Cle / Orl

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Re: Cle / Orl 

Post#41 » by orlando_joe » Mon Sep 13, 2021 7:53 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
toooskies wrote:
orlando_joe wrote:yea so? love made what 5 times what he made over that time? and isaac has injury protection in his contract that protects magic..no matter this offer will not get magic to pick up phone

Cavs would probably ask for Gary Harris anyway, although the pick would probably be somewhat protected.


Yeah, Harris and Ross for a protected pick does a lot more for the Cavs than yet another big, who's had injury issues, saves us minimal money next summer, and costs us an unprotected 1st.

well it would depend on protection and if love agree to buy out and how much he would give up...sure not giving usefull players and paying 60 mill for a protected pick? i mean love is useless to magic who would do that?
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Re: Cle / Orl 

Post#42 » by jbk1234 » Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:01 pm

orlando_joe wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
toooskies wrote:Cavs would probably ask for Gary Harris anyway, although the pick would probably be somewhat protected.


Yeah, Harris and Ross for a protected pick does a lot more for the Cavs than yet another big, who's had injury issues, saves us minimal money next summer, and costs us an unprotected 1st.

well it would depend on protection and if love agree to buy out and how much he would give up...sure not giving usefull players and paying 30 mill for a protected pick? who would do that?


As you said, I expect it would depend on the protections. Normally, I'm of the opinion that the Cavs are better off waiting on Love's deal to dwindle down before moving it so that there's less owed on it (tbc, you're eating $17M in year two here, with no buyout, not $60M, as Ross will still be on the books). But, the value to the Cavs in having replacement level players as the 2 and 3 for the entire season probably outweighs the benefit of waiting until the deadline or summer.

If Love takes a buyout after the deadline, assume around $10M, then you're really only looking at $9-12M in additional salary next summer.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: Cle / Orl 

Post#43 » by orlando_joe » Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:06 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
orlando_joe wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
Yeah, Harris and Ross for a protected pick does a lot more for the Cavs than yet another big, who's had injury issues, saves us minimal money next summer, and costs us an unprotected 1st.

well it would depend on protection and if love agree to buy out and how much he would give up...sure not giving usefull players and paying 30 mill for a protected pick? who would do that?


As you said, I expect it would depend on the protections. Normally, I'm of the opinion that the Cavs are better off waiting on Love's deal to dwindle down before moving it so that there's less owed on it (tbc, you're eating $17M in year two here, with no buyout, not $60M, as Ross will still be on the books). But, the value to the Cavs in having replacement level players as the 2 and 3 for the entire season probably outweighs the benefit of waiting until the deadline or summer.

If Love takes a buyout after the deadline, assume around $10M, then you're really only looking at $9-12M in additional salary next summer.

well thats a spin...to be more clear ross has some value and could i think be traded for no money next yr.so its eating 30 mill next yr..and ross and harris have roles on magic this yr...love would not so eating 30 more mill..
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Re: Cle / Orl 

Post#44 » by jbk1234 » Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:09 pm

orlando_joe wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
orlando_joe wrote:well it would depend on protection and if love agree to buy out and how much he would give up...sure not giving usefull players and paying 30 mill for a protected pick? who would do that?


As you said, I expect it would depend on the protections. Normally, I'm of the opinion that the Cavs are better off waiting on Love's deal to dwindle down before moving it so that there's less owed on it (tbc, you're eating $17M in year two here, with no buyout, not $60M, as Ross will still be on the books). But, the value to the Cavs in having replacement level players as the 2 and 3 for the entire season probably outweighs the benefit of waiting until the deadline or summer.

If Love takes a buyout after the deadline, assume around $10M, then you're really only looking at $9-12M in additional salary next summer.

well thats a spin...to be more clear ross has some value and could i think be traded for no money next yr.so its eating 30 mill next yr..and ross and harris have roles on magic this yr...love would not so eating 30 more mill..


