A bad CJ McCollum for Tobias Harris trade

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Re: A bad CJ McCollum for Tobias Harris trade 

Post#21 » by expatbayern » Mon Sep 13, 2021 1:23 am

OGSactownballer wrote:moving RoCo to the SF where he is most effective on both ends of the floor.

This isn't true and hasn't been for years; RoCo is a PF only, just like Harris.

But it doesn't even matter, because this deal somehow has PDX adding RoCo in to a CJ/Harris swap that we wouldn't do in the first place.

Dame/CJ/Powell/RoCo/Nurkic certainly isn't perfect in terms of size on the wing, but it's a damn sight better than the Dame/Powell/No One/Harris/Nurkic lineup this would leave us.
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Re: A bad CJ McCollum for Tobias Harris trade 

Post#22 » by Texas Chuck » Mon Sep 13, 2021 1:39 am

expatbayern wrote:
OGSactownballer wrote:moving RoCo to the SF where he is most effective on both ends of the floor.

This isn't true and hasn't been for years; RoCo is a PF only, just like Harris.

But it doesn't even matter, because this deal somehow has PDX adding RoCo in to a CJ/Harris swap that we wouldn't do in the first place.

Dame/CJ/Powell/RoCo/Nurkic certainly isn't perfect in terms of size on the wing, but it's a damn sight better than the Dame/Powell/No One/Harris/Nurkic lineup this would leave us.


It's wild that Powell can play SF until Seth Curry joins the team then suddenly he magically can't.

I mean it's expected to value your existing players more, but its silly to suggest a guy can't play a position because you substitute one undersized SG for another.
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Re: A bad CJ McCollum for Tobias Harris trade 

Post#23 » by OGSactownballer » Mon Sep 13, 2021 1:42 am

expatbayern wrote:
OGSactownballer wrote:moving RoCo to the SF where he is most effective on both ends of the floor.

This isn't true and hasn't been for years; RoCo is a PF only, just like Harris.

But it doesn't even matter, because this deal somehow has PDX adding RoCo in to a CJ/Harris swap that we wouldn't do in the first place.

Dame/CJ/Powell/RoCo/Nurkic certainly isn't perfect in terms of size on the wing, but it's a damn sight better than the Dame/Powell/No One/Harris/Nurkic lineup this would leave us.


Yeah totally ignored my restructure of the trade where I said that other pieces besides a very protected first were overkill and unneeded.

And as far as RoCo positionally, he makes far more sense as a big SF than an undersized PF. But realistically he is interchangeable between the positions and somisnHarris so that increases lineup versatility. HOU even ran him as a small ball Center.
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Re: A bad CJ McCollum for Tobias Harris trade 

Post#24 » by Mamba4Goat » Mon Sep 13, 2021 1:58 am

Cov was pretty bad at PF for Minnesota fwiw.
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Re: A bad CJ McCollum for Tobias Harris trade 

Post#25 » by Myth » Mon Sep 13, 2021 3:45 am

My desire to swap CJ for Tobias has dropped significantly since adding Nance. I’ve wanted to improve defense. This takes defense away. I’m fine on a CJ for Tobias trade if we aren’t sending out defense or much else in general to make it happen.
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Re: A bad CJ McCollum for Tobias Harris trade 

Post#26 » by Wizenheimer » Mon Sep 13, 2021 4:31 am

jbk1234 wrote:now the Blazers are going to want Simmons for CJ and the Sixers are going to want Dame for Simmons.

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the gap between Dame and Simmons is a hell of a lot bigger than the gap between Simmons and CJ. Both Simmons and CJ have their warts, but right now the warts on Simmons are pretty significant.

No way Portland trades Dame this season, and they have no overwhelming need to trade CJ (even though they should). Meanwhile, Philly is between a rock and a hard place, and if they call Simmons bluff, and he does sit out training camp, his value will tank even more than it has already

as to the CJ for Harris idea. I'd grant that Harris might be a little better player. But he doesn't have much versatility. However, Portland's big problem is that they don't have a 2nd star yet CJ's usage and salary are taking all the air out of the room. In that regard, CJ for Harris doesn't accomplish anything significant for Portland. they'd be right back where they are now paying 2nd star money, and giving 2nd star usage, to a non-star. And paying 5M/year more than they are now

not a chance Portland adds RoCo to a Harris trade
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Re: A bad CJ McCollum for Tobias Harris trade 

Post#27 » by daoneandonly » Mon Sep 13, 2021 11:22 am

Its not that CJ is not on Tobias' level, its that he's not on the level below him
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Re: A bad CJ McCollum for Tobias Harris trade 

