Woj: Kemba to OKC, Horford to BOS

[shrink]

Btw don’t you think Presti’s office is like this?

Presti: Hey intern - which teams still have picks remaining, somewhere in the 2021-23 drafts?
Intern: I think Boston does
Presti: What are you standing around for? Get them on the phone!

[amcoolio]

I SO want to bump that Kemba/Rozier trade thread a few years ago and just dump on all the people that laughed at us

[jbk1234]

Without fail, now Kemba is the worst player in the association since he no longer plays for Boston

I think he's the hardest to trade due to his knees and many of us were saying that before Boston traded him.

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I mean he literally can't be the hardest to trade because he is the most recent to be traded....

For a guy who cost a 1st to move last summer with an additional 1st attached to him. Also, he went to one of three teams that doesn't plan on competing over the next couple years. The Rockets have Wall and the Pistons are still paying Blake.

But Stevens doesn't strike me as a dumb guy. If he could've traded Kemba and TT for Adams and Bledsoe, he would've.

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[Scoot McGroot]

Without fail, now Kemba is the worst player in the association since he no longer plays for Boston

And Moses Brown is a legit prospect with mid first value.

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I don’t know I’d go that far. Late 1st, maybe. He had some huge rebounding numbers and blocked some shots, but he got pushed around easy and probably wasn’t a good defender overall. Add in his absolute lack of offensive game outside of lobs and put backs, and I think he’s not quite a mid-1st type prospect. But on his contract, maybe he’ll get there. There’s time. He’s clearly 3rd string in Boston, though.

[psman2]

Without fail, now Kemba is the worst player in the association since he no longer plays for Boston

And Moses Brown is a legit prospect with mid first value.

Sent from my SM-A716U using RealGM mobile app

I don’t know I’d go that far. Late 1st, maybe. He had some huge rebounding numbers and blocked some shots, but he got pushed around easy and probably wasn’t a good defender overall. Add in his absolute lack of offensive game outside of lobs and put backs, and I think he’s not quite a mid-1st type prospect. But on his contract, maybe he’ll get there. There’s time. He’s clearly 3rd string in Boston, though.

I don't think you quite got the tone of his post.

[BlazersBroncos]

I have never seen the value of a player traded from one team to another increase at the rate that Moses Brown's just did.

I have seen people giving him a mid-1st round evaluation. If a OKC fan posted #16 for Brown last night they would have been tarred-and-feathered.

[Texas Chuck]

I SO want to bump that Kemba/Rozier trade thread a few years ago and just dump on all the people that laughed at us

Do not. If you think nothing has changed in two years you are the one who should be laughed at.

[Scoot McGroot]

And Moses Brown is a legit prospect with mid first value.

Sent from my SM-A716U using RealGM mobile app

I don’t know I’d go that far. Late 1st, maybe. He had some huge rebounding numbers and blocked some shots, but he got pushed around easy and probably wasn’t a good defender overall. Add in his absolute lack of offensive game outside of lobs and put backs, and I think he’s not quite a mid-1st type prospect. But on his contract, maybe he’ll get there. There’s time. He’s clearly 3rd string in Boston, though.

I don't think you quite got the tone of his post.

Yup. I clearly did not.

TO MY BENEFIT: I also messed up and posted it three times and had to delete two of them. So there!

[cl2117]

No. I act like free agents should be able to select their team if that team has mutual interest. I do not think players under contract should be able to just go wherever they want and have never remotely suggested any such thing.

Push back on my actual position but do not misrepresent it this badly.

I'm not trying to misrepresent it purposefully.
.

Read what your wrote again. You claimed I was saying players should be able to go wherever they want whenever they want.

Where did you get that from me saying free agents should be able to choose their team? Like that's anywhere near the same ballpark.

You are bothered by me using Drummond as the poster boy as opposed to Blake. Fair enough. I select Drummond because he is the player who really caused most of the initial angst, but admittedly using him instead of Blake does help to minimize the impact of buyout guys and so we should focus on the very best one.

I'll absolutely own that and work to do better. But cmon now. This notion that I just want players changing teams whenever they feel like contracts be damned? That's just insulting to both of us.

I'm not saying I didn't misrepresent you, I'm saying I didn't do it on purpose. I meant to say free agents/buyouts, I just said players in general. Didn't intentionally do it though to try to build a strawman or anything. I can own that. I frankly find it insulting for you to immediately think that I'm purposefully trying to twist your words to change what your argument is as opposed to it being a mistake on my part. But I'll take my leave rather than derail any further.

[Dn4sty]

Moses Brown is a nice story, but I don’t see him becoming much more than a 2nd center at best.

[zimpy27]

I have never seen the value of a player traded from one team to another increase at the rate that Moses Brown's just did.

I have seen people giving him a mid-1st round evaluation. If a OKC fan posted #16 for Brown last night they would have been tarred-and-feathered.

I mean he's a 21 year old C that has shown he can compete in this league and is locked in for 3 more years at 5m total.

I'm guessing the median of teams would choose the certainty of that over any pick 20 or later, right?

