Hammering out this Philly/SAC deal for Ben Simmons.

[Ballerhogger]

I’d really like see hailburton make it to contending team he would be all star in my opinion

[kb02]

PHI out: Simmons, Harris, Curry, Milton, 2023 ATL/CHA SRP
PHI in: Haliburton, Barnes, Hield, Covington, Thompson (waived)

POR out: Covington
POR in: Curry, 2022 DET SRP, 2023 ATL/CHA SRP

SAC out: Haliburton, Hield, Barnes, Thompson, 2022 DET SRP
SAC in: Simmons, Harris, Milton

Keep Simmons.

if the sixers have early exit they will look at this as to why. They should try get good pg who can contribute instead wasting a year of Joel

Agree. Max pain for Simmons and Philly is this off-season. They’ll come to their senses after a wasted year of Embid’s prime.

[kb02]

I’d really like see hailburton make it to contending team he would be all star in my opinion

Halliburton will be the star of the Kings next contending team.

[OGSactownballer]

Halliburton is not being moved so shouldn’t even be in the discussion.

It has to be Fox and especially if we are adding taking back Harris. We cannot have three max salaries here without already knowing the performance level being all star (which Harris is not) and expect things to work.

[ProcessDoctor]

PHI out: Simmons, Harris, Curry, Milton, 2023 ATL/CHA SRP
PHI in: Haliburton, Barnes, Hield, Covington, Thompson (waived)

POR out: Covington
POR in: Curry, 2022 DET SRP, 2023 ATL/CHA SRP

SAC out: Haliburton, Hield, Barnes, Thompson, 2022 DET SRP
SAC in: Simmons, Harris, Milton

Keep Simmons.

I'll text Daryl. Thanks for relaying Sacramento's FO's thoughts.

[kb02]

PHI out: Simmons, Harris, Curry, Milton, 2023 ATL/CHA SRP
PHI in: Haliburton, Barnes, Hield, Covington, Thompson (waived)

POR out: Covington
POR in: Curry, 2022 DET SRP, 2023 ATL/CHA SRP

SAC out: Haliburton, Hield, Barnes, Thompson, 2022 DET SRP
SAC in: Simmons, Harris, Milton

Keep Simmons.

I'll text Daryl. Thanks for relaying Sacramento's FO's thoughts.

Thanks for relaying Morey’s trade proposals.

[kuclas]

So to clarify:

1. A non-playing (with no ETA of return) Simmons with mental health issues with a max contract is a significantly negative contract. Probably the most negative contract in the NBA.

2. A playing and mentally healthy Simmons changes that equation significantly, but he is still limited offensively on a Max contract.

3. In order to move such a negative contract, Morey will need to find a very stupid or desperate GM who will pay top dollar for the Simmons contract.

4. After finding said stupid or desperate GM, there will need to be a match of players and contracts.

Other than that, great.

I understand you believe Simmons to be the worst contract in the league. Please understand why I believe that makes you not worth debating with.

Just to be clear, I consistently say "a non-playing" Simmons has the worst contract in the league. I am always careful to make a distinction between a non-playing and a playing Simmons contract.

A playing and mentally healthy Simmons is quite a good player, with certain offensive limitations on a max contract. Still, his contract has significant value if mentally healthy and playing.

First of all John wall is the worst contract in the league playing or non paying.

As for Simmons being the worst contract. If Simmons was the worst even not playing. Why are other GM inquiring about him? It’s no secret at least 4-5 teams have seriously inquired about Simmons. So that means his contract is NOT EVEN CLOSe to be the worst contract. And if other GM were inquiring about him even with 120 million close to guarantee left. They aren’t concern about his contact. Period. Everyone knows he’s faking it. Everyone. They just playing the game since he involve the mental clause. That mental clause excuse can only go on for so long. If klutch and Simmons were serious about mental illness. They would say Simmons not ready to play. Period. But they added he’s not ready to play plus wants to be traded

[GutUNC]

Keep Simmons.

if the sixers have early exit they will look at this as to why. They should try get good pg who can contribute instead wasting a year of Joel

Agree. Max pain for Simmons and Philly is this off-season. They’ll come to their senses after a wasted year of Embid’s prime.

