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Re: Ben Simmons trades go here (and here only) 

Post#21 » by HotelVitale » Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:23 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:
HotelVitale wrote: I’d also point to Middleton and Jrue as similar players whom everyone hated as contracts.
I don't think that's actually true. Some people did, but a lot of people did not. And speaking only for me, I've never thought of CJ as being on the level of either of these players particularly Middleton. I think if you traded Simmons and in a different world where Giannis hadn't extended and the Bucks lost in round 1 and he signed with Toronto or something and you ended up with Middleton as the centerpiece I think most people would be like this is a really nice salvage. Jrue, probably not. Not dynamic enough offensively and also older and even more expensive than CJ.

Not trying to compare the four guys, just saying that Harris and CJ would be very capable of having huge games in big moments and all of sudden seeming like great pick-ups well worth their $. The problem with both of them--and Middleton--is that if they're not hitting tough jumpers at a heroic rate they're not very good. Don't get to the line much, can't impose will through driving/passing, don't defend at a high level, don't change the game physically. (And I think what you said may be true of Middleton now, but remember Middleton was widely tarred for not showing up against TOR and seemed like one of those overpaid volume shooters.)

BlazersBroncos wrote: I agree CJ is overpaid, and that he needs to tone down the contested long jumpers. But his age should matter little. At least on offense his game is set to age tremendously well.

Strongly disagree, combo guards who aren't naturally super athletic need every bit of their athleticism and quickness to keep getting up good shots at high volume. CJ still looks spry and he works tremendously hard but he absolutely can't afford to lose a step and hope to keep playing at this level. As a Blazers fan you know the little crossover dance CJ does to get himself separation--he often barely gets those shots off as is, and his driving game (often set up by that) would suffer quite a bit if he loses a step too.

He might age well in the sense that he'll still be a useful shooter who can pour in like 17ppg for a long time, but the Sixers really don't need 2018 Eric Gordon. CJ needs to be current CJ for him to maintain his value, and I'd start to get nervous he'll still there in another year or two.
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Re: Ben Simmons trades go here (and here only) 

Post#22 » by Toine85 » Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:26 pm

Image

Sixers trade: Ben Simmons, Matisse Thybulle
Sixers get: Pascal Siakam, Trey Burke, Yuta Watanbe

WHY FOR SIXERS? Relationship with Simmons seems unsalvageable. In return, they get Pascal Siakam who would be able to team up with his fellow Cameroonian in Embiid. They would form one of the scariest frontcourts in the NBA.

------------------------------------------------------------------

Mavericks trade: Dwight Powell, Josh Green, Trey Burke
Mavericks get: Goran Dragic

WHY FOR MAVS? Team the Slovenians up! Dragic and Doncic have been clamoring for this during the offseason. Making it happen!

------------------------------------------------------------------

Raptors trade: Pascal Siakam, Goran Dragic, Yuta Watanabe
Raptors get: Ben Simmons, Matisse Thybulle, Josh Green, Dwight Powell

WHY FOR THE RAPS? Siakam seems to have issues with Nick Nurse recently and Dragic doesn't want to be in Toronto. Flip them for a perennial DPOY type player in Simmons as well as two nice prospects in Matisse Thybulle and Josh Green (creating the Australian triple threat right here!) Lastly, they bring Dwight Powell back to his hometown.


Thoughts?
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Re: Ben Simmons trades go here (and here only) 

Post#23 » by Texas Chuck » Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:27 pm

I don't have Siakam more valuable than Simmons so that deals falls apart for me there. Feels like Toronto gets far too good of a deal.
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Re: Ben Simmons trades go here (and here only) 

Post#24 » by Ballerhogger » Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:34 pm

Toine85 wrote:Image

Sixers trade: Ben Simmons, Matisse Thybulle
Sixers get: Pascal Siakam, Trey Burke, Yuta Watanbe

WHY FOR SIXERS? Relationship with Simmons seems unsalvageable. In return, they get Pascal Siakam who would be able to team up with his fellow Cameroonian in Embiid. They would form one of the scariest frontcourts in the NBA.

