Ben Simmons trades go here (and here only): Expect warnings if not following forum rules

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Re: Ben Simmons trades go here (and here only): Expect warnings if not following forum rules 

Post#101 » by Van_Trump » Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:49 pm

Simmons for Kyrie Irving

I know, I know, not gonna happen.
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Re: Ben Simmons trades go here (and here only): Expect warnings if not following forum rules 

Post#102 » by Van_Trump » Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:57 pm

I think someone should point out that all these Kings trades that include Mitchell don't fit into the time frame of trading Simmons before the season starts.

You have to wait a few months before you can trade your newly signed rookies.
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Re: Ben Simmons trades go here (and here only): Expect warnings if not following forum rules 

Post#103 » by jbk1234 » Wed Sep 15, 2021 1:13 pm

babyjax13 wrote:I'll add a little more detail:

I think this season is the absolute floor of Simmons' production. He had well-publicized family issues, there were chemistry issues on the team, and they system and players just don't match his strengths at all.

He posted a career worst in BPM (2.7BPM) while CJ at 29 had his best season, one that might even be an outlier as his BPM doubled from his prior best year (this past season 3.3BPM). Before this season, how many times has CJ exceeded a 2.0 BPM? Exactly none (one season at exactly 2.0).

If we switch over to RAPTOR CJ has been better than Simmons every year, but I think how players fit in a system has a much bigger impact there with their player tracking, and Simmons has been on horribly coached teams. I think it does point to any gap being smaller than I anticipated, though - so I'll concede it isn't absurd that someone would think CJ is better - but I think there is good reason to think that's not the case. But, even if we say it's a wash in terms of on-the-court value, there is still the matter of Simmons being so much younger, and I think that matters quite a bit.

I do think that the value difference, however, is not exceedingly large. If Portland includes say, Nassir Little and Anfernee Simons in the swap, or a first round pick, that seems like appropriate compensation.
What scares me off of Simmons, and something I hope the powers that be in the Cavs F.O. is at least think about, is that you can't scheme around a key player's inability to hit free throws once opposing teams decide to try to exploit it.

I don't have it as a lock that this is Simmons at his low point.

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It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: Ben Simmons trades go here (and here only): Expect warnings if not following forum rules 

Post#104 » by aguiar95 » Wed Sep 15, 2021 1:23 pm

Big Simmons Trade:

UTA in: Covington.
UTA out: Bogdanovic, Azubuike, '26 1st (lottery protected).

Why? Gives them another excellent defender and a viable option to play small-ball center against certain matchups. Oneale/RoCo/Gobert is a nightmare for opposing offenses.

Conley/Butler
Mitchell/Clarkson
O'Neale/Ingles
Covington/Gay
Gobert/Whiteside

POR in: Simmons, Bogdanovic, Azubuike.
POR out: McCollum, Covington, '22 POR 1st (unprotected), '24 POR 1st (top-4 protected), '26 POR 1st (top-8 protected).

Why? They get the best player in the deal and a shooter to complement the rest of the roster.

Lillard/Simons
Powell/Snell
Bogdanovic/Little
Simmons/Nance Jr.
Nurkic/Zeller

PHI in: McCollum, Sexton, '24 POR 1st (top-4 protected), '26 POR 1st (top-8 protected).
PHI out: Simmons, Maxey.

Why? They get to ready to contribute players and stash some picks in their chest for when an opportunity occurs.

Sexton/Curry
McCollum/Korkmaz
Green/Thybulle
Harris/Niang
Embiid/Drummond

CLE in: Maxey, '22 POR 1st (unprotected), '26 UTA 1st (lottery protected).
CLE out: Sexton.

Why? They get two picks and a prospect for a guy that overlaps with Garland and is about to get paid.