[SmartWentCrazy]

I have never seen the value of a player traded from one team to another increase at the rate that Moses Brown's just did.

I have seen people giving him a mid-1st round evaluation. If a OKC fan posted #16 for Brown last night they would have been tarred-and-feathered.

Moses Brown utterly destroyed the Celtics this year. Had like 19 rebounds in the first half. The image sticks out in our heads lol.

He’s a cheap, developmental third big.

[LightTheBeam]

I have never seen the value of a player traded from one team to another increase at the rate that Moses Brown's just did.

I have seen people giving him a mid-1st round evaluation. If a OKC fan posted #16 for Brown last night they would have been tarred-and-feathered.

I mean he's a 21 year old C that has shown he can compete in this league and is locked in for 3 more years at 5m total.

I'm guessing the median of teams would choose the certainty of that over any pick 20 or later, right?

100%

This kid is worth something.

[amcoolio]

I SO want to bump that Kemba/Rozier trade thread a few years ago and just dump on all the people that laughed at us

Do not. If you think nothing has changed in two years you are the one who should be laughed at.

Maybe stop going out of your way to give Charlotte credit that they knew Kemba was on the wrong side of his playing career or that Rozier had potential

When that trade/signing happened, we were ridiculed endlessly on this board and no mod seemed to care

This trade is great entertainment

[amcoolio]

Kemba is actually a pretty good fit with SGA. Kemba is an off ball SG, not a playmaker, that needs to play with a playmaking defensive PG at this point of his career.

You don't want Kemba initiating or running your offense.

Here's what will happen -

OKC will keep Kemba, he will look great, and they flip him for first rounder/assets at the deadline or after the season

[Texas Chuck]

I SO want to bump that Kemba/Rozier trade thread a few years ago and just dump on all the people that laughed at us

Do not. If you think nothing has changed in two years you are the one who should be laughed at.

Maybe stop going out of your way to give Charlotte credit that they knew Kemba was on the wrong side of his playing career or that Rozier had potential

When that trade/signing happened, we were ridiculed endlessly on this board and no mod seemed to care

This trade is great entertainment

I'm sorry. But when teams make a trade that is perceived as bad its not our job as board mods to protect you from opinions you don't want to hear.

And yes if you want to state that the Hornets knew Kemba was damaged goods and knew that overpaying Rozier based on what had been shown because they knew he would be better than everyone thought I have zero issues with it. That could very well be true on both accounts.

But bumping it to mock the board for saying that Boston signed a much better player who was coming off seasons in which he played 81,79,80, and 82 games(so you know healthy) at that time is just stupid.

[nykballa2k4]

I agree with TC’s framing here. These are two separate transactions and should be seen as such.

Transaction #1 is between the player (Kemba) and their current team (OKC). If the player and team can come to a mutually beneficial arrangement where the player gives back some money and gets to hit free agency early as a result, then they can execute it. Detroit benefitted more from saving $15M than keeping Blake on the roster, so they gave him a buyout. It wasn’t an act of charity.

Transaction #2 is wherever the player chooses to sign in FA. If Kemba would rather play for the Lakers for the TPMLE than the Knicks for $20M, that’s his right and I’m not sure how you “fix” that without fundamentally breaking the free movement of players.

Other than some minor fixes around the edges (maybe you limit in-season buyouts to players in the final year of their contract?) I don’t see how you solve the “problem” of players being willing to take less to play for a better team without radically changing the way the NBA offseason is conducted.

I understand your point, but in real life, these aren’t two separate transactions. The player’s agent has already made the phone calls, and his player decides whether to negotiate a buy out knowing how much and where the next offers will be. The second transaction affects the player’s decision on the first.

The NBA head office has it’s overriding provisions for two, legal transactions to be overruled, and it’s when they block a deal for circumvention. To me, this is the loophole here for in-season buy outs. It may help the individual teams, but unless the NBA wants to start the impossible task of rewriting it’s parity rules to not be based on players’ salaries, but rather their impact, the current system is unfair to most teams in the league. Any time a player wants to sacrifice money to give a team a talent boost - that’s unfair. But in the off-season, at least they have the deterrent of losing a season’s worth of higher salary. In-season buyouts don’t even do that - they get paid market value for the majority of the season by the first team, and then only take a small nick to play for less than market.

Playing for less than your worth is the door that David West used (and thanks for reminding me of his name - I’ve been trying to remember it for a month!). And we are seeing right now that the playoffs have been impacted by Blake Griffin, who’s production has been worth far more than his vet min contract. The loophole remains for an even better player, who may have already made his fortune, to completely unbalance a championship. I think before that happens, to help maintain league parity, this loophole needs to be closed.

Simple solution: If a player is under contract with another team (not including stretch years) the team signing the player has to give up compensation to be decided at the end of each season a player is with a new team.
IE player gives up 30M, makes an all-star team, team who signs him has to give former team next available FRP.

Player has to be making more than MLE for this to trigger.

[amcoolio]

Do not. If you think nothing has changed in two years you are the one who should be laughed at.

