A bad CJ McCollum for Tobias Harris trade

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Re: A bad CJ McCollum for Tobias Harris trade 

Post#41 » by Myth » Mon Sep 13, 2021 9:34 pm

JRoy wrote:
Texas Chuck wrote:
JasonStern wrote:That said, it's interesting to see Covington go from being massively overrated a few years ago to somewhat underrated in 2021.


I actually think its not RoCo being underrated itt, its Seth Curry. I mean multiple posters are acting like the most accurate active shooter in the league adds essentially nothing because Simons exists which feels a bit silly honestly.

I think what's happened is Curry has put together b2b really good seasons after he left Portland, but a number of Portland fans are treating him like his value should be what it was when they signed him for nothing coming off a year lost to injury. When the reality is his value has gone up and as RoCo's value was tied in no small part to his great contract, his value has gone down as years have come off of it.


FWIW, I’d love a stand-alone Seth Curry for A Simons deal if such were practical.

I do like Curry (and not just on chicken) and want someone else to foot the bill for Simons’ supposed potential.

Agreed. Every Portland fan would swap Simons for Curry, but Curry’s role on this team would mostly be a glorified Simons, so the value of adding him to Portland isn’t a massive game changer as adding Curry to a team without the role Curry would fill. It definitely isn’t a skill set that Portland is a desperate for a defender such as Covington. In a vacuum, Covington and Curry’s value may not be a massive gap, but we aren’t talking about a vacuum, we are talking about Portland’s roster.

Edit: As I continued reading this thread, I see most of this point was always stated. Though I’m happy to see other Portland fans are seeing this the same way.
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Re: A bad CJ McCollum for Tobias Harris trade 

Post#42 » by JimmyPlopper » Tue Sep 14, 2021 4:22 am

shangrila wrote:It’s not…terrible.

I imagine fans of both teams will turn it down for one reason or another but as an outside fan I think it’s got legs.

It certainly helps to balance the rosters a little more.


Perfectly said. Why not.
so i made a deal with myself. this is the year i make my mark.
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Re: A bad CJ McCollum for Tobias Harris trade 

Post#43 » by PhillyNj » Tue Sep 14, 2021 1:22 pm

Brandon-Clyde wrote:
PhillyNj wrote:
Brandon-Clyde wrote:In a straight up CJ McCollum for Tobias Harris matchup I would want added compensation for taking on Harris's extra salary ($5million more next season). I would want to send CJ Elleby to close the gap on salary and expect at least a lottery protected first in exchange. Furthermore I would not do the Roco for Seth exchange as I believe Anfernee Simons could fill the same role as Seth for Portland at a cheaper cost and would rather have the added depth of a Roco, Harris and Nance forward rotation since a Dame and Powell guard rotation would leave few minutes for Seth

On a straight up trade McCollum for Tobias I would want 2 Frp’s Tobias is the better player and almost a year younger.

Well then no deal because by statistical measure they are pretty equal and CJ has the added skill of being able to create his own shot however Harris costs $5 million more next year and similar in the outlying years.
BTW I am assuming you are serious and not simply violating board policy by making a ridiculous counter offer.

Yea I’m serious. I think the difference in talent is pretty big. And Portland’s picks are in the mid 20S.
Even getting the 2 frp’s I’d rather just keep Tobias. In my view he’s by far the better player.If he where playing with Dame ( like CJ) he’d be even better.
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Re: A bad CJ McCollum for Tobias Harris trade 

Post#44 » by BlazersBroncos » Tue Sep 14, 2021 2:14 pm

PhillyNj wrote:
Brandon-Clyde wrote:
PhillyNj wrote:On a straight up trade McCollum for Tobias I would want 2 Frp’s Tobias is the better player and almost a year younger.

Well then no deal because by statistical measure they are pretty equal and CJ has the added skill of being able to create his own shot however Harris costs $5 million more next year and similar in the outlying years.
BTW I am assuming you are serious and not simply violating board policy by making a ridiculous counter offer.

