Hammering out this Philly/SAC deal for Ben Simmons.

[GutUNC]

Just to be clear, I consistently say "a non-playing" Simmons has the worst contract in the league. I am always careful to make a distinction between a non-playing and a playing Simmons contract.

A playing and mentally healthy Simmons is quite a good player, with certain offensive limitations on a max contract. Still, his contract has significant value if mentally healthy and playing.

First of all John wall is the worst contract in the league playing or non paying.

As for Simmons being the worst contract. If Simmons was the worst even not playing. Why are other GM inquiring about him? It’s no secret at least 4-5 teams have seriously inquired about Simmons. So that means his contract is NOT EVEN CLOSe to be the worst contract. And if other GM were inquiring about him even with 120 million close to guarantee left. They aren’t concern about his contact. Period. Everyone knows he’s faking it. Everyone. They just playing the game since he involve the mental clause. That mental clause excuse can only go on for so long. If klutch and Simmons were serious about mental illness. They would say Simmons not ready to play. Period. But they added he’s not ready to play plus wants to be traded

No, John Wall is at least willing to try to earn his paycheck. He is a 5 time all star and averaged 20PPG last year. Houston just does not want him to try to earn his paycheck. This is the exact opposite situation of Simmons.

Of course other teams have contacted the 6ers. I am sure that the Magic have called and offered Harris + filler (negative contract). That still does not make a non-playing Simmons anything the more than the worst contract in the NBA.

Frankly, if Simmons is lying, this makes his value even less. To fake mental illness when there is none does not redeem 1 penny of Simmons's contract value. People can recover from mental illness, liars never recover.

Again, all this changes if Simmons recovers and starts playing again. Until then, Morey will need to find an idiot GM if he insists on value. That idiot GM will need to have the right mix of contracts also.

So, in summation, "Heads I win, tails you lose".

[GutUNC]

I'm just trying to understand the thought process.

Not a contender with Simmons
Simmons isn't fetching Lillard/Beal
Simmons won't be coming back to play

So what is the plan?

I think we saw last year that injuries are real, Id much rather put Embid in a position to capitalize should something happen in Brooklyn.

I guess the best chance to turn into a "true" contender is to use Simmons to dump Harris, and then pray Morey can convince Harden to come to town. Not sure they win a ship, but Harden/Embid + weakening Brooklyn definitely gets you in the conversation.

As has been reported since July over and over again, Morey’s plan is and continues to be to offer a package of Simmons plus assets like Maxey, Thybulle, picks, and swaps for whatever lead perimeter creator star becomes available. That’s it, nothing more complicated or controversial.

Is it a perfect plan? No, it seems unlikely to work to me and there are multiple good arguments that it’s not the best move here. But its honestly been depressing to see people wasting hundreds and hundreds of posts here ignoring or intentionally misunderstanding it to repeat trash talking points about Morey being insane, delusional, etc. We have probably thousands of posts (including lots of pretty good posters) pretending that Morey has some other plan that’s ridiculous or flat out idiotic, not sure why folks can’t just let this boring plan he’s committed to play out, and check back whenever something changes.

My problem with Morey is that, while a really good GM, he has a poor understanding of game theory.

It is almost a classic prisoner's dilemma. The very best move by Morey in game theory is to fall on his sword and start paying Simmons. Worst case things stay the same. The best case improves the outcome for all.

Game theory does not account for moral consternation, but Morey should just consider the choices best for his business.

This theory was silly when you concocted it, and even worse after Shams reported they aren't fining him any more.

Simmons has yet to play this season after informing his 76ers organization, coaches and teammates that he is not mentally ready to play and needs time to work on himself. The 76ers have not been fining Simmons, as he fulfills team obligations such as training sessions and team meetings as well as continuing to meet with mental health specialists, sources said. And yet, the 76ers don’t appear any closer to a trade than they were in the offseason and prior to training camp.