It's not spin, it's the math. The only question mark is the amount of a buyout. But if the Magic prefer to trade Ross for an expiring contract, then I get that as well.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: Cle / Orl 

Post#45 » by orlando_joe » Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:23 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
orlando_joe wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
As you said, I expect it would depend on the protections. Normally, I'm of the opinion that the Cavs are better off waiting on Love's deal to dwindle down before moving it so that there's less owed on it (tbc, you're eating $17M in year two here, with no buyout, not $60M, as Ross will still be on the books). But, the value to the Cavs in having replacement level players as the 2 and 3 for the entire season probably outweighs the benefit of waiting until the deadline or summer.

If Love takes a buyout after the deadline, assume around $10M, then you're really only looking at $9-12M in additional salary next summer.

well thats a spin...to be more clear ross has some value and could i think be traded for no money next yr.so its eating 30 mill next yr..and ross and harris have roles on magic this yr...love would not so eating 30 more mill..


It's not spin, it's the math. The only question mark is the amount of a buyout. But if the Magic prefer to trade Ross for an expiring contract, then I get that as well.

so do you agree it very well would cost magic 30 mill next yr?...plus paying a useless player to magic 30 mill this yr?
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Re: Cle / Orl 

Post#46 » by jbk1234 » Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:37 pm

orlando_joe wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
orlando_joe wrote:well thats a spin...to be more clear ross has some value and could i think be traded for no money next yr.so its eating 30 mill next yr..and ross and harris have roles on magic this yr...love would not so eating 30 more mill..


It's not spin, it's the math. The only question mark is the amount of a buyout. But if the Magic prefer to trade Ross for an expiring contract, then I get that as well.

so do you agree it very well would cost magic 30 mill next yr?...plus paying a useless player to magic 30 mill this yr?


Well no, if for no other reason because Love is only going to make $28.4M next year even if he refuses a buyout. But there's a bit of having your cake and eating it too here in terms of Ross. He's either still on the Magic's roster next summer, or not. If he's not going out in this trade, then he needs to go out in another one or he's still on the books. I suspect he maybe could fetch an expiring contract from a contender (I'm guessing you wouldn't be pleased with the player coming back in that scenario either), but then you're telling me the cap space is more important than the pick. If that's where the Magic are at, then that's where the Magic are at.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: Cle / Orl 

Post#47 » by toooskies » Mon Sep 13, 2021 9:18 pm

orlando_joe wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
orlando_joe wrote:well thats a spin...to be more clear ross has some value and could i think be traded for no money next yr.so its eating 30 mill next yr..and ross and harris have roles on magic this yr...love would not so eating 30 more mill..


It's not spin, it's the math. The only question mark is the amount of a buyout. But if the Magic prefer to trade Ross for an expiring contract, then I get that as well.

so do you agree it very well would cost magic 30 mill next yr?...plus paying a useless player to magic 30 mill this yr?
orlando_joe wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
toooskies wrote:Cavs would probably ask for Gary Harris anyway, although the pick would probably be somewhat protected.


Yeah, Harris and Ross for a protected pick does a lot more for the Cavs than yet another big, who's had injury issues, saves us minimal money next summer, and costs us an unprotected 1st.

well it would depend on protection and if love agree to buy out and how much he would give up...sure not giving usefull players and paying 60 mill for a protected pick? i mean love is useless to magic who would do that?

- Both Harris and Ross are pretty much useless players to the Magic this year (and Ross next year), they're getting in the way of young guys getting minutes.
- The free agent market set Ross's value to a contender at... probably a vet's minimum contract. Guys like Otto Porter, Malik Monk, etc. We just saw Kemba Walker make 8m, we just saw Schroder get 6m. All more useful players than Ross. Danny Green at 10m, better player. Reggie Bullock, 10m/year, better player. Maybe his value increases mid-season if some team gets a bunch of injuries and needs to swap an injured guy for Ross and a pick, but I really don't see it.
- We just saw OKC turn Horford's mediocre salary into Kemba's buyout and a non-lotto 1st, with some 2nd rounders being exchanged. The Cavs probably get a little more in Ross + Harris than the Celtics do with Horford, but they're also probably sending a better pick back than the 16th overall.
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Re: Cle / Orl 

Post#48 » by orlando_joe » Mon Sep 13, 2021 9:22 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
orlando_joe wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
It's not spin, it's the math. The only question mark is the amount of a buyout. But if the Magic prefer to trade Ross for an expiring contract, then I get that as well.

so do you agree it very well would cost magic 30 mill next yr?...plus paying a useless player to magic 30 mill this yr?