Yea I’m serious. I think the difference in talent is pretty big. And Portland’s picks are in the mid 20S.
Even getting the 2 frp’s I’d rather just keep Tobias. In my view he’s by far the better player.If he where playing with Dame ( like CJ) he’d be even better.


Your going to have a tough time finding any neutral fan that agrees with that assessment. Tobias is a slightly better defender and by all metrics available a inferior offensive player.

But its not just that, a CJ to Harris swap gets PHI what they need, notably a closer who can create his own shot from above the 3PT line. How often does Toby start with the ball at the top and create a shot when a bucket is badly needed. The duo of CJ / Joel is just so much more balanced that Harris / Joel.

This is moot because PHI isnt moving both Simmons and Tobias, and to me Ben is as good as gone, so Harris is staying. No way do they do that much roster turnover this close to the season starting.
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Re: A bad CJ McCollum for Tobias Harris trade 

Post#45 » by Texas Chuck » Tue Sep 14, 2021 2:30 pm

Tobias definitely not worth 2 firsts more than CJ. I'd say the difference in contract probably evens out the value close enough where no first is required either direction.

Also, we need to stop saying every first my team gets back in trade is in the mid 20's. This has become a really bad trend on this board used to justify some ridiculous asks. We got it in the Thad Young stuff, we've gotten it in multiple Dallas threads despite Dallas not picking in the 20's since Dirk was an all-star, etc...
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Re: A bad CJ McCollum for Tobias Harris trade 

Post#46 » by basketballwacko2 » Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:08 pm

kuclas wrote:The “no” from Portland fan for
Tobias Harris vs CJ trade basically shows how much more Ben Simmons is worth.

What Ben Simmons value is. No one knows at this point. Morey has set a price. No one has met his price.

Especially these three way deals some fans post like some Bagley/hield/Barnes

Trade for Siakam/FVV

With Simmons sending Simmons/Curry out

Than I ask fans if you cut Simmons/Curry out

Would you trade FVV/Siakam for Barnes/hield/Bagley

The straight answer is no from raptors fans.


I can't seem to get a handle on Simmons value wise. He's a good all around player but his very poor shooting from more than 10 feet from the hoop stops me on calling him more than a very good player. His 60% from the FT line is also a huge issue to me. I can't see Siakam and FVV for Ben, but I also can't see CJ McCollum enough for Ben. A SF who can't shoot is a real problem, if he's the PG he still can't shoot and if a PF in this day they are expected to shoot also.

So I just don't know what to offer for him or what team wants him.
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Re: A bad CJ McCollum for Tobias Harris trade 

Post#47 » by Ballerhogger » Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:09 pm

Pretty decent but tobias curry doesnt make sense for blazers.
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Re: A bad CJ McCollum for Tobias Harris trade 

Post#48 » by basketballwacko2 » Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:14 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:Tobias definitely not worth 2 firsts more than CJ. I'd say the difference in contract probably evens out the value close enough where no first is required either direction.

Also, we need to stop saying every first my team gets back in trade is in the mid 20's. This has become a really bad trend on this board used to justify some ridiculous asks. We got it in the Thad Young stuff, we've gotten it in multiple Dallas threads despite Dallas not picking in the 20's since Dirk was an all-star, etc...


I don't like either one of them Tobias or CJ. They are just too expensive. There's only a handful of player who I think are worth over $30 million a year considering the limitations of the cap and tax system.
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Re: A bad CJ McCollum for Tobias Harris trade 

Post#49 » by Ballerhogger » Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:37 pm

basketballwacko2 wrote:
Texas Chuck wrote:Tobias definitely not worth 2 firsts more than CJ. I'd say the difference in contract probably evens out the value close enough where no first is required either direction.