Garland/Rubio
Okoro/Dotson
Osman/Windler
Mobley/Markkanen
Allen/Love
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Re: Ben Simmons trades go here (and here only): Expect warnings if not following forum rules 

Post#105 » by shrink » Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:23 pm

zimpy27 wrote:I disagree with you that Simmons is damaged goods. He's considered by most to be a top 30 player and is still young

I know this agrees with the narrative of the thread, but I don’t see how anyone can’t see a little damage in these goods. The shooting is an issue. Refusing to shoot/confidence is an issue. And part of the value of youth is the likelihood of development, to overcome a player’s weaknesses, and we have not seen this in Ben. That’s an issue too.

I tend to agree with Windhorst’s assessment on “damage”:

if you wanted a certain house, and you loved the house, loved the neighborhood, but you realize that a whole wing of the house had to be completely gutted and redone, you’re not paying top of the market price. If the owner wants top of the market price, you can’t buy it. You say, “well, I really like the house, but I have to buy it as a fixer upper, and fix it up myself.” Attractive player, but he’s a little damaged, and you need to pay damaged price.
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Re: Ben Simmons trades go here (and here only): Expect warnings if not following forum rules 

Post#106 » by HartfordWhalers » Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:30 pm

shrink wrote:I know this agrees with the narrative of the thread


That is an interesting take.

After all, almost every single page is filled with posts claiming something that looks not just like calling Simmons flawed or damaged, but shooting past that to an actual bad contract and not worth such esteemed players as Kuzma (actual example used in this thread so far). I would argue that those form more of the narrative of the thread, but perhaps the middle ground is accurate. There are some very dueling views of Simmons held by different posters.
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Re: Ben Simmons trades go here (and here only): Expect warnings if not following forum rules 

Post#107 » by Roy The Natural » Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:49 pm

babyjax13 wrote:
Ballerhogger wrote:CJ is averaging almost 10 more points than a game. 76ers d isnt as good without ben but they have others who can defend,Thy being one them. CJ is 76.9 FT in the post season 34.2% that's 42.7 difference. Ben is not shooter at all. You need you 2nd best player on your team to be able to shoot if you want to win in this league. For all defensive measurements Ben gives you , he hurts you on offense. CJ is no all first defender, but the scoring difference is huge


There is a lot more than scoring, if we are looking only at scoring, sure - but CJ is a bad defender, and just an average playmaker at the 1/2. Simmons is elite at both, and an elite finisher. He had a down year by advance metric, but typically grades out better than CJ, and he'd be going somewhere that all his talents would be fully utilized and match the star player of the team perfectly. Disagree with everything else - you don't need your second best player 'to be a shooter', you need to put together a team where everyone's strengths and weaknesses balance out. Philadelphia is not that team, Portland with Lillard/Simmons would be (likewise, I think CJ/Embiid are also a nice fit).


Depends on what metrics you look at. Look at the last 3 years of RAPTOR and RPM. I think you'll be surprised at the results.
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Re: Ben Simmons trades go here (and here only): Expect warnings if not following forum rules 

Post#108 » by BullyKing » Wed Sep 15, 2021 3:14 pm

gambitx777 wrote:
babyjax13 wrote:I can't get Simmons to Washington out of my head, I think that fit is just fantastic, but I don't know what a viable trade looks like because it HAS to be a three way. Philly isn't going to want Deni, or any of Washington's other prospects.

WAS trades: Deni Avdija, Rui Hachimura, Montrezl Harrell, Kyle Kuzma, picks as needed to balance
WAS receives: Ben Simmons

Team X trades: ???
Team X receives: Washington package

Philly trades: Ben Simmons
Philly receives: ???

You have people who look at his premadana antics

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Since you seem obsessed with the word "premadana," you should probably know the word is "primadonna". Unless "premadana" is actually a different word that means serial killer about to serve life in prison although even then I have Simmons with more value than Kuzma.
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Re: Ben Simmons trades go here (and here only): Expect warnings if not following forum rules 

Post#109 » by Ballerhogger » Wed Sep 15, 2021 3:23 pm

BullyKing wrote:
gambitx777 wrote:
babyjax13 wrote:I can't get Simmons to Washington out of my head, I think that fit is just fantastic, but I don't know what a viable trade looks like because it HAS to be a three way. Philly isn't going to want Deni, or any of Washington's other prospects.