------------------------------------------------------------------

Mavericks trade: Dwight Powell, Josh Green, Trey Burke
Mavericks get: Goran Dragic

WHY FOR MAVS? Team the Slovenians up! Dragic and Doncic have been clamoring for this during the offseason. Making it happen!

------------------------------------------------------------------

Raptors trade: Pascal Siakam, Goran Dragic, Yuta Watanabe
Raptors get: Ben Simmons, Matisse Thybulle, Josh Green, Dwight Powell

WHY FOR THE RAPS? Siakam seems to have issues with Nick Nurse recently and Dragic doesn't want to be in Toronto. Flip them for a perennial DPOY type player in Simmons as well as two nice prospects in Matisse Thybulle and Josh Green (creating the Australian triple threat right here!) Lastly, they bring Dwight Powell back to his hometown.


Thoughts?

This doesnt help them scoring and how will joel and sikkam be on the court together? You lose all perimeter defense and dont improve in the scoring area.
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Re: Ben Simmons trades go here (and here only) 

Post#25 » by Bornstellar » Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:59 pm

HotelVitale wrote:
Bornstellar wrote:Simmons for McCollum makes so much sense and is fair value for both teams which is exactly why it probably won't happen :lol:

CJ is 30 next week while Ben just turned 25, he's had one season shooting at or above league average efficiency, he's an undersized bad defending combo guard who's not effective if his jumper isn't wet. I know that he's also a great shooter with some big skills at getting shots for himself, and he's worked hard to get more into the kore efficient 3s-and-lay-ups game--but the problem still remains that he's an aging shooter who doesn't really solve the Sixers' main problem (a closer who can score and draw fouls against great defenses) and he opens up new ones with his size, defense, and lack of true PG skills.

Not saying that means it's a joke of an offer but there are major reasons why it doens't make sense and doesn't seem like good value.


No offense taken. But, when you cant shoot a lick and havent worked on your game 1 iota in 5 years, your age is irrelevant. Simmons is not magically going to become a good shooter at some point because he's only 25.

Philly wants to win now and clearly lacks shooting/scoring/creation and a combo guard like CJ would alleviate all of that. They still have an elite defensive roster around him. Comparing players in a vacuum is pointless in the scenario given there are extenuating circumstances which will cause Simmons to be traded regardless. All things considered, CJ is probably the best fit and player they can get for him. All of these scenarios where Philly is getting multiple picks and assets plus young stars are not going to happen ever
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Re: Ben Simmons trades go here (and here only) 

Post#26 » by Texas Chuck » Tue Sep 14, 2021 4:04 pm

Bornstellar wrote: All of these scenarios where Philly is getting multiple picks and assets plus young stars are not going to happen ever


What scenarios are these? I'm not seeing those on this board. I have seen some media "reports" of Morey asking for stupid things, but I'm finding it difficult to take those at face value especially considering how contentious the situation has gotten and how many media members are willing to carry mail for teams/agents.

But I do think there is a meaningful gap we should all strive for between all the picks and young stars at one extreme and CJ straight up or worse on the other.
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Re: Ben Simmons trades go here (and here only) 

Post#27 » by Ballerhogger » Tue Sep 14, 2021 4:09 pm

Bornstellar wrote:
HotelVitale wrote:
Bornstellar wrote:Simmons for McCollum makes so much sense and is fair value for both teams which is exactly why it probably won't happen :lol:

CJ is 30 next week while Ben just turned 25, he's had one season shooting at or above league average efficiency, he's an undersized bad defending combo guard who's not effective if his jumper isn't wet. I know that he's also a great shooter with some big skills at getting shots for himself, and he's worked hard to get more into the kore efficient 3s-and-lay-ups game--but the problem still remains that he's an aging shooter who doesn't really solve the Sixers' main problem (a closer who can score and draw fouls against great defenses) and he opens up new ones with his size, defense, and lack of true PG skills.

