NY/TOR/GS with CLE

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NY/TOR/GS with CLE 

Post#1 » by nykballa2k4 » Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:09 pm

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yfvrlnpe
Knicks
trade Mitchell Robinson, Julius Randle, #19, #32
receive VanVleet, Wiseman, #6 (GS 21 pick)
This assumes that no big looming FA's are looking at us, starting the clock by extending Randle puts us more win now. Moving Randle and Mitch for less proven commodities allows us to really put the team in RJ's hands for better/worse and lets us get one more dice roll in the 6-8 pick range. (This does not happen if it's #1-3 obviously). VanVleet is viewed as a bad contract, but his runs parallel to what should be favorable contracts in Wiseman and #6

Warriors
trade Wiggins, Wiseman,#6
receive Randle, Mitchell, Prince, #19
trying to address all the needs. Robinson is a legit starting center, fantastic rim runner, and he states that he can shoot 3's. Randle is an all-star, Prince is the 3-d Wing guy. I think I covered all the needs here. This gives the Warriors a solid 2 year window where they should be a dominant team in the west assuming some health.

Raptors
trade VanVleet, Rodney Hood
receive Andrew Wiggins.

Raptors will have choices in the summer, perhaps to sign a point guard, draft a point guard, but VanVleet does not appear to be "the guy" and this cleans him off the books a year early. Wiggins is a Canada guy so that aspect could be fun, but also fits in well IMO with OG and Siakim. Do Raps follow this by moving assets for Brogdan and Turner? I don't know. But this gives a nice core from the 2, 3, and 4 positions.

Cavaliers
trade Taurean Prince
receive Rodney Hood, #32
One could argue Hood is a better fit for the Cavs, also being a little cheaper just a better idea, but #32 makes this an easy choice. Hood provides more offense, gets out of the way of a muddled front court.


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Re: NY/TOR/GS with CLE 

Post#2 » by Colbinii » Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:11 pm

Bad for Warriors and Raptors, good for New York.
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Re: NY/TOR/GS with CLE 

Post#3 » by Texas Chuck » Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:17 pm

I can't express how bad this is for GSW. Randle is a terrible fit and they pay a premium for a guy who just got badly exposed in the playoffs as a guy who when game-planned for can be shut down by a very mediocre defense.

Knicks manage to sell extremely high on Randle with one year left coming off a playoff series that leaves a bunch of doubts and a guy also with one year left coming off a major injury who has yet to establish he can play starter's minutes.

I don't believe that package lands you #6 let alone getting Wiseman and FVV tossed in as bonus gifts.

Toronto gets nothing for a major downgrade? They just give the Knicks FVV and take Wiggins to be nice?

I'm sorry I totally get being high on the Knicks guys after that great season, but Robinson wasn't really much part of that and the playoffs call into doubt some of Randle's great regular season. But even if he had a great playoffs he doesn't return this as a rental.
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Re: NY/TOR/GS with CLE 

Post#4 » by mademan » Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:26 pm

Wiggins has rehabbed his value away from "arguably worst in the league" status, but he's still far from positive. It's gonna take a lot of incentive for Raps to trade FVV for Wiggins and you have them getting nothing for that swap.

And while Randle is a great talent upgrade, i just dont see the fit at all for GSW unless they have a Green trade lined up
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Re: NY/TOR/GS with CLE 

Post#5 » by PrinceAli » Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:28 pm

Lol Wiggins for FVV? No thanks. Would need the Minnesota pick added to even make that happen.
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Re: NY/TOR/GS with CLE 

Post#6 » by Morris_Shatford » Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:34 pm

While Wiggins has done a lot to move his needle in the last year;
I don't think Toronto should be trading FVV for him.
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Re: NY/TOR/GS with CLE 

Post#7 » by nykballa2k4 » Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:43 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:I can't express how bad this is for GSW. Randle is a terrible fit and they pay a premium for a guy who just got badly exposed in the playoffs as a guy who when game-planned for can be shut down by a very mediocre defense.

Knicks manage to sell extremely high on Randle with one year left coming off a playoff series that leaves a bunch of doubts and a guy also with one year left coming off a major injury who has yet to establish he can play starter's minutes.

I don't believe that package lands you #6 let alone getting Wiseman and FVV tossed in as bonus gifts.