Post#28 » by DroseReturnChi » Mon Sep 13, 2021 12:27 pm

Brandon-Clyde wrote:In a straight up CJ McCollum for Tobias Harris matchup I would want added compensation for taking on Harris's extra salary ($5million more next season). I would want to send CJ Elleby to close the gap on salary and expect at least a lottery protected first in exchange. Furthermore I would not do the Roco for Seth exchange as I believe Anfernee Simons could fill the same role as Seth for Portland at a cheaper cost and would rather have the added depth of a Roco, Harris and Nance forward rotation since a Dame and Powell guard rotation would leave few minutes for Seth


think about why they should ddo cj for ben then. i can see why pdx will hate this trade bc cj is more valuable than tobias but the gap between cj and toby is much smaller than you think.
also, curry has more value i think morey is doing a huge favor here. scoring over 20 ppg with elite volume i truly think he is the better budget than his overpaid 60mil brother more substance. seth is mad underrated whoever traded him for richardson might have costed a championship.
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Re: A bad CJ McCollum for Tobias Harris trade 

Post#29 » by GutUNC » Mon Sep 13, 2021 1:38 pm

babyjax13 wrote:
GutUNC wrote:
babyjax13 wrote:As long as Ben Simmons is demanding a trade, CJ for Harris is not happening - Portland is going to be looking to add Simmons instead. I also agree that Tobias is the better player at a more important position.


On a related note, I'm not getting any presents for my kids for Christmas this year - I'll be looking to see if Santa comes through instead.


I mean, when the Simmons situation resolves then this could be revisited, but there is zero reason for Portland to pull the trigger until it's clear that CJ for Simmons isn't the best offer.


1. I completely understand why Portland wouldn't have interest in adding Harris for McCollum because of positional needs.

2) There's also no reason for Daryl Morey to want to eliminate all opportunity to make future roster moves so he can lock himself in to a roster with Embiid and 2 overpaid, non All Star players on the wrong side of their prime.
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Re: A bad CJ McCollum for Tobias Harris trade 

Post#30 » by Laimbeer » Mon Sep 13, 2021 1:39 pm

babyjax13 wrote:
GutUNC wrote:
babyjax13 wrote:As long as Ben Simmons is demanding a trade, CJ for Harris is not happening - Portland is going to be looking to add Simmons instead. I also agree that Tobias is the better player at a more important position.


On a related note, I'm not getting any presents for my kids for Christmas this year - I'll be looking to see if Santa comes through instead.


I mean, when the Simmons situation resolves then this could be revisited, but there is zero reason for Portland to pull the trigger until it's clear that CJ for Simmons isn't the best offer.


If Portland feels CJ for Harris improves the team, they should do it. Waiting out the Simmons situation could see that opportunity eventually vanish.
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Re: A bad CJ McCollum for Tobias Harris trade 

Post#31 » by Brandon-Clyde » Mon Sep 13, 2021 3:45 pm

DroseReturnChi wrote:
Brandon-Clyde wrote:In a straight up CJ McCollum for Tobias Harris matchup I would want added compensation for taking on Harris's extra salary ($5million more next season). I would want to send CJ Elleby to close the gap on salary and expect at least a lottery protected first in exchange. Furthermore I would not do the Roco for Seth exchange as I believe Anfernee Simons could fill the same role as Seth for Portland at a cheaper cost and would rather have the added depth of a Roco, Harris and Nance forward rotation since a Dame and Powell guard rotation would leave few minutes for Seth


think about why they should ddo cj for ben then. i can see why pdx will hate this trade bc cj is more valuable than tobias but the gap between cj and toby is much smaller than you think.
also, curry has more value i think morey is doing a huge favor here. scoring over 20 ppg with elite volume i truly think he is the better budget than his overpaid 60mil brother more substance. seth is mad underrated whoever traded him for richardson might have costed a championship.

As far as on court value I would say both CJ and Tobias are close in value but Tobias will earn over $5 million more next season and since that would put Portland in luxury tax territory that in my opinion requires compensation as it cuts Philadelphia's payroll.
Seth Curry is a very good shooter and if Portland needed shooting his value to Portland would be great. But Portland starts Dame and Norm Powell if the proposed trade goes through. Both are good shooters and Portland has Anfernee Simons coming off the bench and he shot over 40% from 3 last season. While Curry is the better player Simons is good enough to fill the 3 point gunner off of the bench and even if Portland added Tobias in a swap for CJ Portland would need Roco more than they would need Curry. They would need the depth and defense Roco provides.
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Re: A bad CJ McCollum for Tobias Harris trade 

Post#32 » by the_process » Mon Sep 13, 2021 4:34 pm

Tobias and a 22 1st (lotto, lotto then two 2nds) to POR for CJ.