[GutUNC]

Fox, Hield, Bagley, FRP for Simmons and Harris works and I think would really benefit Sacremento…just a matter of what Philly can flip Fox, Bagley and the FRP to a 3rd team for…
Beal, Ingram, and Brown are the top targets…just not sure how realistic that is without the Sixers adding Maxey. Fox, Bagley, Jaden Springer, Kings and Sixers ‘22 FRP get any of those guys? Who’s best case scenario if not?

This also works, anybody think the Clippers would do this?

Sixers out: Simmons, Harris, Jaden Springer, ‘22 FRP
Sixers in: Paul George, Marcus Morris, and Hield

Kings out: Fox, Hield, Bagley, ‘22 top 5 protected FRP
Sac
Kings in: Simmons and Harris

Clippers out: George and Morris
Clippers in: Fox, Bagley, Springer, Kings top 5 protected ‘22 FRP, Sixers ‘22 FRP

Sixers- Maxey, Curry, George, Morris, Embiid
Kings- Simmons, Haliburton, Barnes, Harris, Holmes
Clippers save $25M and get much younger while still having Kawhi and Fox.

Paul George to the Sixers isn't happening until/unless Doc is fired.

Which...if that's your plan...I'm not getting in your way. Just don't see that as a realistic scenario and it's 100% necessary at the jump.

[PhillyFan11]

Fox, Hield, Bagley, FRP for Simmons and Harris works and I think would really benefit Sacremento…just a matter of what Philly can flip Fox, Bagley and the FRP to a 3rd team for…
Beal, Ingram, and Brown are the top targets…just not sure how realistic that is without the Sixers adding Maxey. Fox, Bagley, Jaden Springer, Kings and Sixers ‘22 FRP get any of those guys? Who’s best case scenario if not?

This also works, anybody think the Clippers would do this?

Sixers out: Simmons, Harris, Jaden Springer, ‘22 FRP
Sixers in: Paul George, Marcus Morris, and Hield

Kings out: Fox, Hield, Bagley, ‘22 top 5 protected FRP
Sac
Kings in: Simmons and Harris

Clippers out: George and Morris
Clippers in: Fox, Bagley, Springer, Kings top 5 protected ‘22 FRP, Sixers ‘22 FRP

Sixers- Maxey, Curry, George, Morris, Embiid
Kings- Simmons, Haliburton, Barnes, Harris, Holmes
Clippers save $25M and get much younger while still having Kawhi and Fox.

Paul George to the Sixers isn't happening until/unless Doc is fired.

Which...if that's your plan...I'm not getting in your way. Just don't see that as a realistic scenario and it's 100% necessary at the jump.

Yeah someone else pointed that out in another tread. That drama completely slipped my mind

[AaronB]

As has been reported since July over and over again, Morey’s plan is and continues to be to offer a package of Simmons plus assets like Maxey, Thybulle, picks, and swaps for whatever lead perimeter creator star becomes available. That’s it, nothing more complicated or controversial.

Is it a perfect plan? No, it seems unlikely to work to me and there are multiple good arguments that it’s not the best move here. But its honestly been depressing to see people wasting hundreds and hundreds of posts here ignoring or intentionally misunderstanding it to repeat trash talking points about Morey being insane, delusional, etc. We have probably thousands of posts (including lots of pretty good posters) pretending that Morey has some other plan that’s ridiculous or flat out idiotic, not sure why folks can’t just let this boring plan he’s committed to play out, and check back whenever something changes.

My problem with Morey is that, while a really good GM, he has a poor understanding of game theory.

It is almost a classic prisoner's dilemma. The very best move by Morey in game theory is to fall on his sword and start paying Simmons. Worst case things stay the same. The best case improves the outcome for all.

Game theory does not account for moral consternation, but Morey should just consider the choices best for his business.

This theory was silly when you concocted it, and even worse after Shams reported they aren't fining him any more.