WAS trades: Deni Avdija, Rui Hachimura, Montrezl Harrell, Kyle Kuzma, picks as needed to balance
WAS receives: Ben Simmons

Team X trades: ???
Team X receives: Washington package

Philly trades: Ben Simmons
Philly receives: ???

You have people who look at his premadana antics

Sent from my SM-G991U1 using RealGM mobile app


Since you seem obsessed with the word "premadana," you should probably know the word is "primadonna". Unless "premadana" is actually a different word that means serial killer about to serve life in prison although even then I have Simmons with more value than Kuzma.

:lol: :lol:
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Re: Ben Simmons trades go here (and here only): Expect warnings if not following forum rules 

Post#110 » by HartfordWhalers » Wed Sep 15, 2021 3:25 pm

Van_Trump wrote:I think someone should point out that all these Kings trades that include Mitchell don't fit into the time frame of trading Simmons before the season starts.

You have to wait a few months before you can trade your newly signed rookies.


1st round rookies actually can be traded just 30 days after signing. It is what happened with Wiggins for instance.
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Re: Ben Simmons trades go here (and here only): Expect warnings if not following forum rules 

Post#111 » by babyjax13 » Wed Sep 15, 2021 3:41 pm

Roy The Natural wrote:
babyjax13 wrote:
Ballerhogger wrote:CJ is averaging almost 10 more points than a game. 76ers d isnt as good without ben but they have others who can defend,Thy being one them. CJ is 76.9 FT in the post season 34.2% that's 42.7 difference. Ben is not shooter at all. You need you 2nd best player on your team to be able to shoot if you want to win in this league. For all defensive measurements Ben gives you , he hurts you on offense. CJ is no all first defender, but the scoring difference is huge


There is a lot more than scoring, if we are looking only at scoring, sure - but CJ is a bad defender, and just an average playmaker at the 1/2. Simmons is elite at both, and an elite finisher. He had a down year by advance metric, but typically grades out better than CJ, and he'd be going somewhere that all his talents would be fully utilized and match the star player of the team perfectly. Disagree with everything else - you don't need your second best player 'to be a shooter', you need to put together a team where everyone's strengths and weaknesses balance out. Philadelphia is not that team, Portland with Lillard/Simmons would be (likewise, I think CJ/Embiid are also a nice fit).


Depends on what metrics you look at. Look at the last 3 years of RAPTOR and RPM. I think you'll be surprised at the results.

I don't buy RPM as a useful metric at all, but you are right about RAPTOR (which I mentioned in a subsequent post).
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Re: Ben Simmons trades go here (and here only): Expect warnings if not following forum rules 

Post#112 » by Texas Chuck » Wed Sep 15, 2021 3:43 pm

shrink wrote:
zimpy27 wrote:I disagree with you that Simmons is damaged goods. He's considered by most to be a top 30 player and is still young

I know this agrees with the narrative of the thread, but I don’t see how anyone can’t see a little damage in these goods. The shooting is an issue. Refusing to shoot/confidence is an issue. And part of the value of youth is the likelihood of development, to overcome a player’s weaknesses, and we have not seen this in Ben. That’s an issue too.

I tend to agree with Windhorst’s assessment on “damage”:

if you wanted a certain house, and you loved the house, loved the neighborhood, but you realize that a whole wing of the house had to be completely gutted and redone, you’re not paying top of the market price. If the owner wants top of the market price, you can’t buy it. You say, “well, I really like the house, but I have to buy it as a fixer upper, and fix it up myself.” Attractive player, but he’s a little damaged, and you need to pay damaged price.



I think we have way too much narrative period. And is a weakness really "damage"? Luka Doncic is a poor FT shooter and commits careless turnovers, has some poor shot selection issues, isn't a particularly good defender, lets his emotions run away with him leading to constant ref-baiting, maybe he's fat etc...