Not saying that means it's a joke of an offer but there are major reasons why it doens't make sense and doesn't seem like good value.


No offense taken. But, when you cant shoot a lick and havent worked on your game 1 iota in 5 years, your age is irrelevant. Simmons is not magically going to become a good shooter at some point because he's only 25.

Philly wants to win now and clearly lacks shooting/scoring/creation and a combo guard like CJ would alleviate all of that. They still have an elite defensive roster around him. Comparing players in a vacuum is pointless in the scenario given there are extenuating circumstances which will cause Simmons to be traded regardless. All things considered, CJ is probably the best fit and player they can get for him. All of these scenarios where Philly is getting multiple picks and assets plus young stars are not going to happen ever

It just makes so much sense for each team idk why they haven’t done it other than Ben doesn’t want to play in Portland ?
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Re: Ben Simmons trades go here (and here only) 

Post#28 » by HotelVitale » Tue Sep 14, 2021 4:18 pm

Bornstellar wrote:
HotelVitale wrote:
Bornstellar wrote:Simmons for McCollum makes so much sense and is fair value for both teams which is exactly why it probably won't happen :lol:

CJ is 30 next week while Ben just turned 25, he's had one season shooting at or above league average efficiency, he's an undersized bad defending combo guard who's not effective if his jumper isn't wet. I know that he's also a great shooter with some big skills at getting shots for himself, and he's worked hard to get more into the kore efficient 3s-and-lay-ups game--but the problem still remains that he's an aging shooter who doesn't really solve the Sixers' main problem (a closer who can score and draw fouls against great defenses) and he opens up new ones with his size, defense, and lack of true PG skills.

Not saying that means it's a joke of an offer but there are major reasons why it doens't make sense and doesn't seem like good value.
No offense taken. But, when you cant shoot a lick and havent worked on your game 1 iota in 5 years, your age is irrelevant. Simmons is not magically going to become a good shooter at some point because he's only 25.


I didn't say anything about shooting, point is that barring health things Simmons has at least a full 7-8 years of his prime. All-stars who are just entering their prime basically never get traded and Simmons definitely qualifies as that, despite his obvious flaws. You can build again around them, you can f around and have a few off years and not lose him, you can trade them again for good value down the line, etc, while an aging player is someone you're making use of right now and are watching the clock to see when they're going to fall off. I know there are some exceptions of guys who are still playing strong at age 34+ but that's still very much the exception and we should still expect players to risk that fall-off period in their younger 30s.

I know I'm a Sixers fan here (though not a big Simmons fan), but this seems pretty obvious and doesn't feel like it needs to be argued. Right?
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Re: Ben Simmons trades go here (and here only) 

Post#29 » by DroseReturnChi » Tue Sep 14, 2021 4:38 pm

Ruzious wrote:I'll be honest (sorry) - I think CJ makes a lot of sense for Philly. He's what they need - a combo guard who's a great shooter and can create - and would blend well with Maxey and Green - who can both offset his weakness on D. Yes, Simmons is a better player, but Philly is not dealing from strength.


and its hard no. if morey liked cj, it would have been already done. cj is like last minute hes not dealing pre training camp.
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Re: Ben Simmons trades go here (and here only) 

Post#30 » by Ruzious » Tue Sep 14, 2021 4:48 pm

the_process wrote:
Mamba4Goat wrote:
Ruzious wrote:I'll be honest (sorry) - I think CJ makes a lot of sense for Philly. He's what they need - a combo guard who's a great shooter and can create - and would blend well with Maxey and Green - who can both offset his weakness on D. Yes, Simmons is a better player, but Philly is not dealing from strength.


My main issue with CJ is that it ties a significant chunk of the cap into two of the worst max level salaries (Harris/CJ). Being able to turn around and flip CJ if a Beal type becomes available is a lot harder too than either taking a pick/youngster heavy package and waiting for that star to become available.