Well no, if for no other reason because Love is only going to make $28.4M next year even if he refuses a buyout. But there's a bit of having your cake and eating it too here in terms of Ross. He's either still on the Magic's roster next summer, or not. If he's not going out in this trade, then he needs to go out in another one or he's still on the books. I suspect he maybe could fetch an expiring contract from a contender (I'm guessing you wouldn't be pleased with the player coming back in that scenario either), but then you're telling me the cap space is more important than the pick. If that's where the Magic are at, then that's where the Magic are at.

is it that cut and dry? no way magic can add some 2nds to ross to playoff team at deadline for a pick? or young player? take back exp and come away with space and pick? injurys to playoff teams happen..i just dont see this as best deal or stuck with ross
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Re: Cle / Orl 

Post#49 » by jbk1234 » Mon Sep 13, 2021 9:34 pm

orlando_joe wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
orlando_joe wrote:so do you agree it very well would cost magic 30 mill next yr?...plus paying a useless player to magic 30 mill this yr?


Well no, if for no other reason because Love is only going to make $28.4M next year even if he refuses a buyout. But there's a bit of having your cake and eating it too here in terms of Ross. He's either still on the Magic's roster next summer, or not. If he's not going out in this trade, then he needs to go out in another one or he's still on the books. I suspect he maybe could fetch an expiring contract from a contender (I'm guessing you wouldn't be pleased with the player coming back in that scenario either), but then you're telling me the cap space is more important than the pick. If that's where the Magic are at, then that's where the Magic are at.

is it that cut and dry? no way magic can add some 2nds to ross to playoff team at deadline for a pick? or young player? and come away with space and pick? injurys to playoff teams happen..i just dont see this as best deal or stuck with ross
It's possible but very unlikely. Even playoff teams don't usually trade first round picks for a rotation player. The Cavs got seconds back for all of Burke, Hood, and Clarkson at the deadline their first year in the rebuild. The only time they got a first was when they ate $20M in future salary with the G. Hill trade. Those playoff teams are usually looking to trim tax bills, not add to them.

I get why the Magic might prefer to wait and see if they could land a late first for Ross, or even Harris if they take back smaller long-term deals, but the value to the Cavs would be in having those guys on the roster for the entire season. At the deadline, heck at the halfway point, I suspect the cake will be pretty baked as far as this season goes for the Cavs.

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Re: Cle / Orl 

Post#50 » by orlando_joe » Mon Sep 13, 2021 11:34 pm

toooskies wrote:
orlando_joe wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
It's not spin, it's the math. The only question mark is the amount of a buyout. But if the Magic prefer to trade Ross for an expiring contract, then I get that as well.

so do you agree it very well would cost magic 30 mill next yr?...plus paying a useless player to magic 30 mill this yr?
orlando_joe wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
Yeah, Harris and Ross for a protected pick does a lot more for the Cavs than yet another big, who's had injury issues, saves us minimal money next summer, and costs us an unprotected 1st.

well it would depend on protection and if love agree to buy out and how much he would give up...sure not giving usefull players and paying 60 mill for a protected pick? i mean love is useless to magic who would do that?

