Wiseman to OKC

Moderators: loserX, Trader_Joe, Mamba4Goat, Andre Roberstan, BullyKing, Texas Chuck, pacers33granger, HartfordWhalers

User avatar
eminence
RealGM
Posts: 10,061
And1: 6,309
Joined: Mar 07, 2015
 

Re: Wiseman to OKC 

Post#21 » by eminence » Tue Sep 14, 2021 12:02 am

Ballerhogger wrote:Dort should lot promise last year almost beat us hes not going away for nothing


Is Wiseman no value to some folks?

That seems extreme.
'17-'18 APBR Win Projections Champion (1st of 20)
'18-'19 5th of 18
'19-'20 2nd of 17
DoItALL9
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,564
And1: 1,001
Joined: Oct 08, 2016
       

Re: Wiseman to OKC 

Post#22 » by DoItALL9 » Tue Sep 14, 2021 12:03 am

Jahlil Okafor?

Sent from my LM-G710 using RealGM mobile app
Ballerhogger
RealGM
Posts: 34,156
And1: 10,561
Joined: Jul 06, 2014
       

Re: Wiseman to OKC 

Post#23 » by Ballerhogger » Tue Sep 14, 2021 12:04 am

eminence wrote:
Ballerhogger wrote:Dort should lot promise last year almost beat us hes not going away for nothing


Is Wiseman no value to some folks?

That seems extreme.

yes he showed people nothing year 1 dort was productive at least.
nolang1
Assistant Coach
Posts: 3,934
And1: 1,739
Joined: Aug 03, 2012

Re: Wiseman to OKC 

Post#24 » by nolang1 » Tue Sep 14, 2021 12:10 am

I'm not sure what value Dort has to a win-now team like the Warriors. Is he just supposed to be a cheaper, worse version of Marcus Smart? Does Smart even have more trade value than Dort due to age/contract?
User avatar
eminence
RealGM
Posts: 10,061
And1: 6,309
Joined: Mar 07, 2015
 

Re: Wiseman to OKC 

Post#25 » by eminence » Tue Sep 14, 2021 12:13 am

nolang1 wrote:I'm not sure what value Dort has to a win-now team like the Warriors. Is he just supposed to be a cheaper, worse version of Marcus Smart? Does Smart even have more trade value than Dort due to age/contract?


Sure, Smart is a reasonable comparison in role. I'd value Dort more right now mainly due to contract, as I view Dort as reasonably close to his ceiling (age not a big factor).
'17-'18 APBR Win Projections Champion (1st of 20)
'18-'19 5th of 18
'19-'20 2nd of 17
nolang1
Assistant Coach
Posts: 3,934
And1: 1,739
Joined: Aug 03, 2012

Re: Wiseman to OKC 

Post#26 » by nolang1 » Tue Sep 14, 2021 12:22 am

eminence wrote:
nolang1 wrote:I'm not sure what value Dort has to a win-now team like the Warriors. Is he just supposed to be a cheaper, worse version of Marcus Smart? Does Smart even have more trade value than Dort due to age/contract?


Sure, Smart is a reasonable comparison in role. I'd value Dort more right now mainly due to contract, as I view Dort as reasonably close to his ceiling (age not a big factor).


Yeah, I figured as much where the Warriors might as well just go for Smart in a move that probably costs them less in all aspects other than extra millions in luxury tax payments for their billionaire owners. If you're trying to move from Wiseman for better present value, I'm not sure Dort offers that much more than like an Avery Bradley off the waiver wire.
User avatar
eminence
RealGM
Posts: 10,061
And1: 6,309
Joined: Mar 07, 2015
 

Re: Wiseman to OKC 

Post#27 » by eminence » Tue Sep 14, 2021 12:34 am

nolang1 wrote:
eminence wrote:
nolang1 wrote:I'm not sure what value Dort has to a win-now team like the Warriors. Is he just supposed to be a cheaper, worse version of Marcus Smart? Does Smart even have more trade value than Dort due to age/contract?