On the flip side of that argument it could mean punting on a year of prime Embiid which isn’t ideal. And that is part of what makes the Simmons trade tough without a star being on the market.


Punting a year is far better than locking into CJ and Harris as your 2nd and 3rd best players.

Just trade Embiid now and start over if the only other option is CJ.

Offensively, he's not a bad #2 option - much like Middleton for Milwaukee.
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Re: Ben Simmons trades go here (and here only) 

Post#31 » by DroseReturnChi » Tue Sep 14, 2021 4:48 pm

HotelVitale wrote:
Bornstellar wrote:Simmons for McCollum makes so much sense and is fair value for both teams which is exactly why it probably won't happen :lol:

CJ is 30 next week while Ben just turned 25, he's had one season shooting at or above league average efficiency, he's an undersized bad defending combo guard who's not effective if his jumper isn't wet. I know that he's also a great shooter with some big skills at getting shots for himself, and he's worked hard to get more into the kore efficient 3s-and-lay-ups game--but the problem still remains that he's an aging shooter who doesn't really solve the Sixers' main problem (a closer who can score and draw fouls against great defenses) and he opens up new ones with his size, defense, and lack of true PG skills.

Not saying that means it's a joke of an offer but there are major reasons why it doens't make sense and doesn't seem like good value.


its pretty much joke of an offer. 0 all star, overpaid, has huge ego doesnt play defense with declining yrs.
cj fitting same age is terrible excuse lol why would anyone want someone intentionally older instead of a young fresh 6 pack guy?
thats like saying lebron is better than luka and no gm would trade 1 for 1. if they are they are not gms or should never be.
theres a reason why morey a top 5 gm wont touch this.

rule of thumb. always go for younger more individual achievement guy regardless of contention. talent beats everything you can later fit them together. at worst you trade him if he is a cancer like ben. morey feels the need to get compensation like harden type package given the opportunity cost he missed numerous mvps. whether simmons is worth or not doesnt matter if they want to win everything. embiid is horrible player with age but he is not 30s morey can afford to hold ben hostage for a yr or 2 and then get CJ as last resort.
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Re: Ben Simmons trades go here (and here only) 

Post#32 » by Roy The Natural » Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:33 pm

HotelVitale wrote:
Bornstellar wrote:
HotelVitale wrote:CJ is 30 next week while Ben just turned 25, he's had one season shooting at or above league average efficiency, he's an undersized bad defending combo guard who's not effective if his jumper isn't wet. I know that he's also a great shooter with some big skills at getting shots for himself, and he's worked hard to get more into the kore efficient 3s-and-lay-ups game--but the problem still remains that he's an aging shooter who doesn't really solve the Sixers' main problem (a closer who can score and draw fouls against great defenses) and he opens up new ones with his size, defense, and lack of true PG skills.

Not saying that means it's a joke of an offer but there are major reasons why it doens't make sense and doesn't seem like good value.
No offense taken. But, when you cant shoot a lick and havent worked on your game 1 iota in 5 years, your age is irrelevant. Simmons is not magically going to become a good shooter at some point because he's only 25.


I didn't say anything about shooting, point is that barring health things Simmons has at least a full 7-8 years of his prime. All-stars who are just entering their prime basically never get traded and Simmons definitely qualifies as that, despite his obvious flaws. You can build again around them, you can f around and have a few off years and not lose him, you can trade them again for good value down the line, etc, while an aging player is someone you're making use of right now and are watching the clock to see when they're going to fall off. I know there are some exceptions of guys who are still playing strong at age 34+ but that's still very much the exception and we should still expect players to risk that fall-off period in their younger 30s.

I know I'm a Sixers fan here (though not a big Simmons fan), but this seems pretty obvious and doesn't feel like it needs to be argued. Right?


