Cle / Orl

Moderators: loserX, Trader_Joe, Mamba4Goat, Andre Roberstan, BullyKing, Texas Chuck, pacers33granger, HartfordWhalers

jbk1234
Forum Mod - Cavs
Forum Mod - Cavs
Posts: 43,876
And1: 25,006
Joined: Dec 22, 2010
   

Re: Cle / Orl 

Post#21 » by jbk1234 » Sun Sep 12, 2021 6:01 pm

JJ_PR wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:The Cavs have zero reason to trade for Isaac as currently constructed. The O.P. is a Sexton fan who doesn't want him traded for Simmons so he's proposing alternatives.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app


Bingo! I think he's our most talented player overall & we should do everything in our power to keep him.


I get that, but then you really need is a taller point guard, or even a point forward, who can shoot because Sexton needs maximum spacing. Brining in Isaac doesn't fix the problem for the Cavs. I suspect that as far as the Cavs are concerned, that ship sailed last deadline when Alonzo Ball was still on the Pelicans roster. Because he's a great fit next to Lavine as well and I don't see the Bulls giving him up. Teams don't trade multi-skilled point forwards who can shoot. You build around those guys.

What you don't want to do is trade a premium asset for a guy who can't do what you need him to do to build around Sexton because you still won't have fixed the underlying problem and you'll be down the asset. The Browns did that by reaching on QBs late in the first round for decades. They still didn't have a starting caliber QB and they also didn't have that late first.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
JJ_PR
Starter
Posts: 2,051
And1: 1,571
Joined: Mar 19, 2015
     

Re: Cle / Orl 

Post#22 » by JJ_PR » Sun Sep 12, 2021 6:07 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
JJ_PR wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:The Cavs have zero reason to trade for Isaac as currently constructed. The O.P. is a Sexton fan who doesn't want him traded for Simmons so he's proposing alternatives.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app


Bingo! I think he's our most talented player overall & we should do everything in our power to keep him.


I get that, but then you really need is a taller point guard, or even a point forward, who can shoot because Sexton needs maximum spacing. Brining in Isaac doesn't fix the problem for the Cavs. I suspect that as far as the Cavs are concerned, that ship sailed last deadline when Alonzo Ball was still on the Pelicans roster. Because he's a great fit next to Lavine as well and I don't see the Bulls giving him up. Teams don't trade multi-skilled point forwards who can shoot. You build around those guys.

What you don't want to do is trade a premium asset for a guy who can't do what you need him to do to build around Sexton because you still won't have fixed the underlying problem and you'll be down the asset. The Browns did that by reaching on QBs late in the first round for decades. They still didn't have a starting caliber QB and they also didn't have that late first.


This is why we trade for Rubio in the first place, right? He's a good fit next to Sexton.
Sean Marks (Nets GM) "There are no shortcuts. Strategic thinking wins."

Bologna Smasher wrote:I'd rather go with the team full of kings than the team with just one.

February 12, 2019.
jbk1234
Forum Mod - Cavs
Forum Mod - Cavs
Posts: 43,876
And1: 25,006
Joined: Dec 22, 2010
   

Re: Cle / Orl 

Post#23 » by jbk1234 » Sun Sep 12, 2021 6:12 pm

JJ_PR wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
JJ_PR wrote:
Bingo! I think he's our most talented player overall & we should do everything in our power to keep him.


I get that, but then you really need is a taller point guard, or even a point forward, who can shoot because Sexton needs maximum spacing. Brining in Isaac doesn't fix the problem for the Cavs. I suspect that as far as the Cavs are concerned, that ship sailed last deadline when Alonzo Ball was still on the Pelicans roster. Because he's a great fit next to Lavine as well and I don't see the Bulls giving him up. Teams don't trade multi-skilled point forwards who can shoot. You build around those guys.

What you don't want to do is trade a premium asset for a guy who can't do what you need him to do to build around Sexton because you still won't have fixed the underlying problem and you'll be down the asset. The Browns did that by reaching on QBs late in the first round for decades. They still didn't have a starting caliber QB and they also didn't have that late first.


This is why we trade for Rubio in the first place, right? He's a good fit next to Sexton.