- Both Harris and Ross are pretty much useless players to the Magic this year (and Ross next year), they're getting in the way of young guys getting minutes.
- The free agent market set Ross's value to a contender at... probably a vet's minimum contract. Guys like Otto Porter, Malik Monk, etc. We just saw Kemba Walker make 8m, we just saw Schroder get 6m. All more useful players than Ross. Danny Green at 10m, better player. Reggie Bullock, 10m/year, better player. Maybe his value increases mid-season if some team gets a bunch of injuries and needs to swap an injured guy for Ross and a pick, but I really don't see it.
- We just saw OKC turn Horford's mediocre salary into Kemba's buyout and a non-lotto 1st, with some 2nd rounders being exchanged. The Cavs probably get a little more in Ross + Harris than the Celtics do with Horford, but they're also probably sending a better pick back than the 16th overall.

then he will be on magic next 2 yrs ..cool..since you know all those players that have baggage or washed from injury are better then ross..got it
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Re: Cle / Orl 

Post#51 » by toooskies » Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:15 am

orlando_joe wrote:
toooskies wrote:
orlando_joe wrote:so do you agree it very well would cost magic 30 mill next yr?...plus paying a useless player to magic 30 mill this yr?
orlando_joe wrote:well it would depend on protection and if love agree to buy out and how much he would give up...sure not giving usefull players and paying 60 mill for a protected pick? i mean love is useless to magic who would do that?

- Both Harris and Ross are pretty much useless players to the Magic this year (and Ross next year), they're getting in the way of young guys getting minutes.
- The free agent market set Ross's value to a contender at... probably a vet's minimum contract. Guys like Otto Porter, Malik Monk, etc. We just saw Kemba Walker make 8m, we just saw Schroder get 6m. All more useful players than Ross. Danny Green at 10m, better player. Reggie Bullock, 10m/year, better player. Maybe his value increases mid-season if some team gets a bunch of injuries and needs to swap an injured guy for Ross and a pick, but I really don't see it.
- We just saw OKC turn Horford's mediocre salary into Kemba's buyout and a non-lotto 1st, with some 2nd rounders being exchanged. The Cavs probably get a little more in Ross + Harris than the Celtics do with Horford, but they're also probably sending a better pick back than the 16th overall.

then he will be on magic next 2 yrs ..cool..since you know all those players that have baggage or washed from injury are better then ross..got it

Go ahead, make your case that the guy who has been backing up James Ennis is so measurably better than them. Even if you do... He's still just a role player on a contract above the MLE with mediocre impact stats.
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Re: Cle / Orl 

Post#52 » by orlando_joe » Tue Sep 14, 2021 10:39 am

toooskies wrote:
orlando_joe wrote:
toooskies wrote:- Both Harris and Ross are pretty much useless players to the Magic this year (and Ross next year), they're getting in the way of young guys getting minutes.
- The free agent market set Ross's value to a contender at... probably a vet's minimum contract. Guys like Otto Porter, Malik Monk, etc. We just saw Kemba Walker make 8m, we just saw Schroder get 6m. All more useful players than Ross. Danny Green at 10m, better player. Reggie Bullock, 10m/year, better player. Maybe his value increases mid-season if some team gets a bunch of injuries and needs to swap an injured guy for Ross and a pick, but I really don't see it.
- We just saw OKC turn Horford's mediocre salary into Kemba's buyout and a non-lotto 1st, with some 2nd rounders being exchanged. The Cavs probably get a little more in Ross + Harris than the Celtics do with Horford, but they're also probably sending a better pick back than the 16th overall.

then he will be on magic next 2 yrs ..cool..since you know all those players that have baggage or washed from injury are better then ross..got it

Go ahead, make your case that the guy who has been backing up James Ennis is so measurably better than them. Even if you do... He's still just a role player on a contract above the MLE with mediocre impact stats.

i will leave it at this ..this board also said no way vuc could get a lottery pick ..magic got wcj and 8th pick and are still owed 1 more pick top 4 protected 1st along with exp contract and also dumped aminu..do not see magic paying love contract for protected first call okc....and magic i dont see paying to dump ross not even sure who would play sf right now if he is traded..not that it matters ..and boston can use a player like horford..magic would have no use for love with isaac,okeke and wagner all needing min
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Re: Cle / Orl 