I think that accounts for the contract difference.

Sixers would then be wondering if anyone would give up a couple of 2nds for Shake Milton.
It is highly unlikely that the Sixers will agree with your Ben Simmons evaluation for the purposes of a trade.
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Re: A bad CJ McCollum for Tobias Harris trade 

Post#33 » by DeBlazerRiddem » Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:46 pm

I don't think a first is needed either way in a CJ/Harris swap. While Harris is the better defender its easier to hide a liability at guard and while CJ is the better offensive player its more valuable to have that skillset at forward.

It made a lot of sense from a roster balance standpoint prior to Nance. It still may make sense (Nance isn't that good) but less so, I think we are excited to have two competent defensive forwards again, the roster looks similar if not even better defensively than our 17-18 roster when we had a top 10 defense.

That said, obviously Philly isn't going to make any big moves until they have the Simmons situation figured out one way or another and Portland is going to see how we look before doing a largely lateral trade. I also question if the front-offices even care about this swap as much as the fans seem to considering how long it has been viable and discussed around here.

I will say, if Philly can somehow salvage the Simmons situation then CJ would be a great fit and voice to have in the locker-room to keep things smooth. He is so thoughtful and well-spoken, a great role-model and leader and would just be a very mature presence working toward harmony in the background. I dont know Harris' personality, if he is more of an outspoken type or a quiet person, but I do know CJ is great in that regard.
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Re: A bad CJ McCollum for Tobias Harris trade 

Post#34 » by JasonStern » Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:09 pm

The value gap between CJ/Tobias is closer than both sides want to admit.

That said, it's interesting to see Covington go from being massively overrated a few years ago to somewhat underrated in 2021.
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Re: A bad CJ McCollum for Tobias Harris trade 

Post#35 » by Texas Chuck » Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:14 pm

JasonStern wrote:That said, it's interesting to see Covington go from being massively overrated a few years ago to somewhat underrated in 2021.


I actually think its not RoCo being underrated itt, its Seth Curry. I mean multiple posters are acting like the most accurate active shooter in the league adds essentially nothing because Simons exists which feels a bit silly honestly.

I think what's happened is Curry has put together b2b really good seasons after he left Portland, but a number of Portland fans are treating him like his value should be what it was when they signed him for nothing coming off a year lost to injury. When the reality is his value has gone up and as RoCo's value was tied in no small part to his great contract, his value has gone down as years have come off of it.
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Re: A bad CJ McCollum for Tobias Harris trade 

Post#36 » by JRoy » Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:27 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:
JasonStern wrote:That said, it's interesting to see Covington go from being massively overrated a few years ago to somewhat underrated in 2021.


I actually think its not RoCo being underrated itt, its Seth Curry. I mean multiple posters are acting like the most accurate active shooter in the league adds essentially nothing because Simons exists which feels a bit silly honestly.

I think what's happened is Curry has put together b2b really good seasons after he left Portland, but a number of Portland fans are treating him like his value should be what it was when they signed him for nothing coming off a year lost to injury. When the reality is his value has gone up and as RoCo's value was tied in no small part to his great contract, his value has gone down as years have come off of it.


FWIW, I’d love a stand-alone Seth Curry for A Simons deal if such were practical.

I do like Curry (and not just on chicken) and want someone else to foot the bill for Simons’ supposed potential.
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Re: A bad CJ McCollum for Tobias Harris trade 

Post#37 » by DeBlazerRiddem » Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:31 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:
JasonStern wrote:That said, it's interesting to see Covington go from being massively overrated a few years ago to somewhat underrated in 2021.


I actually think its not RoCo being underrated itt, its Seth Curry. I mean multiple posters are acting like the most accurate active shooter in the league adds essentially nothing because Simons exists which feels a bit silly honestly.

I think what's happened is Curry has put together b2b really good seasons after he left Portland, but a number of Portland fans are treating him like his value should be what it was when they signed him for nothing coming off a year lost to injury. When the reality is his value has gone up and as RoCo's value was tied in no small part to his great contract, his value has gone down as years have come off of it.