Don't know why this keeps getting repeated when the trade's that are rumored to be available don't get the Sixers anywhere close to contender status. It's just a straw man argument. I've read the Kings board too - he's not seen as a potential missing piece there any more then he is here.

[OGSactownballer]

I understand you believe Simmons to be the worst contract in the league. Please understand why I believe that makes you not worth debating with.

Just to be clear, I consistently say "a non-playing" Simmons has the worst contract in the league. I am always careful to make a distinction between a non-playing and a playing Simmons contract.

A playing and mentally healthy Simmons is quite a good player, with certain offensive limitations on a max contract. Still, his contract has significant value if mentally healthy and playing.

First of all John wall is the worst contract in the league playing or non paying.

As for Simmons being the worst contract. If Simmons was the worst even not playing. Why are other GM inquiring about him? It’s no secret at least 4-5 teams have seriously inquired about Simmons. So that means his contract is NOT EVEN CLOSe to be the worst contract. And if other GM were inquiring about him even with 120 million close to guarantee left. They aren’t concern about his contact. Period. Everyone knows he’s faking it. Everyone. They just playing the game since he involve the mental clause. That mental clause excuse can only go on for so long. If klutch and Simmons were serious about mental illness. They would say Simmons not ready to play. Period. But they added he’s not ready to play plus wants to be traded

I don’t think anyone is seriously fooled or denying this. And I am just as sure this is why Morey won’t back down in his outrageous asks.

That being said we have to also live in the real world and there is risk attached - especially for a team like Sac who doesn’t currently have the best rep with players around the league. Simmons might get here and decide that it wasn’t “any” California team he wanted to go to but one of the other three. That’s a realistic factor. So is the fact that he DID show some very bad judgement at the worst possible pressure time last year and that cannot just be entirely ignored. And then you have the shooting factor. And realistically from a basketball perspective if I’m a coach I sit down with the kid and have a serious conversation about shifting full time to the front court to maximize his strengths and hide his deficiencies until he can work them through ir just cover him in my schemes.

lol this is real time risk taking him on. And yes of course there is interest and GM’s who will swing hard and hope for a home run.

But then you are also talking about adding Harris and no matter how you look at it he is an albatross if a contract for his performance and player level. He is paid almost double what he should be and that means you are having to be constantly working to find cheap options to bring in for roster improvement. And we don’t have as good an option for that in Sac. You don’t get solid vet ring chasers or young guys looking to up their stock for contract here like you do in the major markets. So that money hurts us a LOT more.

[AaronB]

I understand you believe Simmons to be the worst contract in the league. Please understand why I believe that makes you not worth debating with.

Just to be clear, I consistently say "a non-playing" Simmons has the worst contract in the league. I am always careful to make a distinction between a non-playing and a playing Simmons contract.

A playing and mentally healthy Simmons is quite a good player, with certain offensive limitations on a max contract. Still, his contract has significant value if mentally healthy and playing.

First of all John wall is the worst contract in the league playing or non paying.

As for Simmons being the worst contract. If Simmons was the worst even not playing. Why are other GM inquiring about him? It’s no secret at least 4-5 teams have seriously inquired about Simmons. So that means his contract is NOT EVEN CLOSe to be the worst contract. And if other GM were inquiring about him even with 120 million close to guarantee left. They aren’t concern about his contact. Period. Everyone knows he’s faking it. Everyone. They just playing the game since he involve the mental clause. That mental clause excuse can only go on for so long. If klutch and Simmons were serious about mental illness. They would say Simmons not ready to play. Period. But they added he’s not ready to play plus wants to be traded

No, John Wall is at least willing to try to earn his paycheck. He is a 5 time all star and averaged 20PPG last year. Houston just does not want him to try to earn his paycheck. This is the exact opposite situation of Simmons.

Of course other teams have contacted the 6ers. I am sure that the Magic have called and offered Harris + filler (negative contract). That still does not make a non-playing Simmons anything the more than the worst contract in the NBA.