I think we traded for Rubio because our backup PG was Dotson who we just cut rather than invite back to camp.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
User avatar
babyjax13
RealGM
Posts: 22,239
And1: 8,500
Joined: Jul 02, 2006
Location: Tuscaloosa Alabama
Contact:
     

Re: Cle / Orl 

Post#24 » by babyjax13 » Sun Sep 12, 2021 6:54 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:I have Love's net nearly $40M in dead money offsetting the value of that pick. Unless that pick returns top 4 which even best scenario its 50/50 with these lotto odds, Love is more negative than the pick is positive and thus its just giving Isaac away for free. Which with his injuries could certainly end up being a value win, but if I'm as bad as Orlando I'm keeping my high risk/high reward player over eating Love and getting pick 7. Whoopee. Where does that ever get me?


I agree Love's contract to *most teams* outweighs a high lottery pick because it locks them down so much with a ton of uncertainty. But for a team that is realistically going nowhere for the life of his contract? I think they should be all over getting an unprotected pick. I do agree that something else is needed to compensate for Isaac - maybe a Sexton for Hampton swap? RJ would be a nice fit with Garland and looked good in Orlando, and for Orlando, Suggs is a big guard and I think would be really fun with Sexton + offset some of his weaknesses...and Sexton is so much better than Anthony.
Image

JazzMatt13 wrote:just because I think aliens probably have to do with JFK, doesn't mean my theory that Jazz will never get Wiggins, isn't true.

JColl
kobe_vs_jordan
General Manager
Posts: 7,501
And1: 3,458
Joined: Jan 07, 2012
Location: Atl
   

Re: Cle / Orl 

Post#25 » by kobe_vs_jordan » Sun Sep 12, 2021 7:15 pm

babyjax13 wrote:I agree Love's contract to *most teams* outweighs a high lottery pick because it locks them down so much with a ton of uncertainty. But for a team that is realistically going nowhere for the life of his contract? I think they should be all over getting an unprotected pick. I do agree that something else is needed to compensate for Isaac - maybe a Sexton for Hampton swap? RJ would be a nice fit with Garland and looked good in Orlando, and for Orlando, Suggs is a big guard and I think would be really fun with Sexton + offset some of his weaknesses...and Sexton is so much better than Anthony.

I was with you word for word till the Sexton for Hampton swap. Cavs trading highest ceiling player and best pick for Isaac and RJ?

Sexton has rookie max player potential IMO . Him taken one more leap would put him in elite territory I don't think he too far in talent from a player like De'Arron fox.
User avatar
TGW
RealGM
Posts: 10,820
And1: 4,298
Joined: Oct 22, 2010

Re: Cle / Orl 

Post#26 » by TGW » Sun Sep 12, 2021 7:15 pm

Terrible for Orlando. Awesome for the Cavs.
Some random troll wrote:Not to sound negative, but this team is owned by an arrogant cheapskate, managed by a moron and coached by an idiot. Recipe for disaster.
User avatar
babyjax13
RealGM
Posts: 22,239
And1: 8,500
Joined: Jul 02, 2006
Location: Tuscaloosa Alabama
Contact:
     

Re: Cle / Orl 

Post#27 » by babyjax13 » Sun Sep 12, 2021 7:20 pm

kobe_vs_jordan wrote:
babyjax13 wrote:I agree Love's contract to *most teams* outweighs a high lottery pick because it locks them down so much with a ton of uncertainty. But for a team that is realistically going nowhere for the life of his contract? I think they should be all over getting an unprotected pick. I do agree that something else is needed to compensate for Isaac - maybe a Sexton for Hampton swap? RJ would be a nice fit with Garland and looked good in Orlando, and for Orlando, Suggs is a big guard and I think would be really fun with Sexton + offset some of his weaknesses...and Sexton is so much better than Anthony.

I was with you word for word till the Sexton for Hampton swap. Cavs trading highest ceiling player and best pick for Isaac and RJ?

Sexton has rookie max player potential IMO . Him taken one more leap would put him in elite territory I don't think he too far in talent from a player like De'Arron fox.


Well, they are trading Kevin Love and getting a nice fit long-term next to Mobley (I actually really don't think Isaac is going to last in the NBA, unfortunately, but he seems to be highly valued). Maybe it could be Okoro added instead, he'd be fun with Suggs, too.
Image

JazzMatt13 wrote:just because I think aliens probably have to do with JFK, doesn't mean my theory that Jazz will never get Wiggins, isn't true.