Toronto gets nothing for a major downgrade? They just give the Knicks FVV and take Wiggins to be nice?

I'm sorry I totally get being high on the Knicks guys after that great season, but Robinson wasn't really much part of that and the playoffs call into doubt some of Randle's great regular season. But even if he had a great playoffs he doesn't return this as a rental.


I appreciate the breakdown, but I am kind of surprised by some of your sentiments.
Randle in the role as a lead facilitator is limited. Randle as someone who can take advantage of a 1 on 1, surrounded by elite shooters would be fairly deadly. Randle shot 41% from 3 this season. He can shoot and space. As a 3rd option, he is very good. As a #1, that's where I see your critiques as valid.

VanVleet, as I understand it, is one of the worst contracts in the league. Raptors are not moving him out of goodness in their maple hearts, but because you don't want a starting point guard who shoots <40% and has a eFG% < .50. He is objectively pretty bad.

I am fine with either including the other FRP in the deal, or removing #19, Mitch and Wiseman. Randle (positive value, allstar on bargain contract) for 6 and VanVleets horrible contract seems steep.
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Re: NY/TOR/GS with CLE 

Post#8 » by nykballa2k4 » Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:49 pm

Morris_Shatford wrote:While Wiggins has done a lot to move his needle in the last year;
I don't think Toronto should be trading FVV for him.



Image


So I am wrong about FVV.

Back to the drawing board I go. :oops: :oops:
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Re: NY/TOR/GS with CLE 

Post#9 » by tidho » Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:51 pm

CLE does it but poor Hood, he was miserable here last time.
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Re: NY/TOR/GS with CLE 

Post#10 » by cgf » Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:15 pm

If Julius hadn't just laid an egg in the playoffs I could've seen something around him, Mitch & #21/32 for Wiseman, #14 & that MIN FRP, making sense...especially if he had already signed an extension...but as is I don't think anyone offers anything close to that for him. We're probably better off holding onto him to see whether the 5 games against atlanta were more representative than the 71 games leading up to that; than we are risking selling low for the offers that are likely to be out there.


Getting a perennial top 5/10 guy that can be the #1 option on a championship team is hard & requires luck whether you are trying to land one via the draft, FA, or trade. So with a market like ours, I don't buy that title-or-tank argument when we could have the opportunity to build an attractive destination with the trade pieces to put together a viable package for one of those true superstars...should one ever want to come here.

Just as an example: if Randle proves that he only choked because it was his first time in the playoffs + there had been no crowds all season + having too much on his shoulders, by bouncing back next postseason...while our FO uses these next two summers to add more RJ-to-Julius aged talent like Lavine/Sexton & Lonzo/Brogdon, without handing out trade-value-killing contracts to do so...we would be in position to offer something like Randle / Lavine / Sexton / Barrett + Quickley / Toppin + '21 / '22 draftee + future picks, for a Zion or a Booker; whenever that generation of superstars starts looking for a change.

If Randle proves that the regular season was the fluke, rather than the playoffs; then obviously we change our timeline & focus more on using the draft to build around RJ & the kids...but that's a change in direction that it's too early to make this summer.
dogrufus wrote:Plus the win would put us at .500 and 5 straight wins, making every poster here cream in their pants.

We're Knicks fans. We never get to cream.


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Re: NY/TOR/GS with CLE 

Post#11 » by Morris_Shatford » Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:24 pm

nykballa2k4 wrote:
Morris_Shatford wrote:While Wiggins has done a lot to move his needle in the last year;
I don't think Toronto should be trading FVV for him.



Image


So I am wrong about FVV.

Back to the drawing board I go. :oops: :oops:


I think its just sort of ranks up there as one of those "Likely worth more to us than to most of the NBA" as it pertains to FVV;
He may not be the PG we need assuming Lowry is gone but he is likely the guy who fills that leadership void in the locker room.
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Re: NY/TOR/GS with CLE 

Post#12 » by mademan » Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:30 pm

nykballa2k4 wrote:
Texas Chuck wrote:I can't express how bad this is for GSW. Randle is a terrible fit and they pay a premium for a guy who just got badly exposed in the playoffs as a guy who when game-planned for can be shut down by a very mediocre defense.

Knicks manage to sell extremely high on Randle with one year left coming off a playoff series that leaves a bunch of doubts and a guy also with one year left coming off a major injury who has yet to establish he can play starter's minutes.