Frankly, if Simmons is lying, this makes his value even less. To fake mental illness when there is none does not redeem 1 penny of Simmons's contract value. People can recover from mental illness, liars never recover.

Again, all this changes if Simmons recovers and starts playing again. Until then, Morey will need to find an idiot GM if he insists on value. That idiot GM will need to have the right mix of contracts also.

[SNPA]

Just to be clear, I consistently say "a non-playing" Simmons has the worst contract in the league. I am always careful to make a distinction between a non-playing and a playing Simmons contract.

A playing and mentally healthy Simmons is quite a good player, with certain offensive limitations on a max contract. Still, his contract has significant value if mentally healthy and playing.

First of all John wall is the worst contract in the league playing or non paying.

As for Simmons being the worst contract. If Simmons was the worst even not playing. Why are other GM inquiring about him? It’s no secret at least 4-5 teams have seriously inquired about Simmons. So that means his contract is NOT EVEN CLOSe to be the worst contract. And if other GM were inquiring about him even with 120 million close to guarantee left. They aren’t concern about his contact. Period. Everyone knows he’s faking it. Everyone. They just playing the game since he involve the mental clause. That mental clause excuse can only go on for so long. If klutch and Simmons were serious about mental illness. They would say Simmons not ready to play. Period. But they added he’s not ready to play plus wants to be traded

No, John Wall is at least willing to try to earn his paycheck. He is a 5 time all star and averaged 20PPG last year. Houston just does not want him to try to earn his paycheck. This is the exact opposite situation of Simmons.

Of course other teams have contacted the 6ers. I am sure that the Magic have called and offered Harris + filler (negative contract). That still does not make a non-playing Simmons anything the more than the worst contract in the NBA.

Frankly, if Simmons is lying, this makes his value even less. To fake mental illness when there is none does not redeem 1 penny of Simmons's contract value. People can recover from mental illness, liars never recover.

Again, all this changes if Simmons recovers and starts playing again. Until then, Morey will need to find an idiot GM if he insists on value. That idiot GM will need to have the right mix of contracts also.

I don’t think this is true in this context. I bet most GM’s looking at trading for him are hoping the mental stuff a negotiation tactic designed to keep him getting paid and put pressure on Morey. Lying is absolutely part of NBA trade negotiations, it’s standard. No one is being completely honest.

[kuclas]

Just to be clear, I consistently say "a non-playing" Simmons has the worst contract in the league. I am always careful to make a distinction between a non-playing and a playing Simmons contract.

A playing and mentally healthy Simmons is quite a good player, with certain offensive limitations on a max contract. Still, his contract has significant value if mentally healthy and playing.

First of all John wall is the worst contract in the league playing or non paying.

As for Simmons being the worst contract. If Simmons was the worst even not playing. Why are other GM inquiring about him? It’s no secret at least 4-5 teams have seriously inquired about Simmons. So that means his contract is NOT EVEN CLOSe to be the worst contract. And if other GM were inquiring about him even with 120 million close to guarantee left. They aren’t concern about his contact. Period. Everyone knows he’s faking it. Everyone. They just playing the game since he involve the mental clause. That mental clause excuse can only go on for so long. If klutch and Simmons were serious about mental illness. They would say Simmons not ready to play. Period. But they added he’s not ready to play plus wants to be traded

No, John Wall is at least willing to try to earn his paycheck. He is a 5 time all star and averaged 20PPG last year. Houston just does not want him to try to earn his paycheck. This is the exact opposite situation of Simmons.

Of course other teams have contacted the 6ers. I am sure that the Magic have called and offered Harris + filler (negative contract). That still does not make a non-playing Simmons anything the more than the worst contract in the NBA.

Frankly, if Simmons is lying, this makes his value even less. To fake mental illness when there is none does not redeem 1 penny of Simmons's contract value. People can recover from mental illness, liars never recover.

Again, all this changes if Simmons recovers and starts playing again. Until then, Morey will need to find an idiot GM if he insists on value. That idiot GM will need to have the right mix of contracts also.