Sure, Smart is a reasonable comparison in role. I'd value Dort more right now mainly due to contract, as I view Dort as reasonably close to his ceiling (age not a big factor).


Yeah, I figured as much where the Warriors might as well just go for Smart in a move that probably costs them less in all aspects other than extra millions in luxury tax payments for their billionaire owners. If you're trying to move from Wiseman for better present value, I'm not sure Dort offers that much more than like an Avery Bradley off the waiver wire.


Smart just got extended, so I don't see him as all that likely to move.

We disagree on Dort's quality, I have him slightly behind Smart and well above Bradley.
'17-'18 APBR Win Projections Champion (1st of 20)
'18-'19 5th of 18
'19-'20 2nd of 17
nolang1
Assistant Coach
Posts: 3,934
And1: 1,739
Joined: Aug 03, 2012

Re: Wiseman to OKC 

Post#28 » by nolang1 » Tue Sep 14, 2021 12:45 am

eminence wrote:
nolang1 wrote:
eminence wrote:
Sure, Smart is a reasonable comparison in role. I'd value Dort more right now mainly due to contract, as I view Dort as reasonably close to his ceiling (age not a big factor).


Yeah, I figured as much where the Warriors might as well just go for Smart in a move that probably costs them less in all aspects other than extra millions in luxury tax payments for their billionaire owners. If you're trying to move from Wiseman for better present value, I'm not sure Dort offers that much more than like an Avery Bradley off the waiver wire.


Smart just got extended, so I don't see him as all that likely to move.

We disagree on Dort's quality, I have him slightly behind Smart and well above Bradley.


Rather than nit-picking on Bradley in particular when I just threw his name out as whoever the best defensive guard is out there for a 2-way/minimum (if you think Dort has better trade value than the much better player in Smart due to contract, then the same should apply to someone who is a few years from being at his peak and will be a free agent in 2023 versus the best of the scrap heap), I don't value Dort (best-case of Smart minus a lot of playmaking, doesn't create as many turnovers as his defensive reputation suggests) that highly for this year's Warriors. Besides, wanting a defensive guard with a limited outside shot is pretty much a tacit admission that Klay is not going to be anywhere close to his previous form, in which case you should probably be considering something bigger than this more lateral move. Might as well hope for a Wiseman breakout at that cost because a bench guard like Dort isn't pushing them into title contention in the short term.
Dadouv47
Forum Mod - Thunder
Forum Mod - Thunder
Posts: 7,968
And1: 3,512
Joined: Mar 22, 2015
   

Re: Wiseman to OKC 

Post#29 » by Dadouv47 » Tue Sep 14, 2021 12:47 am

Value wise I would definitely trade Dort for Wiseman but I'm reluctant to trade SGA's best friend...we already traded 90% of our roster since we got SGA and if he's planning to stay in OKC long term, I would rather keep his friend close to him. Could be silly but you can't really evaluate that kind of value (even more in a small market team)
User avatar
eminence
RealGM
Posts: 10,061
And1: 6,309
Joined: Mar 07, 2015
 

Re: Wiseman to OKC 

Post#30 » by eminence » Tue Sep 14, 2021 1:10 am

nolang1 wrote:
eminence wrote:
nolang1 wrote:
Yeah, I figured as much where the Warriors might as well just go for Smart in a move that probably costs them less in all aspects other than extra millions in luxury tax payments for their billionaire owners. If you're trying to move from Wiseman for better present value, I'm not sure Dort offers that much more than like an Avery Bradley off the waiver wire.


Smart just got extended, so I don't see him as all that likely to move.

We disagree on Dort's quality, I have him slightly behind Smart and well above Bradley.


