NYK/PHO

[Laimbeer]

After the deal can be made -

Robinson, Randle

for

Ayton, Shamet

Ayton is unhappy in Phoenix and Randle gives them the opportunity to move up a step if he regroups there.

The Knicks upgrade the center position and turn the four over to Toppin.

[HornetJail]

Knicks need to send multiple picks

[Andre Roberstan]

Knicks need to send multiple picks

Agreed; I don't see value here. But I've been down on Randle for a while.

Picks or a better player. Others may value differently.

[Knickfan1982]

Knicks need to send multiple picks

How many top 55 protected 2nd rounders do you think would be enough? The biggest difference between Ayton and Robinson is with offensive production but that benefit is immediately negated by sending them Randle. So we downgrade in one spot to slightly upgrade another and you want us to add multiple picks in the process. No thanks. I am perfectly content to see how things play out with Brunson leading the offense.

[Crives]

I don’t see phx trading Ayton.. maybe if we get a new owner who wants to shake things up.

If they do trade Ayton, I think there will be better offers, and I don’t think they will be to interested in Robinson… Monty really likes bigs who can shoot.

I could see phx doing Ayton + Jae for Randle + Grimes + pick(s)

[JRoy]

Knicks need to send multiple picks

How many top 55 protected 2nd rounders do you think would be enough? The biggest difference between Ayton and Robinson is with offensive production but that benefit is immediately negated by sending them Randle. So we downgrade in one spot to slightly upgrade another and you want us to add multiple picks in the process. No thanks. I am perfectly content to see how things play out with Brunson leading the offense.

I disagree.

Ayton is substantially better than Robinson and Randle is a straight negative.

It might be argued that Aytons contract makes his value negative but this looks about 2 FRP short to me if PHX would do it at all.

Don’t see a reason for PHX to consider this deal and they are looking to contend.

[WargamesX]

Knicks need to send multiple picks

How many top 55 protected 2nd rounders do you think would be enough? The biggest difference between Ayton and Robinson is with offensive production but that benefit is immediately negated by sending them Randle. So we downgrade in one spot to slightly upgrade another and you want us to add multiple picks in the process. No thanks. I am perfectly content to see how things play out with Brunson leading the offense.

I disagree.

Ayton is substantially better than Robinson and Randle is a straight negative.

It might be argued that Aytons contract makes his value negative but this looks about 2 FRP short to me if PHX would do it at all.

Don’t see a reason for PHX to consider this deal and they are looking to contend.

Knicks aren’t sending out picks to also send out Randle with Robinson

Knicks out: Robinson, Fournier, 2 1st round picks
Knicks in: Ayton

Ayton
Randle
RJ
Grimes
Brunson

Keep in mind I am not sure the Knicks see the need to upgrade at Center. Their defense is heavily reliant on 48 minutes of rim protection.

[Knickfan1982]

Knicks need to send multiple picks

How many top 55 protected 2nd rounders do you think would be enough? The biggest difference between Ayton and Robinson is with offensive production but that benefit is immediately negated by sending them Randle. So we downgrade in one spot to slightly upgrade another and you want us to add multiple picks in the process. No thanks. I am perfectly content to see how things play out with Brunson leading the offense.

I disagree.

Ayton is substantially better than Robinson and Randle is a straight negative.

It might be argued that Aytons contract makes his value negative but this looks about 2 FRP short to me if PHX would do it at all.

Don’t see a reason for PHX to consider this deal and they are looking to contend.

You may think Ayton is a huge upgrade over Robinson but I think you're wrong. He's better offensively. Sure. But Robinson isn't asked to do much in our offense anyway. His main role is to rebound and be shot blocking threat that other teams offenses have to keep in mind. Any offense we get from him is gravy because when it comes to scoring he's well down the totem pole. But Ayton is better offensively so in that regards he is a slight upgrade. But offensively, Ayton is much less talented than Randle so losing Randle in the process makes this a big negative for our on court team. Its something I'd still consider because we like Toppin a lot but adding in multiple first round picks for the right to become a worse team is absolutely laughable.

[JRoy]

How many top 55 protected 2nd rounders do you think would be enough? The biggest difference between Ayton and Robinson is with offensive production but that benefit is immediately negated by sending them Randle. So we downgrade in one spot to slightly upgrade another and you want us to add multiple picks in the process. No thanks. I am perfectly content to see how things play out with Brunson leading the offense.