Simmons can average 20 ppg a game in his sleep on a tanking team if he wanted to. Wall is the worst contract cause Houston has no takers for wall. That’s as plain as daylight. Wall scores 20 on 19 shots a game. And Houston still loses. That tells you things. He’s just not good as a 30 min a game point guard. Anymore. Teams don’t want wall at 30 min a game for 90 plus million.

No. Competing teams have called about Simmons. They want Simmons. They are offering players. Just players sixers don’t feel will improve them. So his salary is not a detriment. John wall salary is a detriment. Cause he’s got too many injuries. He’s just not the player he once was.

Look we can go on and on. Simmons can play. He just doesn’t want to play for sixers. But he’s on long term contract. He has no leverage. His last leverage (mental Illness won’t go on forever cause sixers eventually will claim disability if Simmons wants to continue this)

[HotelVitale]

Keep Simmons.

if the sixers have early exit they will look at this as to why. They should try get good pg who can contribute instead wasting a year of Joel

Agree. Max pain for Simmons and Philly is this off-season. They’ll come to their senses after a wasted year of Embid’s prime.

Guys OF COURSE the Sixers are aware of Embiid’a timeline. Of course. Of course. Please stop any thought that doesn’t assume that their #1 priority isn’t trying to win a title around Embiid.

The Sixers would probably seriously consider this deal because it still keeps options open (and Halliburton still has great trade value while on his rookie deal), but you have to remember that the Sixers aren’t particularly close to being a contender. With Simmons last year they were well short of that, so making a lateral move just to do it is also likely just ‘wasting Embiid’s prime’—except you’re wasting like 3 years of it instead of just the next 5 months. That always been the calculation here, gotta approach it like that.

[LightTheBeam]

if the sixers have early exit they will look at this as to why. They should try get good pg who can contribute instead wasting a year of Joel

Agree. Max pain for Simmons and Philly is this off-season. They’ll come to their senses after a wasted year of Embid’s prime.

Guys OF COURSE the Sixers are aware of Embiid’a timeline. Of course. Of course. Please stop any thought that doesn’t assume that their #1 priority isn’t trying to win a title around Embiid.

The Sixers would probably seriously consider this deal because it still keeps options open (and Halliburton still has great trade value while on his rookie deal), but you have to remember that the Sixers aren’t particularly close to being a contender. With Simmons last year they were well short of that, so making a lateral move just to do it is also likely just ‘wasting Embiid’s prime’—except you’re wasting like 3 years of it instead of just the next 5 months. That always been the calculation here, gotta approach it like that.

I'm just trying to understand the thought process.

Not a contender with Simmons
Simmons isn't fetching Lillard/Beal
Simmons won't be coming back to play

So what is the plan?

I think we saw last year that injuries are real, Id much rather put Embid in a position to capitalize should something happen in Brooklyn.

I guess the best chance to turn into a "true" contender is to use Simmons to dump Harris, and then pray Morey can convince Harden to come to town. Not sure they win a ship, but Harden/Embid + weakening Brooklyn definitely gets you in the conversation.

[HotelVitale]

Agree. Max pain for Simmons and Philly is this off-season. They’ll come to their senses after a wasted year of Embid’s prime.

Guys OF COURSE the Sixers are aware of Embiid’a timeline. Of course. Of course. Please stop any thought that doesn’t assume that their #1 priority isn’t trying to win a title around Embiid.

The Sixers would probably seriously consider this deal because it still keeps options open (and Halliburton still has great trade value while on his rookie deal), but you have to remember that the Sixers aren’t particularly close to being a contender. With Simmons last year they were well short of that, so making a lateral move just to do it is also likely just ‘wasting Embiid’s prime’—except you’re wasting like 3 years of it instead of just the next 5 months. That always been the calculation here, gotta approach it like that.

I'm just trying to understand the thought process.

Not a contender with Simmons
Simmons isn't fetching Lillard/Beal
Simmons won't be coming back to play

So what is the plan?

I think we saw last year that injuries are real, Id much rather put Embid in a position to capitalize should something happen in Brooklyn.

I guess the best chance to turn into a "true" contender is to use Simmons to dump Harris, and then pray Morey can convince Harden to come to town. Not sure they win a ship, but Harden/Embid + weakening Brooklyn definitely gets you in the conversation.