Rather than nit-picking on Bradley in particular when I just threw his name out as whoever the best defensive guard is out there for a 2-way/minimum (if you think Dort has better trade value than the much better player in Smart due to contract, then the same should apply to someone who is a few years from being at his peak and will be a free agent in 2023 versus the best of the scrap heap), I don't value Dort (best-case of Smart minus a lot of playmaking, doesn't create as many turnovers as his defensive reputation suggests) that highly for this year's Warriors. Besides, wanting a defensive guard with a limited outside shot is pretty much a tacit admission that Klay is not going to be anywhere close to his previous form, in which case you should probably be considering something bigger than this more lateral move. Might as well hope for a Wiseman breakout at that cost because a bench guard like Dort isn't pushing them into title contention in the short term.


So yeah, we disagree on Dort, I don't think Smart is 'much better' than Dort at all. I view Smart as a 4th starter for a contender, Dort as a 5th starter you expect to develop into that 4th starter (with some small hopes for more than that). No guy currently on the free agency market comes even close to that.
'17-'18 APBR Win Projections Champion (1st of 20)
'18-'19 5th of 18
'19-'20 2nd of 17
nolang1
Assistant Coach
Posts: 3,934
And1: 1,739
Joined: Aug 03, 2012

Re: Wiseman to OKC 

Post#31 » by nolang1 » Tue Sep 14, 2021 1:46 am

eminence wrote:
nolang1 wrote:
eminence wrote:
Smart just got extended, so I don't see him as all that likely to move.

We disagree on Dort's quality, I have him slightly behind Smart and well above Bradley.


Rather than nit-picking on Bradley in particular when I just threw his name out as whoever the best defensive guard is out there for a 2-way/minimum (if you think Dort has better trade value than the much better player in Smart due to contract, then the same should apply to someone who is a few years from being at his peak and will be a free agent in 2023 versus the best of the scrap heap), I don't value Dort (best-case of Smart minus a lot of playmaking, doesn't create as many turnovers as his defensive reputation suggests) that highly for this year's Warriors. Besides, wanting a defensive guard with a limited outside shot is pretty much a tacit admission that Klay is not going to be anywhere close to his previous form, in which case you should probably be considering something bigger than this more lateral move. Might as well hope for a Wiseman breakout at that cost because a bench guard like Dort isn't pushing them into title contention in the short term.


So yeah, we disagree on Dort, I don't think Smart is 'much better' than Dort at all. I view Smart as a 4th starter for a contender, Dort as a 5th starter you expect to develop into that 4th starter (with some small hopes for more than that). No guy currently on the free agency market comes even close to that.


Putting aside how nonsensical that is (when you're down to the 4th vs. 5th starter, there isn't a whole lot of difference - once you get down to who the ~100th-best player in the league is, the talent level is significantly leveled off and it has much more to do with fit or how talented your 1st-3rd best players are) I'd say yeah, getting a 5th vs. 4th starter alone is a pretty big difference for how old the Warriors' main players are. Either way, wanting a player like that to be a token stationary three-point threat that defenses still help off of (when a contested Steph three is better than an open Dort one) for pretty much the sole benefit of defending the matchups Steph and injured Klay can't (when I'm not even sure how much better that would be than Iguodala in that regard) doesn't seem to be more than shuffling deck chairs.
User avatar
eminence
RealGM
Posts: 10,061
And1: 6,309
Joined: Mar 07, 2015
 

Re: Wiseman to OKC 

Post#32 » by eminence » Tue Sep 14, 2021 1:59 am

nolang1 wrote:
eminence wrote:
nolang1 wrote:
Rather than nit-picking on Bradley in particular when I just threw his name out as whoever the best defensive guard is out there for a 2-way/minimum (if you think Dort has better trade value than the much better player in Smart due to contract, then the same should apply to someone who is a few years from being at his peak and will be a free agent in 2023 versus the best of the scrap heap), I don't value Dort (best-case of Smart minus a lot of playmaking, doesn't create as many turnovers as his defensive reputation suggests) that highly for this year's Warriors. Besides, wanting a defensive guard with a limited outside shot is pretty much a tacit admission that Klay is not going to be anywhere close to his previous form, in which case you should probably be considering something bigger than this more lateral move. Might as well hope for a Wiseman breakout at that cost because a bench guard like Dort isn't pushing them into title contention in the short term.