Maybe stop going out of your way to give Charlotte credit that they knew Kemba was on the wrong side of his playing career or that Rozier had potential

When that trade/signing happened, we were ridiculed endlessly on this board and no mod seemed to care

This trade is great entertainment

I'm sorry. But when teams make a trade that is perceived as bad its not our job as board mods to protect you from opinions you don't want to hear.

And yes if you want to state that the Hornets knew Kemba was damaged goods and knew that overpaying Rozier based on what had been shown because they knew he would be better than everyone thought I have zero issues with it. That could very well be true on both accounts.

But bumping it to mock the board for saying that Boston signed a much better player who was coming off seasons in which he played 81,79,80, and 82 games(so you know healthy) at that time is just stupid.

'
I've been on RealGM long enough not to bump old threads, it solves no purpose. My point is that people overreact all the time on this board when at least 50% of the overreactions are just plain wrong, they think with emotions or what the media tells them to think. Anyway, I won't derail the thread any longer.

[gswhoops]

I agree with TC’s framing here. These are two separate transactions and should be seen as such.

Transaction #1 is between the player (Kemba) and their current team (OKC). If the player and team can come to a mutually beneficial arrangement where the player gives back some money and gets to hit free agency early as a result, then they can execute it. Detroit benefitted more from saving $15M than keeping Blake on the roster, so they gave him a buyout. It wasn’t an act of charity.

Transaction #2 is wherever the player chooses to sign in FA. If Kemba would rather play for the Lakers for the TPMLE than the Knicks for $20M, that’s his right and I’m not sure how you “fix” that without fundamentally breaking the free movement of players.

Other than some minor fixes around the edges (maybe you limit in-season buyouts to players in the final year of their contract?) I don’t see how you solve the “problem” of players being willing to take less to play for a better team without radically changing the way the NBA offseason is conducted.

I understand your point, but in real life, these aren’t two separate transactions. The player’s agent has already made the phone calls, and his player decides whether to negotiate a buy out knowing how much and where the next offers will be. The second transaction affects the player’s decision on the first.

The NBA head office has it’s overriding provisions for two, legal transactions to be overruled, and it’s when they block a deal for circumvention. To me, this is the loophole here for in-season buy outs. It may help the individual teams, but unless the NBA wants to start the impossible task of rewriting it’s parity rules to not be based on players’ salaries, but rather their impact, the current system is unfair to most teams in the league. Any time a player wants to sacrifice money to give a team a talent boost - that’s unfair. But in the off-season, at least they have the deterrent of losing a season’s worth of higher salary. In-season buyouts don’t even do that - they get paid market value for the majority of the season by the first team, and then only take a small nick to play for less than market.

Playing for less than your worth is the door that David West used (and thanks for reminding me of his name - I’ve been trying to remember it for a month!). And we are seeing right now that the playoffs have been impacted by Blake Griffin, who’s production has been worth far more than his vet min contract. The loophole remains for an even better player, who may have already made his fortune, to completely unbalance a championship. I think before that happens, to help maintain league parity, this loophole needs to be closed.

I'm fine, at least conceptually, with putting additional limitations on in-season buyouts because I agree that they're a different beast that offseason buyouts. I'm not sure how that looks in practice though - do you ban them completely? Limit them to players in the final year of their contract? Make them pass through waivers or some kind of bidding system before they're free agents?

I do think that this whole discussion is putting way more emphasis on the player "forcing" their way out, and ignoring that the player is giving up money, sometimes very significant money, because they want to play for a contender. Would this discussion be all that different if Blake had negotiated a buyout for the same amount last offseason and then signed with Brooklyn for the minimum?

At the end of the day I don't see a way around the fundamental "problem" (if you think it is one) that sometimes players will be willing to take less money to play for a better team. You'd have to completely up-end free agency and IMO the cure would be far worse than the disease.

[nykballa2k4]

Do not. If you think nothing has changed in two years you are the one who should be laughed at.

Maybe stop going out of your way to give Charlotte credit that they knew Kemba was on the wrong side of his playing career or that Rozier had potential

When that trade/signing happened, we were ridiculed endlessly on this board and no mod seemed to care

This trade is great entertainment

I'm sorry. But when teams make a trade that is perceived as bad its not our job as board mods to protect you from opinions you don't want to hear.

And yes if you want to state that the Hornets knew Kemba was damaged goods and knew that overpaying Rozier based on what had been shown because they knew he would be better than everyone thought I have zero issues with it. That could very well be true on both accounts.

But bumping it to mock the board for saying that Boston signed a much better player who was coming off seasons in which he played 81,79,80, and 82 games(so you know healthy) at that time is just stupid.

To be real, that's always the gamble when you move for a player who relies heavily on athleticism at an older or just-past-prime age.

Not that this deal will happen, but if Pels moved Ingram 1:1 for Lillard, day 1 it looks like a steal for Pelicans. But if Lillard gets hurt and loses mobility all of a sudden Portland won the trade in a landslide.

Can some things be predicted like the Amare injury? Yeah. But the gamble there was Amare would draw stars to NY. It didn't work, but that was not necessarily a horrible idea.