As has been reported since July over and over again, Morey’s plan is and continues to be to offer a package of Simmons plus assets like Maxey, Thybulle, picks, and swaps for whatever lead perimeter creator star becomes available. That’s it, nothing more complicated or controversial.

Is it a perfect plan? No, it seems unlikely to work to me and there are multiple good arguments that it’s not the best move here. But its honestly been depressing to see people wasting hundreds and hundreds of posts here ignoring or intentionally misunderstanding it to repeat trash talking points about Morey being insane, delusional, etc. We have probably thousands of posts (including lots of pretty good posters) pretending that Morey has some other plan that’s ridiculous or flat out idiotic, not sure why folks can’t just let this boring plan he’s committed to play out, and check back whenever something changes.

[Nate the Great]

It has basically come down to three possibilities at this point.

1. It’s the fault of the Sixers. Either his fit with the team, or how he’s treated by ownership, management, his teammates and/or the fans. If he was traded, his new team could see the best of Simmons. Ironically, it’s in the Sixers’ best interests if teams see this as the case, but nonetheless there’s a chance that his new team does the same thing that set him off.
2. It’s Simmons’ fault. He’s a manipulator, pretending to have mental health issues so he can get his way. Any team that traded for him would have to constantly walk on eggshells, hoping he didn’t do the same to them. They could never depend on him, especially in crucial situations. Sixers fans have tried to convince us that this is the inevitable truth, somehow thinking this would make teams want him.
3. It’s no one’s fault, he legitimately has mental health issues. In that case, who knows when he plays. There’s a chance he just retires before playing again.

In all three cases, Simmons is damaged and unpredictable, and we already know he’s limited on offense and showed his greatest weaknesses in the postseason. Why Morey still thinks he’s holding a trump card that will yield him a superstar, I don’t know.

[AaronB]

Guys OF COURSE the Sixers are aware of Embiid’a timeline. Of course. Of course. Please stop any thought that doesn’t assume that their #1 priority isn’t trying to win a title around Embiid.

The Sixers would probably seriously consider this deal because it still keeps options open (and Halliburton still has great trade value while on his rookie deal), but you have to remember that the Sixers aren’t particularly close to being a contender. With Simmons last year they were well short of that, so making a lateral move just to do it is also likely just ‘wasting Embiid’s prime’—except you’re wasting like 3 years of it instead of just the next 5 months. That always been the calculation here, gotta approach it like that.

I'm just trying to understand the thought process.

Not a contender with Simmons
Simmons isn't fetching Lillard/Beal
Simmons won't be coming back to play

So what is the plan?

I think we saw last year that injuries are real, Id much rather put Embid in a position to capitalize should something happen in Brooklyn.

I guess the best chance to turn into a "true" contender is to use Simmons to dump Harris, and then pray Morey can convince Harden to come to town. Not sure they win a ship, but Harden/Embid + weakening Brooklyn definitely gets you in the conversation.

As has been reported since July over and over again, Morey’s plan is and continues to be to offer a package of Simmons plus assets like Maxey, Thybulle, picks, and swaps for whatever lead perimeter creator star becomes available. That’s it, nothing more complicated or controversial.

Is it a perfect plan? No, it seems unlikely to work to me and there are multiple good arguments that it’s not the best move here. But its honestly been depressing to see people wasting hundreds and hundreds of posts here ignoring or intentionally misunderstanding it to repeat trash talking points about Morey being insane, delusional, etc. We have probably thousands of posts (including lots of pretty good posters) pretending that Morey has some other plan that’s ridiculous or flat out idiotic, not sure why folks can’t just let this boring plan he’s committed to play out, and check back whenever something changes.

My problem with Morey is that, while a really good GM, he has a poor understanding of game theory.

It is almost a classic prisoner's dilemma. The very best move by Morey in game theory is to fall on his sword and start paying Simmons. Worst case things stay the same. The best case improves the outcome for all.

Game theory does not account for moral consternation, but Morey should just consider the choices best for his business.