Also, we need to stop saying every first my team gets back in trade is in the mid 20's. This has become a really bad trend on this board used to justify some ridiculous asks. We got it in the Thad Young stuff, we've gotten it in multiple Dallas threads despite Dallas not picking in the 20's since Dirk was an all-star, etc...


I don't like either one of them Tobias or CJ. They are just too expensive. There's only a handful of player who I think are worth over $30 million a year considering the limitations of the cap and tax system.

if winning a ring is closE or something you can do i think as contender money isnt issue.
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Re: A bad CJ McCollum for Tobias Harris trade 

Post#50 » by basketballwacko2 » Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:47 pm

Ballerhogger wrote:
basketballwacko2 wrote:
Texas Chuck wrote:Tobias definitely not worth 2 firsts more than CJ. I'd say the difference in contract probably evens out the value close enough where no first is required either direction.

Also, we need to stop saying every first my team gets back in trade is in the mid 20's. This has become a really bad trend on this board used to justify some ridiculous asks. We got it in the Thad Young stuff, we've gotten it in multiple Dallas threads despite Dallas not picking in the 20's since Dirk was an all-star, etc...


I don't like either one of them Tobias or CJ. They are just too expensive. There's only a handful of player who I think are worth over $30 million a year considering the limitations of the cap and tax system.

if winning a ring is closE or something you can do i think as contender money isnt issue.


It has to be a team in a large market and they have to be close to winning the championship. I couldn't justify going into the tax for anything less than a team getting to the finals. IF there was no cap and tax then I say let the Billionaire owners pay these guys any amount they want. Right now we have 5-6 teams who are deep in the tax all hoping they make the finals. There are a few teams like the Pacers who are right up at the tax line but I don't see that adding Simmons would put them over the top to beat the Bucks and make the finals. They'd have to give up Brogdon and someone else and picks and that's where I can't find a value I like. If you subtract Brogdon, and Warren (if he was healthy) I don't see the remaining team being good enough to win it all.
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Re: A bad CJ McCollum for Tobias Harris trade 

Post#51 » by Ballerhogger » Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:53 pm

basketballwacko2 wrote:
Ballerhogger wrote:
basketballwacko2 wrote:
I don't like either one of them Tobias or CJ. They are just too expensive. There's only a handful of player who I think are worth over $30 million a year considering the limitations of the cap and tax system.

if winning a ring is closE or something you can do i think as contender money isnt issue.


It has to be a team in a large market and they have to be close to winning the championship. I couldn't justify going into the tax for anything less than a team getting to the finals. IF there was no cap and tax then I say let the Billionaire owners pay these guys any amount they want. Right now we have 5-6 teams who are deep in the tax all hoping they make the finals. There are a few teams like the Pacers who are right up at the tax line but I don't see that adding Simmons would put them over the top to beat the Bucks and make the finals. They'd have to give up Brogdon and someone else and picks and that's where I can't find a value I like. If you subtract Brogdon, and Warren (if he was healthy) I don't see the remaining team being good enough to win it all.

yea middle of road teams like pacers should have no intrest in ben. 1 he doesn't fit their culture at all and their pretty good d when healthy. Teams like blazers who maybe they make they one trade does that put them to contender. Dame clearly wants to win hes already stated hes frustrated about the team. i think blazers know they have to do something different. Hiring billups was one thing
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Re: A bad CJ McCollum for Tobias Harris trade 

Post#52 » by basketballwacko2 » Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:59 pm

Ballerhogger wrote:
basketballwacko2 wrote:
Ballerhogger wrote:if winning a ring is closE or something you can do i think as contender money isnt issue.