Simmons has yet to play this season after informing his 76ers organization, coaches and teammates that he is not mentally ready to play and needs time to work on himself. The 76ers have not been fining Simmons, as he fulfills team obligations such as training sessions and team meetings as well as continuing to meet with mental health specialists, sources said. And yet, the 76ers don’t appear any closer to a trade than they were in the offseason and prior to training camp.

Excellent, I told you this was the best plan.

And you had the nerve to call it a "silly plan".

The 6ers can say all they want to save face, this was the right thing to do.

The 76ers finally understand game theory.

It

[AaronB]

As has been reported since July over and over again, Morey’s plan is and continues to be to offer a package of Simmons plus assets like Maxey, Thybulle, picks, and swaps for whatever lead perimeter creator star becomes available. That’s it, nothing more complicated or controversial.

Is it a perfect plan? No, it seems unlikely to work to me and there are multiple good arguments that it’s not the best move here. But its honestly been depressing to see people wasting hundreds and hundreds of posts here ignoring or intentionally misunderstanding it to repeat trash talking points about Morey being insane, delusional, etc. We have probably thousands of posts (including lots of pretty good posters) pretending that Morey has some other plan that’s ridiculous or flat out idiotic, not sure why folks can’t just let this boring plan he’s committed to play out, and check back whenever something changes.

My problem with Morey is that, while a really good GM, he has a poor understanding of game theory.

It is almost a classic prisoner's dilemma. The very best move by Morey in game theory is to fall on his sword and start paying Simmons. Worst case things stay the same. The best case improves the outcome for all.

Game theory does not account for moral consternation, but Morey should just consider the choices best for his business.

This theory was silly when you concocted it, and even worse after Shams reported they aren't fining him any more.

Simmons has yet to play this season after informing his 76ers organization, coaches and teammates that he is not mentally ready to play and needs time to work on himself. The 76ers have not been fining Simmons, as he fulfills team obligations such as training sessions and team meetings as well as continuing to meet with mental health specialists, sources said. And yet, the 76ers don’t appear any closer to a trade than they were in the offseason and prior to training camp.

LOL

I guess Morey did not think the plan was so silly.

[AaronB]

So to clarify:

1. The assumption is that the Sixers are willing to weaken Simmons' value by including Harris yet the Pelicans are basically receiving Simmons for nothing yet not taking Harris.
2. The idea behind also trading Harris is to get all expirings so the Sixers have cap space for a max in the summer (Beal, Harden). This trade doesn't come close to accomplishing that.
3. Sixers might be willing to take a hit on Simmons to move Harris but not to the point of receiving nothing for Simmons.
4. Who are the four players that Philly would need to cut for this trade to be processed?

Other than that, great.

So to clarify:

1. A non-playing (with no ETA of return) Simmons with mental health issues with a max contract is a significantly negative contract. Probably the most negative contract in the NBA.

2. A playing and mentally healthy Simmons changes that equation significantly, but he is still limited offensively on a Max contract.

3. In order to move such a negative contract, Morey will need to find a very stupid or desperate GM who will pay top dollar for the Simmons contract.

4. After finding said stupid or desperate GM, there will need to be a match of players and contracts.

Other than that, great.

I understand you believe Simmons to be the worst contract in the league. Please understand why I believe that makes you not worth debating with.

LOL

It must have been painful to find out Morey is doing exactly what I said he should do a week ago (quit fining Simmons).

All that moral outrage down the drain to simple game theory.

It won't be long before they refund the entire fine escrow account to Simmons.

[babyjax13]

I don't see Sacramento trading Hali. He is a great compliment to Simmons and Fox just isn't. I also think we need to ignore the desire to move Harris. Sacramento can send the kind of asset that might facilitate that in a subsequent deal, but it makes the trade overly complicated.

Fox + Barnes + 1st for Simmons + Green
It's a simple deal. Philly gets a player who is not as good as Simmons, but also gets a great tertiary option in Barnes who fits anywhere, and a first to package with Harris if they really want to move him. Sacramento gets the best player, and adds another shooter. I love what the Kings could do with a core of Hali + Simmons.