I don't believe that package lands you #6 let alone getting Wiseman and FVV tossed in as bonus gifts.

Toronto gets nothing for a major downgrade? They just give the Knicks FVV and take Wiggins to be nice?

I'm sorry I totally get being high on the Knicks guys after that great season, but Robinson wasn't really much part of that and the playoffs call into doubt some of Randle's great regular season. But even if he had a great playoffs he doesn't return this as a rental.


I appreciate the breakdown, but I am kind of surprised by some of your sentiments.
Randle in the role as a lead facilitator is limited. Randle as someone who can take advantage of a 1 on 1, surrounded by elite shooters would be fairly deadly. Randle shot 41% from 3 this season. He can shoot and space. As a 3rd option, he is very good. As a #1, that's where I see your critiques as valid.

VanVleet, as I understand it, is one of the worst contracts in the league. Raptors are not moving him out of goodness in their maple hearts, but because you don't want a starting point guard who shoots <40% and has a eFG% < .50. He is objectively pretty bad.

I am fine with either including the other FRP in the deal, or removing #19, Mitch and Wiseman. Randle (positive value, allstar on bargain contract) for 6 and VanVleets horrible contract seems steep.


FVV is an above average starting guard getting paid 19 mill/year. You need to re-evaluate what 20mill gets you in this league if you think he's a horrible contract
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Re: NY/TOR/GS with CLE 

Post#13 » by Marmoset » Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:32 pm

nykballa2k4 wrote: I appreciate the breakdown, but I am kind of surprised by some of your sentiments.
Randle in the role as a lead facilitator is limited. Randle as someone who can take advantage of a 1 on 1, surrounded by elite shooters would be fairly deadly. Randle shot 41% from 3 this season. He can shoot and space. As a 3rd option, he is very good. As a #1, that's where I see your critiques as valid.

VanVleet, as I understand it, is one of the worst contracts in the league. Raptors are not moving him out of goodness in their maple hearts, but because you don't want a starting point guard who shoots <40% and has a eFG% < .50. He is objectively pretty bad.

I am fine with either including the other FRP in the deal, or removing #19, Mitch and Wiseman. Randle (positive value, allstar on bargain contract) for 6 and VanVleets horrible contract seems steep.


The Raptors basically just signed FVV. If they thought the contract was 'one of the worst contracts in the league', they simply wouldn't have offered it! Only time will tell how the contract is. They certainly aren't going to move him right now for a worse player on a worse contract.

For the Warriors, Randle is only a bargain contract for one more season, then he will become a very high priced older player. I think he had a spectacular season and the proposal is interesting but I doubt the Warriors are willing to give up those key pieces for Randle. Randle is difficult to evaluate because players suddenly taking a huge leap at his age is uncommon - is it just a career year or will he sustain it?

I don't think everything in here is bad, but I think your evaluation of contracts being good/bad is way off from just about everyone else.
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Re: NY/TOR/GS with CLE 

Post#14 » by Commodor » Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:41 pm

Yeah GSW has zero interest in this move.

I'd be surprised if they even considered it with only Wiseman or #6 included.
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Re: NY/TOR/GS with CLE 

Post#15 » by nykballa2k4 » Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:50 pm

cgf wrote:If Julius hadn't just laid an egg in the playoffs I could've seen something around him, Mitch & #21/32 for Wiseman, #14 & that MIN FRP, making sense...especially if he had already signed an extension...but as is I don't think anyone offers anything close to that for him. We're probably better off holding onto him to see whether the 5 games against atlanta were more representative than the 71 games leading up to that; than we are risking selling low for the offers that are likely to be out there.


Getting a perennial top 5/10 guy that can be the #1 option on a championship team is hard & requires luck whether you are trying to land one via the draft, FA, or trade. So with a market like ours, I don't buy that title-or-tank argument when we could have the opportunity to build an attractive destination with the trade pieces to put together a viable package for one of those true superstars...should one ever want to come here.