I think the idea that Ben Simmons has 8 years of high level basketball is hugely far-fetched. Simmons doesn't seem like the type of guy who will age well into his 30s. His entire game is predicated on his athleticism. He's not even a good rim protector, his defense is almost entirely based on being ridiculously mobile at his size. He plain sucks as a ballhandler in the half-court. The minute his athleticism begins to decline, he will fall off rapidly. I see him having a Blake Griffin type descent.

The idea that 33-34 year old Ben Simmons will still be in his prime and a fringe all-star type impact player to me is a much lower than 50% chance. Chances are much greater that he's a bench player in his early 30s than the chances that he's what he is now.... IMHO.
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Re: Ben Simmons trades go here (and here only) 

Post#33 » by Ballerhogger » Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:49 pm

Ruzious wrote:
the_process wrote:
Mamba4Goat wrote:
My main issue with CJ is that it ties a significant chunk of the cap into two of the worst max level salaries (Harris/CJ). Being able to turn around and flip CJ if a Beal type becomes available is a lot harder too than either taking a pick/youngster heavy package and waiting for that star to become available.

On the flip side of that argument it could mean punting on a year of prime Embiid which isn’t ideal. And that is part of what makes the Simmons trade tough without a star being on the market.


Punting a year is far better than locking into CJ and Harris as your 2nd and 3rd best players.

Just trade Embiid now and start over if the only other option is CJ.

Offensively, he's not a bad #2 option - much like Middleton for Milwaukee.

correct plus punting is not option for 76ers if its let go of danny green , AD etc if punting is what they do
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Re: Ben Simmons trades go here (and here only) 

Post#34 » by Sportfan73 » Tue Sep 14, 2021 6:31 pm

HotelVitale wrote:
Bornstellar wrote:
HotelVitale wrote:CJ is 30 next week while Ben just turned 25, he's had one season shooting at or above league average efficiency, he's an undersized bad defending combo guard who's not effective if his jumper isn't wet. I know that he's also a great shooter with some big skills at getting shots for himself, and he's worked hard to get more into the kore efficient 3s-and-lay-ups game--but the problem still remains that he's an aging shooter who doesn't really solve the Sixers' main problem (a closer who can score and draw fouls against great defenses) and he opens up new ones with his size, defense, and lack of true PG skills.

Not saying that means it's a joke of an offer but there are major reasons why it doens't make sense and doesn't seem like good value.
No offense taken. But, when you cant shoot a lick and havent worked on your game 1 iota in 5 years, your age is irrelevant. Simmons is not magically going to become a good shooter at some point because he's only 25.


I didn't say anything about shooting, point is that barring health things Simmons has at least a full 7-8 years of his prime. All-stars who are just entering their prime basically never get traded and Simmons definitely qualifies as that, despite his obvious flaws. You can build again around them, you can f around and have a few off years and not lose him, you can trade them again for good value down the line, etc, while an aging player is someone you're making use of right now and are watching the clock to see when they're going to fall off. I know there are some exceptions of guys who are still playing strong at age 34+ but that's still very much the exception and we should still expect players to risk that fall-off period in their younger 30s.

I know I'm a Sixers fan here (though not a big Simmons fan), but this seems pretty obvious and doesn't feel like it needs to be argued. Right?

Yeah gimme Sexton and a couple firsts over CJ just purely off of how much you’d get out of them. Same goes for Brogdon(turning 29 this year) and FVV( turning 28 this year)
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Re: Ben Simmons trades go here (and here only) 

Post#35 » by LivingLegend » Tue Sep 14, 2021 7:01 pm

Heres my thing....when is this going to actually happen because its about 4 weeks until the season starts and training camp is beginning. I feel like the longer this gets dragged out the lower and lower the return for PHI will be. I dont think teams would want to be working on stuff like this 4 days before the season starts.
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Re: Ben Simmons trades go here (and here only) 