JColl
kobe_vs_jordan
General Manager
Posts: 7,501
And1: 3,458
Joined: Jan 07, 2012
Location: Atl
   

Re: Cle / Orl 

Post#28 » by kobe_vs_jordan » Sun Sep 12, 2021 8:13 pm

babyjax13 wrote:
kobe_vs_jordan wrote:
babyjax13 wrote:I agree Love's contract to *most teams* outweighs a high lottery pick because it locks them down so much with a ton of uncertainty. But for a team that is realistically going nowhere for the life of his contract? I think they should be all over getting an unprotected pick. I do agree that something else is needed to compensate for Isaac - maybe a Sexton for Hampton swap? RJ would be a nice fit with Garland and looked good in Orlando, and for Orlando, Suggs is a big guard and I think would be really fun with Sexton + offset some of his weaknesses...and Sexton is so much better than Anthony.

I was with you word for word till the Sexton for Hampton swap. Cavs trading highest ceiling player and best pick for Isaac and RJ?

Sexton has rookie max player potential IMO . Him taken one more leap would put him in elite territory I don't think he too far in talent from a player like De'Arron fox.


Well, they are trading Kevin Love and getting a nice fit long-term next to Mobley (I actually really don't think Isaac is going to last in the NBA, unfortunately, but he seems to be highly valued). Maybe it could be Okoro added instead, he'd be fun with Suggs, too.

Think Garland - Hampton swap may be easier to swallow . Or protect the pick . There is some value to fill .

I understand Love contract is ugly but Ross and Issac make the same amount of money . Risk on Isaac being dead money due to injury.
User avatar
babyjax13
RealGM
Posts: 22,239
And1: 8,500
Joined: Jul 02, 2006
Location: Tuscaloosa Alabama
Contact:
     

Re: Cle / Orl 

Post#29 » by babyjax13 » Sun Sep 12, 2021 11:39 pm

kobe_vs_jordan wrote:
babyjax13 wrote:
kobe_vs_jordan wrote:I was with you word for word till the Sexton for Hampton swap. Cavs trading highest ceiling player and best pick for Isaac and RJ?

Sexton has rookie max player potential IMO . Him taken one more leap would put him in elite territory I don't think he too far in talent from a player like De'Arron fox.


Well, they are trading Kevin Love and getting a nice fit long-term next to Mobley (I actually really don't think Isaac is going to last in the NBA, unfortunately, but he seems to be highly valued). Maybe it could be Okoro added instead, he'd be fun with Suggs, too.

Think Garland - Hampton swap may be easier to swallow . Or protect the pick . There is some value to fill .

I understand Love contract is ugly but Ross and Issac make the same amount of money . Risk on Isaac being dead money due to injury.


oh no no no, Garland is so much better and more valuable than Sexton
Image

JazzMatt13 wrote:just because I think aliens probably have to do with JFK, doesn't mean my theory that Jazz will never get Wiggins, isn't true.

JColl
jbk1234
Forum Mod - Cavs
Forum Mod - Cavs
Posts: 43,876
And1: 25,006
Joined: Dec 22, 2010
   

Re: Cle / Orl 

Post#30 » by jbk1234 » Mon Sep 13, 2021 1:25 am

I just see no reason for the Cavs to trade for Isaac. Is he better, if healthy, than our other front court players? Maybe? Is he an unprotected first better when you factor in the fact that our frontcourt is pretty solid already and we'd have to reshuffle it again?

This entire debate over value seems rather bonkers to me. The Cavs aren't a considerably better team after the trade, the gapping holes on their roster haven't been fixed, so why are they paying a premium to move Love, when they can wait a few months for the cost to drop, while clearing no salary?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
axeman23
Starter
Posts: 2,041
And1: 1,857
Joined: Jul 31, 2009

Re: Cle / Orl 

Post#31 » by axeman23 » Mon Sep 13, 2021 10:54 am

Yeah, I'd pass for Cavs. Love will go for a buyout/medical retirement sooner rather than later, and Cavs can afford to suck 1 more year with a deep draft to build for the future. No need to rush for a play-in spot...
tidho
General Manager
Posts: 8,659
And1: 2,767
Joined: Jun 12, 2009

Re: Cle / Orl 

Post#32 » by tidho » Mon Sep 13, 2021 11:54 am

babyjax13 wrote:I agree Love's contract to *most teams* outweighs a high lottery pick because it locks them down so much with a ton of uncertainty. But for a team that is realistically going nowhere for the life of his contract? I think they should be all over getting an unprotected pick...

and is CLE one of those teams, given they too are "realistically going nowhere for the life of his contract"?