I disagree.

Ayton is substantially better than Robinson and Randle is a straight negative.

It might be argued that Aytons contract makes his value negative but this looks about 2 FRP short to me if PHX would do it at all.

Don’t see a reason for PHX to consider this deal and they are looking to contend.

You may think Ayton is a huge upgrade over Robinson but I think you're wrong. He's better offensively. Sure. But Robinson isn't asked to do much in our offense anyway. His main role is to rebound and be shot blocking threat that other teams offenses have to keep in mind. Any offense we get from him is gravy because when it comes to scoring he's well down the totem pole. But Ayton is better offensively so in that regards he is a slight upgrade. But offensively, Ayton is much less talented than Randle so losing Randle in the process makes this a big negative for our on court team. Its something I'd still consider because we like Toppin a lot but adding in multiple first round picks for the right to become a worse team is absolutely laughable.

Robinson looks to me like he has low bb iq. Usually that sticks with a guy throughout his career. Some guys, like Javale McGee sort themselves out and improve. Some don’t.

It is never other teams that are making deals to bring Randle to their team.

[Knickfan1982]

Robinson looks to me like he has low bb iq. Usually that sticks with a guy throughout his career. Some guys, like Javale McGee sort themselves out and improve. Some don’t.

I have never played competitive basketball with a college team. Mitchell Robinson doesn't have that much more experience than I do.So he was raw as "F" when he came in the league and we Knick fans are very happy with him.

It is never other teams that are making deals to bring Randle to their team.

A crappy proposal on a fan board is a crappy proposal on a fan board. Suggesting the Knicks give up 2 starters and multiple first rounders for a slight upgrade at center is a crappy proposal.

[JRoy]

Robinson looks to me like he has low bb iq. Usually that sticks with a guy throughout his career. Some guys, like Javale McGee sort themselves out and improve. Some don’t.

I have never played competitive basketball with a college team. Mitchell Robinson doesn't have that much more experience than I do.So he was raw as "F" when he came in the league and we Knick fans are very happy with him.

It is never other teams that are making deals to bring Randle to their team.

A crappy proposal on a fan board is a crappy proposal on a fan board. Suggesting the Knicks give up 2 starters and multiple first rounders for a slight upgrade at center is a crappy proposal.

Suggesting PHX send a solid young starter for a rotation player with a limited skill set and bad contract (attached to a ball dominant prima donna with questionable attitude) and zero incentive is an even crappier proposal.

[cgf]

Knicks need to send multiple picks

How many top 55 protected 2nd rounders do you think would be enough? The biggest difference between Ayton and Robinson is with offensive production but that benefit is immediately negated by sending them Randle. So we downgrade in one spot to slightly upgrade another and you want us to add multiple picks in the process. No thanks. I am perfectly content to see how things play out with Brunson leading the offense.

I disagree.

Ayton is substantially better than Robinson and Randle is a straight negative.

It might be argued that Aytons contract makes his value negative but this looks about 2 FRP short to me if PHX would do it at all.

Don’t see a reason for PHX to consider this deal and they are looking to contend.

The Knicks FO has reportedly passed on "neutral value offers" for Randle, so clearly they don't value him as a negative; which should mean it's unlikely they'll agree to any trade that does value him as "a straight negative"

Suggesting PHX send a solid young starter for a rotation player with a limited skill set and bad contract (attached to a ball dominant prima donna with questionable attitude) and zero incentive is an even crappier proposal.

But what if we sent them Robinson & Randle?...or better yet, kept them?

[jredsaz]

Knicks need to send multiple picks

How many top 55 protected 2nd rounders do you think would be enough? The biggest difference between Ayton and Robinson is with offensive production but that benefit is immediately negated by sending them Randle. So we downgrade in one spot to slightly upgrade another and you want us to add multiple picks in the process. No thanks. I am perfectly content to see how things play out with Brunson leading the offense.

Randle is a super talented offensive guy but he is also a ball stopper. That makes him hard to fit into a system like the Suns run. If he were an elite ISO guy like Kawhi, Durant, Luka, etc. I think it works but he hasn’t shown that to be his game. He isn’t good at picking spots. He dominates the ball. In the end I don’t think it’s an upgrade offensively for the Suns.