So yeah, we disagree on Dort, I don't think Smart is 'much better' than Dort at all. I view Smart as a 4th starter for a contender, Dort as a 5th starter you expect to develop into that 4th starter (with some small hopes for more than that). No guy currently on the free agency market comes even close to that.


Putting aside how nonsensical that is (when you're down to the 4th vs. 5th starter, there isn't a whole lot of difference - once you get down to who the ~100th-best player in the league is, the talent level is significantly leveled off and it has much more to do with fit or how talented your 1st-3rd best players are) I'd say yeah, getting a 5th vs. 4th starter alone is a pretty big difference for how old the Warriors' main players are. Either way, wanting a player like that to be a token stationary three-point threat that defenses still help off of (when a contested Steph three is better than an open Dort one) for pretty much the sole benefit of defending the matchups Steph and injured Klay can't (when I'm not even sure how much better that would be than Iguodala in that regard) doesn't seem to be more than shuffling deck chairs.


Some might word that as having a 'slight' preference between options from that tier.

The rest - you appear to believe the Warriors shouldn't be making moves unless they're for stars. That's fine. I disagree. I certainly wish Iguodala was still comparable to Dort (obviously more than that in his prime).
'17-'18 APBR Win Projections Champion (1st of 20)
'18-'19 5th of 18
'19-'20 2nd of 17
User avatar
DroseReturnChi
Head Coach
Posts: 6,396
And1: 1,810
Joined: Feb 12, 2012
   

Re: Wiseman to OKC 

Post#33 » by DroseReturnChi » Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:14 am

im wiseman doubter but boy that is reality too harsh. a number 2 pick is now worth scrubs.
Doncic will be goat. Lauri will be his sidekick.
sonictecture
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 12,161
And1: 956
Joined: May 26, 2002

Re: Wiseman to OKC 

Post#34 » by sonictecture » Tue Sep 14, 2021 4:11 am

I don’t see team building as simply a series of winning value in trades. Wiseman should have more value than Dort at this time, but I don’t want Wiseman. I’m not a believer in his potential.
Devilanche
Analyst
Posts: 3,477
And1: 419
Joined: Dec 22, 2010

Re: Wiseman to OKC 

Post#35 » by Devilanche » Tue Sep 14, 2021 4:24 am

DroseReturnChi wrote:im wiseman doubter but boy that is reality too harsh. a number 2 pick is now worth scrubs.

I don’t think dort is scrubs now and most OKC take here is that we want to do it or we can see the value but we still won’t do it (sonic’s view I believe)

I’m torn cause I think short term dort will have the higher value but I’m not sure how likely that wiseman will reach 80-90% of his potential .
cjmcallist
Pro Prospect
Posts: 946
And1: 359
Joined: Jul 27, 2018
 

Re: Wiseman to OKC 

Post#36 » by cjmcallist » Tue Sep 14, 2021 11:29 am

I think I’d do it for OKC but it would hurt.

Wiseman is really an unknown: low, low floor but high ceiling. Dort has a very high floor but lower ceiling.

People forget that Dort is effectively in his second year now. He feels older but he is younger than two(?) lotto picks this 2021 draft.

But OKC should really be swinging for the fences. My only caveat is if OKC has a desirable extension worked out with Dort. If we can lock him up on a Smart-type long deal (~$14m), we should probably keep him.
Commodor
Starter
Posts: 2,246
And1: 389
Joined: Jul 24, 2008
     

Re: Wiseman to OKC 

Post#37 » by Commodor » Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:38 pm

eminence wrote:I guess I don't get writing the depth chart like that, I'd love if Poole (or Dort in this scenario) were better playmakers, but they aren't. Someone will still be playing the 'pg' spot when Steph sits even if the playmaking load is more distributed. If you know of any good playmakers we could target (who make a comparable amount to Dort) feel free to post the deal - off the top of my head Jalen Brunson might be the only one in the league.