Those are all flaws to his game. But if he was on the trade market would teams only focus on that one crack in the foundation, and some chips in the paint in the living room, and the lot needs a lot of landscaping help? Or might they look at a generational offensive player and make a huge offer?

Or Karl Towns. Still a bad defensive center. Still some real questions about where he is mentally, how competitive he is. But if he asked out, I think despite those flaws we'd all expect a pretty good return for a guy with his offensive skills, age, and contract status.


Now I'm not trying to argue Simmons has Luka value or even Towns value. Just pointing out Windhorst's analogy is pretty dumb. Every single player in the league has weaknesses. Even Lebron. Doesn't make them damaged. It simply makes them human.
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Re: Ben Simmons trades go here (and here only): Expect warnings if not following forum rules 

Post#113 » by shrink » Wed Sep 15, 2021 3:54 pm

HartfordWhalers wrote:
shrink wrote:I know this agrees with the narrative of the thread


That is an interesting take.

After all, almost every single page is filled with posts claiming something that looks not just like calling Simmons flawed or damaged, but shooting past that to an actual bad contract and not worth such esteemed players as Kuzma (actual example used in this thread so far). I would argue that those form more of the narrative of the thread, but perhaps the middle ground is accurate. There are some very dueling views of Simmons held by different posters.

It seems to me there are far more posters pushing the “superstar value” position, and these people are far more likely to label opposing views as “narratives.”

I think both sides should be treating different opinions, and posters, with more respect.
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Re: Ben Simmons trades go here (and here only): Expect warnings if not following forum rules 

Post#114 » by loserX » Wed Sep 15, 2021 4:01 pm

HartfordWhalers wrote:
Van_Trump wrote:I think someone should point out that all these Kings trades that include Mitchell don't fit into the time frame of trading Simmons before the season starts.

You have to wait a few months before you can trade your newly signed rookies.


1st round rookies actually can be traded just 30 days after signing. It is what happened with Wiggins for instance.


Hartford is (of course) correct. It is only free agents, not draftees, who have to wait several months to be traded after signing (except in S&Ts).
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Re: Ben Simmons trades go here (and here only): Expect warnings if not following forum rules 

Post#115 » by Texas Chuck » Wed Sep 15, 2021 4:09 pm

shrink wrote:It seems to me there are far more posters pushing the “superstar value” position, and these people are far more likely to label opposing views as “narratives.”

I think both sides should be treating different opinions, and posters, with more respect.


I'm calling views based on narrative alone, "narratives". And I won't apologize for that. Nor do I think its disrespectful. I think its an accurate description. If those people feel disrespected that their weak "argument" isn't just being accepted on face value they should strengthen their argument.

There are posters who think Simmons value is much lower than I do who take the time to make salient points. I may disagree, but I engage with those posters differently. But silly narratives should not be treated as equally worthy of consideration. We should treat posters with respect, but we don't have to treat all opinions with respect. No, sorry.
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Re: Ben Simmons trades go here (and here only): Expect warnings if not following forum rules 

Post#116 » by shrink » Wed Sep 15, 2021 4:09 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:Just pointing out Windhorst's analogy is pretty dumb. Every single player in the league has weaknesses. Even Lebron. Doesn't make them damaged. It simply makes them human.

Windhorst also addressed players with flaws, but he used Giannis as his example, and refered to Doc being honest.

“It’s one thing to not be able to shoot well (like Giannis) versus being afraid to shoot. Ben isn’t liking to step into the batter’s box. Giannis has skill limitations, but he won’t let them hold him back, but Ben’s skill limitations very clearly hold him back. If I remember clearly, in a seven game series against Atlanta, he took three shots in the fourth quarter. How can anyone say that’s a championship performance?”
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Re: Ben Simmons trades go here (and here only): Expect warnings if not following forum rules 

Post#117 » by Texas Chuck » Wed Sep 15, 2021 4:13 pm

shrink wrote:
Texas Chuck wrote:Just pointing out Windhorst's analogy is pretty dumb. Every single player in the league has weaknesses. Even Lebron. Doesn't make them damaged. It simply makes them human.

