he subtracts on defense and he remains a movable piece if the defense falls apart. I don't think it will. Hornets are very young and still learning concepts, positioning etc.


Yeah. I think either of Miles or Washington, in theory, could provide a lot in a lineup with Warren and Sabonis. I, personally, wouldn’t hate a deal centered around either of them. If they came with the 11, I would be pretty happy. Unless someone else just made a crazy huge offer, that would be a winner to me (at least, from an Indy perspective).


One glitch here worth noting is the Hornets don't have cap to bring in Turner draft night, so pick 11 is not in play if attached to PJ. PJ + 11 is an impossible combination. Hornets have to address Monk's 13 million cap hold. I think Monk would be in play as an addition to PJ or a 2022 appropriately protected pick. Maybe both. Pick 11 is a Hornet.
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Re: CHA - IND 

Post#35 » by GoBobs » Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:08 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:Also, I’ll push back a bit on the Rozier part, in theory, too. I think Indy would have interest in Rozier, but probably only if one of Brogdon or Levert is traded this offseason, too. I don’t see them trading a starter in Myles for a package centered by a starting caliber guard that would have to come off the bench like Rozier. Plus, if Charlotte is dealing for Myles, I get that Myles is young and could play long-term with Ball, but wouldn’t Charlotte likely prefer to add Myles to Rozier/Hayward/Ball and get a really solid veteran core around Ball and try to solidly make the playoffs? A Rozier/Turner swap makes less sense, as it seems more like just shuffling deck chairs for both teams, rather than a move in a direction for either team.


I like the idea of adding Miles to the vets we have. The big question is what do the pacers want? What does the new coach plan to run? Are they rebuilding or reloading. Nobody really knows right now but them. Do they want 11 + future lightly protected pick and bank the extra cap space? Do they want a player?

I think if we could do 11 and future pick we probably would. Pacers have not traded for picks in the past. If I were the Pacers I would probably go for wiseman and 14 if that was on the table.

We know the Pacers fans on here don’t value Hayward but does the front office? Would they do Hayward + 11. Charlotte has plenty to offer. They have vets, young players with upside, picks. Personally I wouldn’t do Ball, Bridges or PJ, but would listen to deals involving anything else.

I have questions about Turner as well though. Is he going to get pick and rolled out of the game in the playoffs. Is he going to just leave after 2 years. If the ask is to high I am just taking my chances in the draft and free agency.
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Re: CHA - IND 

Post#36 » by SO_MONEY » Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:17 pm

Some of these asks for Turner are ridiculous. PJ is worth more than Turner alone. Rozier might even be worth more. Turner is a 13/7/1 big who is good defensively, but making $18mil. He just is not a big package player and if he brings one IND should be insanely happy, but I don't think he will...I think there is a good chance fans have the valuation wrong on this.
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Re: CHA - IND 

Post#37 » by Xman » Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:29 pm

:o "PJ is worth more than Turner alone. Rozier might be worth more." :o

Dang, if he is that bad, maybe they should give you picks to take him!! :starwars
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Re: CHA - IND 

Post#38 » by Scoot McGroot » Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:41 pm

SO_MONEY wrote:Some of these asks for Turner are ridiculous. PJ is worth more than Turner alone. Rozier might even be worth more. Turner is a 13/7/1 big who is good defensively, but making $18mil. He just is not a big package player and if he brings one IND should be insanely happy, but I don't think he will...I think there is a good chance fans have the valuation wrong on this.


He’s pretty great defensively. A 13/7/1/3+ blocks per night guy that can turn a bad defense into good by himself. If you don’t value defense, I get why you might not expect Turner to get good value. If you value good defense, you might wonder how Turner would go so affordably.
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Re: CHA - IND 

Post#39 » by Scoot McGroot » Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:46 pm

GoBobs wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:Also, I’ll push back a bit on the Rozier part, in theory, too. I think Indy would have interest in Rozier, but probably only if one of Brogdon or Levert is traded this offseason, too. I don’t see them trading a starter in Myles for a package centered by a starting caliber guard that would have to come off the bench like Rozier. Plus, if Charlotte is dealing for Myles, I get that Myles is young and could play long-term with Ball, but wouldn’t Charlotte likely prefer to add Myles to Rozier/Hayward/Ball and get a really solid veteran core around Ball and try to solidly make the playoffs? A Rozier/Turner swap makes less sense, as it seems more like just shuffling deck chairs for both teams, rather than a move in a direction for either team.


I like the idea of adding Miles to the vets we have. The big question is what do the pacers want? What does the new coach plan to run? Are they rebuilding or reloading. Nobody really knows right now but them. Do they want 11 + future lightly protected pick and bank the extra cap space? Do they want a player?

I think if we could do 11 and future pick we probably would. Pacers have not traded for picks in the past. If I were the Pacers I would probably go for wiseman and 14 if that was on the table.

We know the Pacers fans on here don’t value Hayward but does the front office? Would they do Hayward + 11. Charlotte has plenty to offer. They have vets, young players with upside, picks. Personally I wouldn’t do Ball, Bridges or PJ, but would listen to deals involving anything else.

I have questions about Turner as well though. Is he going to get pick and rolled out of the game in the playoffs. Is he going to just leave after 2 years. If the ask is to high I am just taking my chances in the draft and free agency.


I answered a good amount of this a couple posts above. But we do know a couple things. We’re not rebuilding. Pritchard might be willing to, but the owner, Herb Simon, is not. We’d probably value something that helps us now (a player like Washington or Bridges) and something that could help us later (like a pick).

As for Wiseman, there’s less than no interest here, because we simply don’t need another center back. If Myles Turner is getting dealt, it’s to go away from the twin towers approach, and we already have Dom Sabonis and Goga Bitadze at center. We really like all 3 of our centers. Swapping Myles for another developmental center would make us worse now, worse going forward, and would just be a waste of asset management. That’s why most GSW deals on this board tend to include a 3rd team that needs a center to send Wiseman to for better value for Indy.

As for Myles getting pick and rolled out of the playoffs? No. Nowhere near. His defense is pretty darned playable. His defensive weakness is the super strong bigs like Embiid and Jokic. Otherwise, he’s pretty playable in anything. As for if he leaves in 2 years? I think that’s up to y’all. He doesn’t seem the type to be destined for another city. I think as long as he’s paid comparable to his talent level, any team could keep him, as long as it’s a fit for him to help long-term. He’s been awesome in the locker room and the city overall.
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Re: CHA - IND 

Post#40 » by xxSnEaKyPxx » Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:49 pm

SO_MONEY wrote:Some of these asks for Turner are ridiculous. PJ is worth more than Turner alone. Rozier might even be worth more. Turner is a 13/7/1 big who is good defensively, but making $18mil. He just is not a big package player and if he brings one IND should be insanely happy, but I don't think he will...I think there is a good chance fans have the valuation wrong on this.

He isn't just a good defender, he is one of the best defenders in the NBA.

If you happen to be correct and Turner is viewed as essentially worthless around the NBA, fair enough, the Pacers will just keep him(which I'm very much hoping for anyway as he is probably the best player on the Pacers.)

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