I obviously agree on the value of Favors, but Dort is the value of this deal, not Favors. Favors is a way to directly get a rotation quality big when it may be otherwise tricky to fill that role. Muscala would be a reasonable option as well directly from the Thunder, but that trade would have to wait a bit longer.

Obviously I would've liked Gasol, he also pretty obviously turned us down. Past that, there's nobody equal to Favors on the FA market left (unless Baynes heals).


I can understand saying Poole is a distributor as we have tried to develop him as a PG for a couple years but in reality he's played much better as an attacking scorer than distributor.

Dort can only be related to a 1 spot because his height. He averaged 1.7 assists this year and .8 last year what am I missing? That is not his role and when I say that is a need for the team I mean we need a real distributor. Not someone who is short.

Pre-draft this may have made some more sense but now I cannot imagine GSW giving up Wiseman for more wing depth.
Ballerhogger
RealGM
Posts: 34,156
And1: 10,561
Joined: Jul 06, 2014
       

Re: Wiseman to OKC 

Post#38 » by Ballerhogger » Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:57 pm

Whats wisemen value other than being lottery pick . dort gives 3 ppg more . i dont see the value at all for wiseman
User avatar
eminence
RealGM
Posts: 10,061
And1: 6,309
Joined: Mar 07, 2015
 

Re: Wiseman to OKC 

Post#39 » by eminence » Tue Sep 14, 2021 4:30 pm

Commodor wrote:
eminence wrote:I guess I don't get writing the depth chart like that, I'd love if Poole (or Dort in this scenario) were better playmakers, but they aren't. Someone will still be playing the 'pg' spot when Steph sits even if the playmaking load is more distributed. If you know of any good playmakers we could target (who make a comparable amount to Dort) feel free to post the deal - off the top of my head Jalen Brunson might be the only one in the league.

I obviously agree on the value of Favors, but Dort is the value of this deal, not Favors. Favors is a way to directly get a rotation quality big when it may be otherwise tricky to fill that role. Muscala would be a reasonable option as well directly from the Thunder, but that trade would have to wait a bit longer.

Obviously I would've liked Gasol, he also pretty obviously turned us down. Past that, there's nobody equal to Favors on the FA market left (unless Baynes heals).


I can understand saying Poole is a distributor as we have tried to develop him as a PG for a couple years but in reality he's played much better as an attacking scorer than distributor.

Dort can only be related to a 1 spot because his height. He averaged 1.7 assists this year and .8 last year what am I missing? That is not his role and when I say that is a need for the team I mean we need a real distributor. Not someone who is short.

Pre-draft this may have made some more sense but now I cannot imagine GSW giving up Wiseman for more wing depth.


I said that the playmaking load is distributed, not that Poole/Dort are distributors. Dray/Steph then Iggy (not sure what he's got left) is our playmaking hierarchy. JTA/Looney/Poole are all decent passers that can fit into the system if not particularly noteworthy. OPJ/Klay/Wiggins not particularly good passers, but not blackholes either.

I think we had more problems on the offensive glass than anything related to playmaking.

One of the reasons I originally suggested Favors as the big to fill Wisemans slot in this deal, as he's a very strong offensive rebounder.
'17-'18 APBR Win Projections Champion (1st of 20)
'18-'19 5th of 18
'19-'20 2nd of 17
User avatar
eminence
RealGM
Posts: 10,061
And1: 6,309
Joined: Mar 07, 2015
 

Re: Wiseman to OKC 

Post#40 » by eminence » Tue Sep 14, 2021 4:32 pm

Ballerhogger wrote:Whats wisemen value other than being lottery pick . dort gives 3 ppg more . i dont see the value at all for wiseman


Young guy with top tier measurables and at least some baseline skill in terms of shooting/handling.

He's not a good player today, same as most young guys.
'17-'18 APBR Win Projections Champion (1st of 20)
'18-'19 5th of 18
'19-'20 2nd of 17

Return to Trades and Transactions