[Pelon chingon]

I don't see Sacramento trading Hali. He is a great compliment to Simmons and Fox just isn't. I also think we need to ignore the desire to move Harris. Sacramento can send the kind of asset that might facilitate that in a subsequent deal, but it makes the trade overly complicated.

Fox + Barnes + 1st for Simmons + Green
It's a simple deal. Philly gets a player who is not as good as Simmons, but also gets a great tertiary option in Barnes who fits anywhere, and a first to package with Harris if they really want to move him. Sacramento gets the best player, and adds another shooter. I love what the Kings could do with a core of Hali + Simmons.

I dont think Sacramento has to send the 1st. Who exactly are they bidding against?

[babyjax13]

I don't see Sacramento trading Hali. He is a great compliment to Simmons and Fox just isn't. I also think we need to ignore the desire to move Harris. Sacramento can send the kind of asset that might facilitate that in a subsequent deal, but it makes the trade overly complicated.

Fox + Barnes + 1st for Simmons + Green
It's a simple deal. Philly gets a player who is not as good as Simmons, but also gets a great tertiary option in Barnes who fits anywhere, and a first to package with Harris if they really want to move him. Sacramento gets the best player, and adds another shooter. I love what the Kings could do with a core of Hali + Simmons.

I dont think Sacramento has to send the 1st. Who exactly are they bidding against?

You might be right, but they do have to convince Morey not to wait till the offseason when more might be open (and it seems he is willing to wait). I think the upgrade from Fox to Simmons is worth it, but YMMV.

[WargamesX]

I don't see Sacramento trading Hali. He is a great compliment to Simmons and Fox just isn't. I also think we need to ignore the desire to move Harris. Sacramento can send the kind of asset that might facilitate that in a subsequent deal, but it makes the trade overly complicated.

Fox + Barnes + 1st for Simmons + Green
It's a simple deal. Philly gets a player who is not as good as Simmons, but also gets a great tertiary option in Barnes who fits anywhere, and a first to package with Harris if they really want to move him. Sacramento gets the best player, and adds another shooter. I love what the Kings could do with a core of Hali + Simmons.

I dont think Sacramento has to send the 1st. Who exactly are they bidding against?

You might be right, but they do have to convince Morey not to wait till the offseason when more might be open (and it seems he is willing to wait). I think the upgrade from Fox to Simmons is worth it, but YMMV.

Idk, from what we’ve been hearing Morey wants multiple first… I also think if Fox, Barnes, and 1st could have got that trade done Philly would have been shipped out Simmons to Sacramento. Other teams would be mad because they could offer better. This trade is going to be a three or four team trade and Sacramento is going to have to do the heavy carrying if they want Simmons.

[babyjax13]

I dont think Sacramento has to send the 1st. Who exactly are they bidding against?

You might be right, but they do have to convince Morey not to wait till the offseason when more might be open (and it seems he is willing to wait). I think the upgrade from Fox to Simmons is worth it, but YMMV.

Idk, from what we’ve been hearing Morey wants multiple first… I also think if Fox, Barnes, and 1st could have got that trade done Philly would have been shipped out Simmons to Sacramento. Other teams would be mad because they could offer better. This trade is going to be a three or four team trade and Sacramento is going to have to do the heavy carrying if they want Simmons.

Realistically what deal have we heard about that is better? Brogdon + 1st isn't better (or Brogdon + 2 1sts), neither is whatever Minnesota was realistically going to put together (Beasley+Prince+McDaniels+2 1sts?), and maybe you prefer a possible Atlanta deal (Collins + Bogdanovic + 1st?) but I think this is, at worst, comparable.

[WargamesX]

You might be right, but they do have to convince Morey not to wait till the offseason when more might be open (and it seems he is willing to wait). I think the upgrade from Fox to Simmons is worth it, but YMMV.

Idk, from what we’ve been hearing Morey wants multiple first… I also think if Fox, Barnes, and 1st could have got that trade done Philly would have been shipped out Simmons to Sacramento. Other teams would be mad because they could offer better. This trade is going to be a three or four team trade and Sacramento is going to have to do the heavy carrying if they want Simmons.