[Sactowndog]

If i'm guessing, it ends up Simmons/Joe/Reed for Hali/Barnes/TT/1st

I think Philly tries to bring a third team in to turn Danny Green & TT (& assets?) into a 20M player that provides more on the court.

I would consider that another disaster in the making for the Kings. Simmons has value if you surround him with shooters. This trade would leave the Kings with sub par shooting, likely still a lottery team and without our pick.

[AaronB]

First of all John wall is the worst contract in the league playing or non paying.

As for Simmons being the worst contract. If Simmons was the worst even not playing. Why are other GM inquiring about him? It’s no secret at least 4-5 teams have seriously inquired about Simmons. So that means his contract is NOT EVEN CLOSe to be the worst contract. And if other GM were inquiring about him even with 120 million close to guarantee left. They aren’t concern about his contact. Period. Everyone knows he’s faking it. Everyone. They just playing the game since he involve the mental clause. That mental clause excuse can only go on for so long. If klutch and Simmons were serious about mental illness. They would say Simmons not ready to play. Period. But they added he’s not ready to play plus wants to be traded

No, John Wall is at least willing to try to earn his paycheck. He is a 5 time all star and averaged 20PPG last year. Houston just does not want him to try to earn his paycheck. This is the exact opposite situation of Simmons.

Of course other teams have contacted the 6ers. I am sure that the Magic have called and offered Harris + filler (negative contract). That still does not make a non-playing Simmons anything the more than the worst contract in the NBA.

Frankly, if Simmons is lying, this makes his value even less. To fake mental illness when there is none does not redeem 1 penny of Simmons's contract value. People can recover from mental illness, liars never recover.

Again, all this changes if Simmons recovers and starts playing again. Until then, Morey will need to find an idiot GM if he insists on value. That idiot GM will need to have the right mix of contracts also.

Simmons can average 20 ppg a game in his sleep on a tanking team if he wanted to. Wall is the worst contract cause Houston has no takers for wall. That’s as plain as daylight. Wall scores 20 on 19 shots a game. And Houston still loses. That tells you things. He’s just not good as a 30 min a game point guard. Anymore. Teams don’t want wall at 30 min a game for 90 plus million.

No. Competing teams have called about Simmons. They want Simmons. They are offering players. Just players sixers don’t feel will improve them. So his salary is not a detriment. John wall salary is a detriment. Cause he’s got too many injuries. He’s just not the player he once was.

Look we can go on and on. Simmons can play. He just doesn’t want to play for sixers. But he’s on long term contract. He has no leverage. His last leverage (mental Illness won’t go on forever cause sixers eventually will claim disability if Simmons wants to continue this)

You still do not understand the basic principles of the CBA.

The 6ers can only claim permanent disability if they have medical personnel agree with the claim that Simmons's medical issues are a permanent disability. Good luck with that claim. This is not like Bosh with blood clot issues.

As long as this continues, Simmons contract will continue to hit the 76er salary cap. Fines will never alter that.

[PhillyFan11]

Fox, Hield, Bagley, FRP for Simmons and Harris works and I think would really benefit Sacremento…just a matter of what Philly can flip Fox, Bagley and the FRP to a 3rd team for…
Beal, Ingram, and Brown are the top targets…just not sure how realistic that is without the Sixers adding Maxey. Fox, Bagley, Jaden Springer, Kings and Sixers ‘22 FRP get any of those guys? Who’s best case scenario if not?

This also works, anybody think the Clippers would do this?

Sixers out: Simmons, Harris, Jaden Springer, ‘22 FRP
Sixers in: Paul George, Marcus Morris, and Hield

Kings out: Fox, Hield, Bagley, ‘22 top 5 protected FRP
Sac
Kings in: Simmons and Harris

Clippers out: George and Morris
Clippers in: Fox, Bagley, Springer, Kings top 5 protected ‘22 FRP, Sixers ‘22 FRP

Sixers- Maxey, Curry, George, Morris, Embiid
Kings- Simmons, Haliburton, Barnes, Harris, Holmes
Clippers save $25M and get much younger while still having Kawhi and Fox.