Just as an example: if Randle proves that he only choked because it was his first time in the playoffs + there had been no crowds all season + having too much on his shoulders, by bouncing back next postseason...while our FO uses these next two summers to add more RJ-to-Julius aged talent like Lavine/Sexton & Lonzo/Brogdon, without handing out trade-value-killing contracts to do so...we would be in position to offer something like Randle / Lavine / Sexton / Barrett + Quickley / Toppin + '21 / '22 draftee + future picks, for a Zion or a Booker; whenever that generation of superstars starts looking for a change.

If Randle proves that the regular season was the fluke, rather than the playoffs; then obviously we change our timeline & focus more on using the draft to build around RJ & the kids...but that's a change in direction that it's too early to make this summer.


There are only a few teams that make sense for Randle IMO because he is really better off where he can start and fit in as an efficient 20+ ppg supporting scorer. Wizards, Blazers, Warriors, Clippers off the jump and then you have to factor in contracts, assets they can give etc. You are not moving an all-star entering his prime for a dice roll of a pick in the 10+ range.
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Re: NY/TOR/GS with CLE 

Post#16 » by cgf » Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:24 pm

nykballa2k4 wrote:
cgf wrote:If Julius hadn't just laid an egg in the playoffs I could've seen something around him, Mitch & #21/32 for Wiseman, #14 & that MIN FRP, making sense...especially if he had already signed an extension...but as is I don't think anyone offers anything close to that for him. We're probably better off holding onto him to see whether the 5 games against atlanta were more representative than the 71 games leading up to that; than we are risking selling low for the offers that are likely to be out there.


Getting a perennial top 5/10 guy that can be the #1 option on a championship team is hard & requires luck whether you are trying to land one via the draft, FA, or trade. So with a market like ours, I don't buy that title-or-tank argument when we could have the opportunity to build an attractive destination with the trade pieces to put together a viable package for one of those true superstars...should one ever want to come here.

Just as an example: if Randle proves that he only choked because it was his first time in the playoffs + there had been no crowds all season + having too much on his shoulders, by bouncing back next postseason...while our FO uses these next two summers to add more RJ-to-Julius aged talent like Lavine/Sexton & Lonzo/Brogdon, without handing out trade-value-killing contracts to do so...we would be in position to offer something like Randle / Lavine / Sexton / Barrett + Quickley / Toppin + '21 / '22 draftee + future picks, for a Zion or a Booker; whenever that generation of superstars starts looking for a change.

If Randle proves that the regular season was the fluke, rather than the playoffs; then obviously we change our timeline & focus more on using the draft to build around RJ & the kids...but that's a change in direction that it's too early to make this summer.


There are only a few teams that make sense for Randle IMO because he is really better off where he can start and fit in as an efficient 20+ ppg supporting scorer. Wizards, Blazers, Warriors, Clippers off the jump and then you have to factor in contracts, assets they can give etc. You are not moving an all-star entering his prime for a dice roll of a pick in the 10+ range.

Agreed, that's why I'm doubtful anyone makes the kind of offer that would actually make sense for us to sell Randle for.
dogrufus wrote:Plus the win would put us at .500 and 5 straight wins, making every poster here cream in their pants.

We're Knicks fans. We never get to cream.


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Re: NY/TOR/GS with CLE 

Post#17 » by gswhoops » Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:46 pm

cgf wrote:
nykballa2k4 wrote:
cgf wrote:If Julius hadn't just laid an egg in the playoffs I could've seen something around him, Mitch & #21/32 for Wiseman, #14 & that MIN FRP, making sense...especially if he had already signed an extension...but as is I don't think anyone offers anything close to that for him. We're probably better off holding onto him to see whether the 5 games against atlanta were more representative than the 71 games leading up to that; than we are risking selling low for the offers that are likely to be out there.


Getting a perennial top 5/10 guy that can be the #1 option on a championship team is hard & requires luck whether you are trying to land one via the draft, FA, or trade. So with a market like ours, I don't buy that title-or-tank argument when we could have the opportunity to build an attractive destination with the trade pieces to put together a viable package for one of those true superstars...should one ever want to come here.

Just as an example: if Randle proves that he only choked because it was his first time in the playoffs + there had been no crowds all season + having too much on his shoulders, by bouncing back next postseason...while our FO uses these next two summers to add more RJ-to-Julius aged talent like Lavine/Sexton & Lonzo/Brogdon, without handing out trade-value-killing contracts to do so...we would be in position to offer something like Randle / Lavine / Sexton / Barrett + Quickley / Toppin + '21 / '22 draftee + future picks, for a Zion or a Booker; whenever that generation of superstars starts looking for a change.