Realistically what deal have we heard about that is better? Brogdon + 1st isn't better (or Brogdon + 2 1sts), neither is whatever Minnesota was realistically going to put together (Beasley+Prince+McDaniels+2 1sts?), and maybe you prefer a possible Atlanta deal (Collins + Bogdanovic + 1st?) but I think this is, at worst, comparable.

That just feeds further into my belief this is going to be a multi team trade. Morey wants more than any team can offer by themselves and also come the summer more teams might have better packages post the draft so the price might go up again. Just based on the rumored picks and salaries involved alone it sounds like a 3 team trade. Then add the fact they want talent back.

[BullyKing]

So to clarify:

1. A non-playing (with no ETA of return) Simmons with mental health issues with a max contract is a significantly negative contract. Probably the most negative contract in the NBA.

2. A playing and mentally healthy Simmons changes that equation significantly, but he is still limited offensively on a Max contract.

3. In order to move such a negative contract, Morey will need to find a very stupid or desperate GM who will pay top dollar for the Simmons contract.

4. After finding said stupid or desperate GM, there will need to be a match of players and contracts.

Other than that, great.

I understand you believe Simmons to be the worst contract in the league. Please understand why I believe that makes you not worth debating with.

LOL

It must have been painful to find out Morey is doing exactly what I said he should do a week ago (quit fining Simmons).

All that moral outrage down the drain to simple game theory.

It won't be long before they refund the entire fine escrow account to Simmons.

So you've spammed this board and the Sixers board bashing Morey for not paying Simmons because that might get Simmons to play and take a victory lap when your theory has been disproven? Ok. What a fulfilling life you must have.

[GutUNC]

My problem with Morey is that, while a really good GM, he has a poor understanding of game theory.

It is almost a classic prisoner's dilemma. The very best move by Morey in game theory is to fall on his sword and start paying Simmons. Worst case things stay the same. The best case improves the outcome for all.

Game theory does not account for moral consternation, but Morey should just consider the choices best for his business.

This theory was silly when you concocted it, and even worse after Shams reported they aren't fining him any more.

Simmons has yet to play this season after informing his 76ers organization, coaches and teammates that he is not mentally ready to play and needs time to work on himself. The 76ers have not been fining Simmons, as he fulfills team obligations such as training sessions and team meetings as well as continuing to meet with mental health specialists, sources said. And yet, the 76ers don’t appear any closer to a trade than they were in the offseason and prior to training camp.

LOL

I guess Morey did not think the plan was so silly.

No, Simmons finally met the extremely low bar he needed to in order to get paid through the CBA. As was already explained to you. And you ignored. Again.

[AaronB]

I understand you believe Simmons to be the worst contract in the league. Please understand why I believe that makes you not worth debating with.

LOL

It must have been painful to find out Morey is doing exactly what I said he should do a week ago (quit fining Simmons).

All that moral outrage down the drain to simple game theory.

It won't be long before they refund the entire fine escrow account to Simmons.

So you've spammed this board and the Sixers board bashing Morey for not paying Simmons because that might get Simmons to play and take a victory lap when your theory has been disproven? Ok. What a fulfilling life you must have.

LOL

Paying Simmons was simple logic. Glad that the 6er management finally figured it out.

Of course, they botched the implementation. Should have just said "that the organization has reconsidered our interactions with employees with mental health issues and improved our response policies".

This allows an employee who they have to pay, who is an extremely valuable part of the organization (by $, he is almost the most valuable investment to the organization) to return with dignity after having mental health issues.

[Texas Chuck]

Feels like this has turned into a different discussion and one that has been had one billion times here and nobody on either side is going to be swayed by posting lol and then telling them why you are right and they are wrong. So just putting this out of its misery.

There is a dedicated Simmons thread on the GB and go hot take all you want good or bad on him there.