Post#53 » by HartfordWhalers » Tue Sep 14, 2021 10:57 am

Oh the Vuc trade was clearly beyond awful for Chicago the second it happened.
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Re: Cle / Orl 

Post#54 » by jbk1234 » Tue Sep 14, 2021 12:39 pm

orlando_joe wrote:
toooskies wrote:
orlando_joe wrote:then he will be on magic next 2 yrs ..cool..since you know all those players that have baggage or washed from injury are better then ross..got it

Go ahead, make your case that the guy who has been backing up James Ennis is so measurably better than them. Even if you do... He's still just a role player on a contract above the MLE with mediocre impact stats.

i will leave it at this ..this board also said no way vuc could get a lottery pick ..magic got wcj and 8th pick and are still owed 1 more pick top 4 protected 1st along with exp contract and also dumped aminu..do not see magic paying love contract for protected first call okc....and magic i dont see paying to dump ross not even sure who would play sf right now if he is traded..not that it matters ..and boston can use a player like horford..magic would have no use for love with isaac,okeke and wagner all needing min
And the flip side is that the Magic could only get two meh seconds for Fournier who was a starter.

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Re: Cle / Orl 

Post#55 » by Texas Chuck » Tue Sep 14, 2021 2:34 pm

As Whalers said the Vuc trade was widely panned for Chicago immediately. However, he did return that value and I freely admit I did not think he would return that much value and I ate crow for it.

But Vuc getting more than we expected is not relevant to Ross and using an overpay to justify overvaluing another player isn't something I would personally feel comfortable doing. Vuc and Ross have very little in common other than being long-time teammates. And I would hope none of us base trade value based on the name of the front of the jersey.
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Re: Cle / Orl 

Post#56 » by orlando_joe » Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:08 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
orlando_joe wrote:
toooskies wrote:Go ahead, make your case that the guy who has been backing up James Ennis is so measurably better than them. Even if you do... He's still just a role player on a contract above the MLE with mediocre impact stats.

i will leave it at this ..this board also said no way vuc could get a lottery pick ..magic got wcj and 8th pick and are still owed 1 more pick top 4 protected 1st along with exp contract and also dumped aminu..do not see magic paying love contract for protected first call okc....and magic i dont see paying to dump ross not even sure who would play sf right now if he is traded..not that it matters ..and boston can use a player like horford..magic would have no use for love with isaac,okeke and wagner all needing min
And the flip side is that the Magic could only get two meh seconds for Fournier who was a starter.

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and a tpe for full amount that might be used at deadline taking on a exp contract for more assets?..and helped magic with losing last yr to lock in top 3 odds in draft and helped in magic getting suggs?..and he had 2 months left and was walking...so....yea flip side?
?
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Re: Cle / Orl 

Post#57 » by orlando_joe » Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:25 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:As Whalers said the Vuc trade was widely panned for Chicago immediately. However, he did return that value and I freely admit I did not think he would return that much value and I ate crow for it.

But Vuc getting more than we expected is not relevant to Ross and using an overpay to justify overvaluing another player isn't something I would personally feel comfortable doing. Vuc and Ross have very little in common other than being long-time teammates. And I would hope none of us base trade value based on the name of the front of the jersey.

he compared players to ross ... old, injured and very high baggage players signed for vet min...and yea kemba signed for 8 but will be making 30 plus..that have nothing to do with ross ..that to me opened up the talk..but yea point taken
edit
sorry i dont agree that ross is neg contract and would cost more then exp to move..that was point
making ross 2nd yr same as exp..and magic taking on almost 30 mill next yr for love
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Re: Cle / Orl 

Post#58 » by HartfordWhalers » Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:07 pm

For Ross, I think there is value for both teams in a sort of DJJ for Ross straight swap where one team gets a playable guy and Orlando gets cap space next year to play around with (salary dump, or young rfa or just save money while bad). I could see both fan bases wanting a 2nd, but the value I see is an a single worse player on an expiring.

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