CLE is a solid two seasons away from any chance at winning a playoff series - that's the 23'/24' season. They shouldn't be using any resources that improve their outlook then on short term pieces. Yet here we are again using a lottery pick to eliminate the irrelevant Kevin Love.
'
toooskies
Junior
Posts: 375
And1: 140
Joined: Jul 18, 2013

Re: Cle / Orl 

Post#33 » by toooskies » Mon Sep 13, 2021 2:47 pm

tidho wrote:
babyjax13 wrote:I agree Love's contract to *most teams* outweighs a high lottery pick because it locks them down so much with a ton of uncertainty. But for a team that is realistically going nowhere for the life of his contract? I think they should be all over getting an unprotected pick...

and is CLE one of those teams, given they too are "realistically going nowhere for the life of his contract"?

CLE is a solid two seasons away from any chance at winning a playoff series - that's the 23'/24' season. They shouldn't be using any resources that improve their outlook then on short term pieces. Yet here we are again using a lottery pick to eliminate the irrelevant Kevin Love.
'

Oh, I think the Cavs might be closer than that-- this year is probably the year where they build momentum towards the end of the year after a rough start and maybe make a play-in run, and next offseason they get off of Love's contract a lot cheaper than it would be this season (optimistically he might play his value up, realistically it's an expiring that should be cheaper to move). And they're still players in the SImmons market. That would probably accelerate the timeline a bit, particularly if Mobley is the centerpiece instead of our annual featured-but-not-quite-ready rookie.
User avatar
babyjax13
RealGM
Posts: 22,239
And1: 8,500
Joined: Jul 02, 2006
Location: Tuscaloosa Alabama
Contact:
     

Re: Cle / Orl 

Post#34 » by babyjax13 » Mon Sep 13, 2021 2:50 pm

tidho wrote:
babyjax13 wrote:I agree Love's contract to *most teams* outweighs a high lottery pick because it locks them down so much with a ton of uncertainty. But for a team that is realistically going nowhere for the life of his contract? I think they should be all over getting an unprotected pick...

and is CLE one of those teams, given they too are "realistically going nowhere for the life of his contract"?

CLE is a solid two seasons away from any chance at winning a playoff series - that's the 23'/24' season. They shouldn't be using any resources that improve their outlook then on short term pieces. Yet here we are again using a lottery pick to eliminate the irrelevant Kevin Love.
'


I think if they trade for Simmons they will be reasonably close to the playoffs by the next season.
Image

JazzMatt13 wrote:just because I think aliens probably have to do with JFK, doesn't mean my theory that Jazz will never get Wiggins, isn't true.

JColl
Xman
Veteran
Posts: 2,796
And1: 151
Joined: Jun 10, 2005

Re: Cle / Orl 

Post#35 » by Xman » Mon Sep 13, 2021 4:00 pm

Isaac is worth much more.

CLE is not close. 2023/24 season might be better (KLove expires, Mobley/Okoro develops). I still think CLE should trade one of Sexton/Garland for another asset - I would trade Sexton instead of paying him. CLE should draft high in the lottery next year and low in the lottery the year after. Also can add a nice free agent when KLove expires.

I think Trey Murphy would fit well if they could get him. 6'8 off the ball three point shooter than can D.
Sexton for Murphy, KLewis, 2024 LAL 1st.
Follow up; Rubio for AGordon (DEN needs short term pg help and CLE gets one year vet); or, Rubio for Gallinari (fills backup needs for both).
toooskies
Junior
Posts: 375
And1: 140
Joined: Jul 18, 2013

Re: Cle / Orl 

Post#36 » by toooskies » Mon Sep 13, 2021 7:31 pm

Xman wrote:Isaac is worth much more.

CLE is not close. 2023/24 season might be better (KLove expires, Mobley/Okoro develops). I still think CLE should trade one of Sexton/Garland for another asset - I would trade Sexton instead of paying him. CLE should draft high in the lottery next year and low in the lottery the year after. Also can add a nice free agent when KLove expires.

I think Trey Murphy would fit well if they could get him. 6'8 off the ball three point shooter than can D.
Sexton for Murphy, KLewis, 2024 LAL 1st.
Follow up; Rubio for AGordon (DEN needs short term pg help and CLE gets one year vet); or, Rubio for Gallinari (fills backup needs for both).