It has to be a team in a large market and they have to be close to winning the championship. I couldn't justify going into the tax for anything less than a team getting to the finals. IF there was no cap and tax then I say let the Billionaire owners pay these guys any amount they want. Right now we have 5-6 teams who are deep in the tax all hoping they make the finals. There are a few teams like the Pacers who are right up at the tax line but I don't see that adding Simmons would put them over the top to beat the Bucks and make the finals. They'd have to give up Brogdon and someone else and picks and that's where I can't find a value I like. If you subtract Brogdon, and Warren (if he was healthy) I don't see the remaining team being good enough to win it all.

yea middle of road teams like pacers should have no intrest in ben. 1 he doesn't fit their culture at all and their pretty good d when healthy. Teams like blazers who maybe they make they one trade does that put them to contender. Dame clearly wants to win hes already stated hes frustrated about the team. i think blazers know they have to do something different. Hiring billups was one thing


Yeah and I didn't address the other two players CJ and Tobias both are decent players but they wouldn't give us enough to justify the money they'll make or the assets we would have to send out for them.
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Re: A bad CJ McCollum for Tobias Harris trade 

Post#53 » by Ballerhogger » Tue Sep 14, 2021 4:01 pm

basketballwacko2 wrote:
Ballerhogger wrote:
basketballwacko2 wrote:
It has to be a team in a large market and they have to be close to winning the championship. I couldn't justify going into the tax for anything less than a team getting to the finals. IF there was no cap and tax then I say let the Billionaire owners pay these guys any amount they want. Right now we have 5-6 teams who are deep in the tax all hoping they make the finals. There are a few teams like the Pacers who are right up at the tax line but I don't see that adding Simmons would put them over the top to beat the Bucks and make the finals. They'd have to give up Brogdon and someone else and picks and that's where I can't find a value I like. If you subtract Brogdon, and Warren (if he was healthy) I don't see the remaining team being good enough to win it all.

yea middle of road teams like pacers should have no intrest in ben. 1 he doesn't fit their culture at all and their pretty good d when healthy. Teams like blazers who maybe they make they one trade does that put them to contender. Dame clearly wants to win hes already stated hes frustrated about the team. i think blazers know they have to do something different. Hiring billups was one thing


Yeah and I didn't address the other two players CJ and Tobias both are decent players but they wouldn't give us enough to justify the money they'll make or the assets we would have to send out for them.

oh i agree pacers are not good trade partner for either of those teams. even as 3rd team i dont see why the pacers would trade with them right now.
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Re: A bad CJ McCollum for Tobias Harris trade 

Post#54 » by kuclas » Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:30 pm

basketballwacko2 wrote:
kuclas wrote:The “no” from Portland fan for
Tobias Harris vs CJ trade basically shows how much more Ben Simmons is worth.

What Ben Simmons value is. No one knows at this point. Morey has set a price. No one has met his price.

Especially these three way deals some fans post like some Bagley/hield/Barnes

Trade for Siakam/FVV

With Simmons sending Simmons/Curry out

Than I ask fans if you cut Simmons/Curry out

Would you trade FVV/Siakam for Barnes/hield/Bagley

The straight answer is no from raptors fans.


I can't seem to get a handle on Simmons value wise. He's a good all around player but his very poor shooting from more than 10 feet from the hoop stops me on calling him more than a very good player. His 60% from the FT line is also a huge issue to me. I can't see Siakam and FVV for Ben, but I also can't see CJ McCollum enough for Ben. A SF who can't shoot is a real problem, if he's the PG he still can't shoot and if a PF in this day they are expected to shoot also.

So I just don't know what to offer for him or what team wants him.


That’s the issue with Simmons. Don’t really know the trade value. Obviously if teams can get away offering their 3rd or worst players for him and some picks. They will take a flyer on Simmons

Just because all the things he does well. Despite no shot. He can still score. He’s proven he can score WHEN HE WANTS to. Especially in transition. He had a mental breakdown refusing to shoot in hawks series and that’s all anyone remembers. Despite what his offensive shooting range is. He’s a legit 6 foot 9.5 without shoes. Meaning he’s 6 11 with shoes and Uber fast in transition with above average handles for player his height. Height can do a lot for simmons.

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