I think it's less that and more that trade value is not an objective quantity that is the same and equal to everyone everywhere at all times but instead that often teams have different needs and value players in a subjective way. To Portland, who currently have a smaller good shooting back-court, Curry doesn't seem to bring any needed or unavailable skillset while one of the better 3&D forwards is a very necessary skillset over here.

In a theoretical sense sure maybe Curry has a higher value around the league, I don't agree with that necessarily but for sake of argument sure, but what is more important here is that RoCo has the more desirable skillset for our team. The disconnect here is that theoretical value doesn't mean much unless we are bringing in a 3rd team who will value Curry more than the Blazers do.
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Re: A bad CJ McCollum for Tobias Harris trade 

Post#38 » by JasonStern » Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:44 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:
JasonStern wrote:That said, it's interesting to see Covington go from being massively overrated a few years ago to somewhat underrated in 2021.


I actually think its not RoCo being underrated itt, its Seth Curry. I mean multiple posters are acting like the most accurate active shooter in the league adds essentially nothing because Simons exists which feels a bit silly honestly.

I think what's happened is Curry has put together b2b really good seasons after he left Portland, but a number of Portland fans are treating him like his value should be what it was when they signed him for nothing coming off a year lost to injury. When the reality is his value has gone up and as RoCo's value was tied in no small part to his great contract, his value has gone down as years have come off of it.


"Really good" is subjective. The Curry .582% eFG% and Covington .533% eFG% isn't nearly as significant in the size and defensive capability differences between the two on a team where, post trade, you'd still have Dame, Powell, etc. Nobody looks at the Blazers roster and goes, "they're one 6'2" bench sharpshooter away from contending". And on the Blazers Curry would, as we've seen in the past, have a lower usage rate inherently leading to less production. So it's not a knock on Curry, but from a team construction standpoint, Covington or - if Covington needs to be included in a CJ/Harris trade - a 6'5" 2nd team all-NBA defensive player in Thybulle, have far more value for Portland than Curry.

As for Covington's value, even as a cheap but expiring player, I'd much prefer him than a late 1st if I was trying to contend now.
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Re: A bad CJ McCollum for Tobias Harris trade 

Post#39 » by Texas Chuck » Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:53 pm

JasonStern wrote:
Texas Chuck wrote:
JasonStern wrote:That said, it's interesting to see Covington go from being massively overrated a few years ago to somewhat underrated in 2021.


I actually think its not RoCo being underrated itt, its Seth Curry. I mean multiple posters are acting like the most accurate active shooter in the league adds essentially nothing because Simons exists which feels a bit silly honestly.

I think what's happened is Curry has put together b2b really good seasons after he left Portland, but a number of Portland fans are treating him like his value should be what it was when they signed him for nothing coming off a year lost to injury. When the reality is his value has gone up and as RoCo's value was tied in no small part to his great contract, his value has gone down as years have come off of it.


"Really good" is subjective. The Curry .582% eFG% and Covington .533% eFG% isn't nearly as significant in the size and defensive capability differences between the two on a team where, post trade, you'd still have Dame, Powell, etc. Nobody looks at the Blazers roster and goes, "they're one 6'2" bench sharpshooter away from contending", and on the Blazers Curry would, as we've seen in the past, have a lower usage rate inherently leading to less production. So it's not a knock on Curry, but from a team construction standpoint, Covington or - if Covington needs to be included in a CJ/Harris trade - a 6'5" 2nd team all-NBA defensive player in Thybulle, have far more value for Portland than Curry.

As for Covington's value, even as a cheap but expiring player, I'd much prefer him than a late 1st if I was trying to contend now.



Sorry, I guess I wasn't as clear as I should have been. I'm not saying Curry has more value than RoCo1(as an aside I think he does have more value because he has an extra dirt cheap year, but that's irrelevant to my actual point). I'm saying over the past 2 years Curry's value relative to Curry has gone up on the strength of those 2 seasons. And RoCo's value has gone down relative to RoCo's value as cheap years have fallen off his contract.

I'm not trying to convince any Blazers fan they are better off with Curry than RoCo. Let me be clear--I am not trying to sell anyone on either side on any of these players. Just saying I think Curry is more valuable in general than was portrayed.
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Re: A bad CJ McCollum for Tobias Harris trade 

Post#40 » by BlazersBroncos » Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:01 pm

Just keep it CJ for Harris w/ Portland sliding RoCo to SF. Even w/ Nance on the team I am still pro CJ for Harris swap.

Curry is underrated, but while I am not a Simons stan he can at least do some of what Seth does. We dont have a replacement for what RoCo brings (Little is just a specimen still for all intents and purposes)

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