If Randle proves that the regular season was the fluke, rather than the playoffs; then obviously we change our timeline & focus more on using the draft to build around RJ & the kids...but that's a change in direction that it's too early to make this summer.


There are only a few teams that make sense for Randle IMO because he is really better off where he can start and fit in as an efficient 20+ ppg supporting scorer. Wizards, Blazers, Warriors, Clippers off the jump and then you have to factor in contracts, assets they can give etc. You are not moving an all-star entering his prime for a dice roll of a pick in the 10+ range.

Agreed, that's why I'm doubtful anyone makes the kind of offer that would actually make sense for us to sell Randle for.

Randle simply isn’t a fit in GS because he’s a PF only, and Draymond can’t handle being a full time C and still have any gas left in the tank come playoff time.

I actually think that a CJ for Randle deal might be sneaky good for both sides but doubt either team has the stones to go for it.
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Re: NY/TOR/GS with CLE 

Post#18 » by jbk1234 » Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:07 pm

tidho wrote:CLE does it but poor Hood, he was miserable here last time.
I'm a little meh tbh. All these trades where we're shipping out the two or three guys besides Garland who can actually shoot from 3 don't make a lot of sense to me, at least not in a vacuum. If we have a specific player in mind with the cap savings, and if an agent let it slip he'd like to sign here at an agreeable number, okay.

Plus, having Prince on an expiring deal at that figure could prove valuable when everyone is looking to shed salary.

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Re: NY/TOR/GS with CLE 

Post#19 » by cgf » Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:12 pm

gswhoops wrote:
cgf wrote:
nykballa2k4 wrote:
There are only a few teams that make sense for Randle IMO because he is really better off where he can start and fit in as an efficient 20+ ppg supporting scorer. Wizards, Blazers, Warriors, Clippers off the jump and then you have to factor in contracts, assets they can give etc. You are not moving an all-star entering his prime for a dice roll of a pick in the 10+ range.

Agreed, that's why I'm doubtful anyone makes the kind of offer that would actually make sense for us to sell Randle for.

Randle simply isn’t a fit in GS because he’s a PF only, and Draymond can’t handle being a full time C and still have any gas left in the tank come playoff time.

I actually think that a CJ for Randle deal might be sneaky good for both sides but doubt either team has the stones to go for it.

That was why I included a Robinson-Wiseman swap in this theoretical world where Julius hadn't shat the bed against Atlanta & our FO wanted to sell high on him to jumpstart the rebuild. Mitch can't shoot, but now that Thibs taught him to stop fouling, he's an excellent rim-protector, PNR-defender, and rollman...though we didn't utilize that at all this season...who does very well in space when switched onto smaller players & can do work on the offensive glass if you want him to.

Though I think this is all just hypothetical and we'll never see it in action to know for sure; (IMO) a Randle, Draymond & Robinson big man trio would be fantastic alongside Steph & Klay, as all 3 are excellent & versatile defenders. Julius could do a lot of the things draymond has done in your offense over the years when playing with Steph & Klay; while also having the ability to burn guys 1-on-1 & shot over 40% from 3...plus he could carry the load when either (or both) of the splash bros rested if Kerr staggered their minutes around.

With Wiggins growth defensively filling that final starting spot and battling Mitch/Draymond to be the 4th option; I think that team would make a lot of noise and could put some more banners in the rafters if Steph & Klay age well from here.


...but I also chalk a lot of Julius' struggles against Atlanta, up to it being his first time in the playoffs, not having had fans all season, and us putting too much on his shoulders without giving him enough help. If it turns out that he just always wilts in the playoffs, then ignore everything I just said :lol:
dogrufus wrote:Plus the win would put us at .500 and 5 straight wins, making every poster here cream in their pants.

We're Knicks fans. We never get to cream.


cgmw wrote:Basically, in conclusion: I'd like Dolan to get off my lawn.
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Re: NY/TOR/GS with CLE 

Post#20 » by azwfan » Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:06 pm

PrinceAli wrote:Lol Wiggins for FVV? No thanks. Would need the Minnesota pick added to even make that happen.

The Minnesota pick was added, unfortunately NY took it for themselves. :lol:
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