The problem with Isaac is there's no certainty he'll be a player you can count on to play. He's missed more games due to injury than Kevin Love has in the past four years. If you assume he'll be able to play at full potential then sure, he will easily outplay his contract. But that is not a safe assumption.
orlando_joe
Starter
Posts: 2,229
And1: 856
Joined: Dec 27, 2015
     

Re: Cle / Orl 

Post#37 » by orlando_joe » Mon Sep 13, 2021 7:35 pm

toooskies wrote:
Xman wrote:Isaac is worth much more.

CLE is not close. 2023/24 season might be better (KLove expires, Mobley/Okoro develops). I still think CLE should trade one of Sexton/Garland for another asset - I would trade Sexton instead of paying him. CLE should draft high in the lottery next year and low in the lottery the year after. Also can add a nice free agent when KLove expires.

I think Trey Murphy would fit well if they could get him. 6'8 off the ball three point shooter than can D.
Sexton for Murphy, KLewis, 2024 LAL 1st.
Follow up; Rubio for AGordon (DEN needs short term pg help and CLE gets one year vet); or, Rubio for Gallinari (fills backup needs for both).

The problem with Isaac is there's no certainty he'll be a player you can count on to play. He's missed more games due to injury than Kevin Love has in the past four years. If you assume he'll be able to play at full potential then sure, he will easily outplay his contract. But that is not a safe assumption.

yea so? love made what 5 times what he made over that time? and isaac has injury protection in his contract that protects magic...that seems to always be laft out...no matter this offer will not get magic to pick up phone
toooskies
Junior
Posts: 375
And1: 140
Joined: Jul 18, 2013

Re: Cle / Orl 

Post#38 » by toooskies » Mon Sep 13, 2021 7:40 pm

orlando_joe wrote:
toooskies wrote:
Xman wrote:Isaac is worth much more.

CLE is not close. 2023/24 season might be better (KLove expires, Mobley/Okoro develops). I still think CLE should trade one of Sexton/Garland for another asset - I would trade Sexton instead of paying him. CLE should draft high in the lottery next year and low in the lottery the year after. Also can add a nice free agent when KLove expires.

I think Trey Murphy would fit well if they could get him. 6'8 off the ball three point shooter than can D.
Sexton for Murphy, KLewis, 2024 LAL 1st.
Follow up; Rubio for AGordon (DEN needs short term pg help and CLE gets one year vet); or, Rubio for Gallinari (fills backup needs for both).

The problem with Isaac is there's no certainty he'll be a player you can count on to play. He's missed more games due to injury than Kevin Love has in the past four years. If you assume he'll be able to play at full potential then sure, he will easily outplay his contract. But that is not a safe assumption.

yea so? love made what 5 times what he made over that time? and isaac has injury protection in his contract that protects magic..no matter this offer will not get magic to pick up phone

Cavs would probably ask for Gary Harris anyway, although the pick would probably be somewhat protected.
orlando_joe
Starter
Posts: 2,229
And1: 856
Joined: Dec 27, 2015
     

Re: Cle / Orl 

Post#39 » by orlando_joe » Mon Sep 13, 2021 7:41 pm

toooskies wrote:
orlando_joe wrote:
toooskies wrote:The problem with Isaac is there's no certainty he'll be a player you can count on to play. He's missed more games due to injury than Kevin Love has in the past four years. If you assume he'll be able to play at full potential then sure, he will easily outplay his contract. But that is not a safe assumption.

yea so? love made what 5 times what he made over that time? and isaac has injury protection in his contract that protects magic..no matter this offer will not get magic to pick up phone

Cavs would probably ask for Gary Harris anyway, although the pick would probably be somewhat protected.

well that would work..
jbk1234
Forum Mod - Cavs
Forum Mod - Cavs
Posts: 43,876
And1: 25,006
Joined: Dec 22, 2010
   

Re: Cle / Orl 

Post#40 » by jbk1234 » Mon Sep 13, 2021 7:47 pm

toooskies wrote:
orlando_joe wrote:
toooskies wrote:The problem with Isaac is there's no certainty he'll be a player you can count on to play. He's missed more games due to injury than Kevin Love has in the past four years. If you assume he'll be able to play at full potential then sure, he will easily outplay his contract. But that is not a safe assumption.

yea so? love made what 5 times what he made over that time? and isaac has injury protection in his contract that protects magic..no matter this offer will not get magic to pick up phone

Cavs would probably ask for Gary Harris anyway, although the pick would probably be somewhat protected.


Yeah, Harris and Ross for a protected pick does a lot more for the Cavs than yet another big, who's had injury issues, saves us minimal money next summer, and costs us an unprotected 1st.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.

Return to Trades and Transactions