Post#36 » by Texas Chuck » Tue Sep 14, 2021 7:04 pm

I don't think its relevant the value of Simmons when he is 34 because he is 25 right now. But yes I would agree his value is most likely going to be less in 9 years than today. And I think its very reasonable to think he is still in his prime at the end of his current contract with 4 years remaining. Obviously guys get injured or mysteriously decline, but generally NBA players are at their very best between the ages of 27-31 so...
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Re: Ben Simmons trades go here (and here only) 

Post#37 » by toooskies » Tue Sep 14, 2021 7:45 pm

Morey wouldn't trade Simmons for CJ, he'd want to trade Tobias for CJ, or Simmons for Lillard. And that derails all the real discussions that Portland and Philly might have for Simmons until Portland decides to tear the whole thing down. That's despite where Simmons' current value is.

Unless Philly is getting a superstar back, they're trading for pieces that would be appealing for a team trading a superstar and not guys for themselves in 2021. It's far more likely that Morey trades for picks + expiring contracts than for McCollum or Sexton or Hield or Beasley or other guys who get Philly pretty competitive in 2021 but don't scare Brooklyn. Even more appealing than that are super-high-value young guys-- Halliburton, Mobley, etc.-- who are going to be ideal players to kick-start a rebuild for Portland or Washington or whoever ends up selling a superstar.

You kind of have to make a deal to Philly that makes their offer for a different superstar appealing.
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Re: Ben Simmons trades go here (and here only) 

Post#38 » by shrink » Tue Sep 14, 2021 8:22 pm

Windhorst last Saturday

Wolfson: Am I nuts to think that the most logical outcome is to just send Ben to Portland for CJ McCollum?

Windhorst: (long pause). You’re not nuts, but I’m not so sure Portland makes that trade. So, you can start with the bedrock question there is, “Does Portland want Ben Simmon?”

Wolfson: Hm. Okay. So I mean, Portland just runs this thing back through, pray that they make a run and that Damian Lillard doesn’t eventually ask out?

Windhorst: Well, I think that’s what Daryl is hoping for, that Dame does ask out. You know, Dame’s situation is interesting actually, because actually, I know he’s just starting a max contract but he’s actually extension-eligible again next summer, and so my guess is, sitting here in September of ‘21, is that that will become the next pinch point in that relationship, that he will see how this season plays out with the new coach.

Windhorst: But I’m not so sure that the Blazers, obviously they are a poor defensive team, so, again, you can get the white board out, and make a case that creating for a really good defensive player could help them a lot and change their upside, but I’m not so sure that that’s a guarantee that they want Ben Simmons. I think, again, if they are going to trade CJ McCollum, that if they come to the decision that CJ is going to be traded, they may be able to do something that makes more sense for what they got on their roster.


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Re: Ben Simmons trades go here (and here only) 

Post#39 » by the_process » Tue Sep 14, 2021 8:35 pm

Ballerhogger wrote:
Ruzious wrote:
the_process wrote:
Punting a year is far better than locking into CJ and Harris as your 2nd and 3rd best players.

Just trade Embiid now and start over if the only other option is CJ.

Offensively, he's not a bad #2 option - much like Middleton for Milwaukee.

correct plus punting is not option for 76ers if its let go of danny green , AD etc if punting is what they do


Punting is definitely an option. You just give heavy minutes to Maxey and Thybulle, and work Springer in to the rotation.
It is highly unlikely that the Sixers will agree with your Ben Simmons evaluation for the purposes of a trade.
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Re: Ben Simmons trades go here (and here only) 

Post#40 » by zimpy27 » Tue Sep 14, 2021 8:56 pm

Wall would be a nice add for sixers and Simmons would fit well with Green and Wood.

Obviously their is a chasm between Wall and Simmons but what picks fill that chasm?

4 FRP is my thought


I actually think this trade has legs because Wall can help sixers win now while also being a walking trade filler in combination with the picks they have for next offseason if Dame wants to shake loose
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