Windhorst also addressed players with flaws, but he used Giannis as his example, and refered to Doc being honest.

“It’s one thing to not be able to shoot well (like Giannis) versus being afraid to shoot. Ben isn’t liking to step into the batter’s box. Giannis has skill limitations, but he won’t let them hold him back, but Ben’s skill limitations very clearly hold him back. If I remember clearly, in a seven game series against Atlanta, he took three shots in the fourth quarter. How can anyone say that’s a championship performance?”


It's funny how Giannis is now praised for being willing to shoot 3's because the Bucks won the title when the last 2 years they didn't he got killed for shooting them and was told to get his butt in the paint and stay there.

This is part of what I am talking about where we let narratives drive the story too much.

Of course Simmons lack of 4th quarter aggression against the Hawks was bad. But Lebron did this in the Finals in 2011 and we heard a bunch of this guy can't win and well look how stupid that narrative turned out?

We need to slow down and value Simmons on his entire body of work, not just his worst moments. Lots of people are not doing that and I'm going to continue to strongly disagree with that approach to valuation.
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Re: Ben Simmons trades go here (and here only): Expect warnings if not following forum rules 

Post#118 » by shrink » Wed Sep 15, 2021 4:32 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:We need to slow down and value Simmons on his entire body of work, not just his worst moments. Lots of people are not doing that and I'm going to continue to strongly disagree with that approach to valuation.

This is what you have been labeling as other people’s narrative many times .. that people lower than you on his value are basing it solely on his one game, or one series, performance.

Simmons has been a poor shooter .. for his entire body of work.

Simmons has failed to develop it .. for his entire body of work.

Yes, it was particularly bad in the playoffs (and previous playoffs), and he’s trending downward. He needs to develop in this area and regain his confidence, and so far, he has shown he not good at this .. for his entire body of work.

But this is my point. You may disagree with these assertions, and that’s fine. But to dismiss them and label them as just a narrative based just on his worst moments, is not a fair representation of the view.
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Re: Ben Simmons trades go here (and here only): Expect warnings if not following forum rules 

Post#119 » by Texas Chuck » Wed Sep 15, 2021 4:37 pm

shrink wrote:
Texas Chuck wrote:We need to slow down and value Simmons on his entire body of work, not just his worst moments. Lots of people are not doing that and I'm going to continue to strongly disagree with that approach to valuation.

This is what you have been labeling as other people’s narrative many times .. that people lower than you on his value are basing it solely on his one game, or one series, performance.

But this is my point. You may disagree with these assertions, and that’s fine. But to dismiss them and label them as just a narrative based just on his worst moments, is not a fair representation of the view.


No, this is not what I have been doing as I just told you. There are multiple posters itt that disagree strongly with me on Simmons value but who present actual arguments for why. I don't dismiss them as narrative. I engage and debate as we should.

There are also other posters running wild with narrative and contributing nothing else in their posts, that I will continue to label narrative because its narrative. Just like there are posters who reach the same conclusion as me on all kinds of issues but get there using crazy narratives and I point that out.

Sorry, but I've been here too long, for you to think you can say that I treat people disrespectfully solely because they disagree with me. Go look at every OP I have ever posted and how many people hate my ideas and how I engage with them.

I am allowed to point out weak arguments based solely on narrative. I don't have to say that's a valid point if I don't think it is.
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Re: Ben Simmons trades go here (and here only): Expect warnings if not following forum rules 

Post#120 » by toooskies » Wed Sep 15, 2021 5:41 pm

I'm less low on Simmons' non-shooting than others. I'd much rather have him working to find an open Seth Curry, who was shooting absurdly well in the playoffs this year, than Simmons taking shots.

I also think that there's a ton of potential for Ben's game to grow somewhere that doesn't have a massive paint presence like Embiid. Jarett Allen or Richaun Holmes won't be hogging interior touches like Embiid does.

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