[cgf]

Knicks need to send multiple picks

How many top 55 protected 2nd rounders do you think would be enough? The biggest difference between Ayton and Robinson is with offensive production but that benefit is immediately negated by sending them Randle. So we downgrade in one spot to slightly upgrade another and you want us to add multiple picks in the process. No thanks. I am perfectly content to see how things play out with Brunson leading the offense.

Randle is a super talented offensive guy but he is also a ball stopper. That makes him hard to fit into a system like the Suns run. If he were an elite ISO guy like Kawhi, Durant, Luka, etc. I think it works but he hasn’t shown that to be his game. He isn’t good at picking spots. He dominates the ball. In the end I don’t think it’s an upgrade offensively for the Suns.

Julius is a very willing passer & good playmaker, who had no problems being the 3rd option in New Orleans, or taking a back seat on nights when RJ is cooking.

He has dominated the ball for us a lot, but that's a result of us choosing to run our offense through him and not having a PG to take the ball out of his hands for most of the Knicks tenure; which has left him having to initiate & execute the offense...something that he's just not talented enough to do at a high level in the NBA for long.

During the minutes he has shared with Rose, he wasn't stopping the ball any more than you'd want a player as gifted as him to, and he got his within the flow of the offense in our first preseason game with Brunson running the show...like he did with the Pels.

So the evidence that it's more about his usage/teammates is there, which is why I'm not sure that the "ballstopper" label really applies unless a team plans to bring him in just to miss-use him like we have without giving him any more help than we did



He has to shoot better than last season's 30% from 3, but even after that disaster his average since starting to work on his 3ball in New Orleans is 34.2%...and he had averaged 35.7% over his season with the pels + his first two in NYC, before last season's disaster dragged that down by 1.5%.

Plus his FT% stayed above his career average despite his struggles last season, suggesting that his shooting has really improved...even if 2021's #s were unsustainable. So I'm optimistic that he'll shoot close to league average from 3 even if he stays with us.

...nevermind if he got to play for a team with a real #1 option and CP3 creating his looks for him.



For me, the ideal model for Randle offensively is less LeBron, Kawhi, or Luka and more Zach Randolph with a 3ball, if Draymond had been a thing when Zach was coming up.

A big burly 2nd/3rd option, who also has some PG-instincts and a sense for how to create looks for his teammates...not just dumping the ball out to the open man when he gets into trouble, but on many plays you can tell that he's looking to create for a teammate from his very first dribble.

He doesn't have Draymond's touch as a passer, as he leaves at least an assist a game on the court and picks up a turnover a game more than he has to just from putting passes too far out of a guy's reach, but he has good vision and understanding of gravity.

[Slim Charless]

How many top 55 protected 2nd rounders do you think would be enough? The biggest difference between Ayton and Robinson is with offensive production but that benefit is immediately negated by sending them Randle. So we downgrade in one spot to slightly upgrade another and you want us to add multiple picks in the process. No thanks. I am perfectly content to see how things play out with Brunson leading the offense.

I disagree.

Ayton is substantially better than Robinson and Randle is a straight negative.

It might be argued that Aytons contract makes his value negative but this looks about 2 FRP short to me if PHX would do it at all.

Don’t see a reason for PHX to consider this deal and they are looking to contend.

You may think Ayton is a huge upgrade over Robinson but I think you're wrong. He's better offensively. Sure. But Robinson isn't asked to do much in our offense anyway. His main role is to rebound and be shot blocking threat that other teams offenses have to keep in mind. Any offense we get from him is gravy because when it comes to scoring he's well down the totem pole. But Ayton is better offensively so in that regards he is a slight upgrade. But offensively, Ayton is much less talented than Randle so losing Randle in the process makes this a big negative for our on court team. Its something I'd still consider because we like Toppin a lot but adding in multiple first round picks for the right to become a worse team is absolutely laughable.

I'm one of the Suns fans that think Randle to Phoenix could happen and that it makes a lot of sense. That said, even if he wasn't at a terrible point with the NYK and their fans....Ayton is still a better player. I mean the 1 yr he was an all NBA guy was when the Knicks revolved their entire offense around him and it led to a 1st round exit where he was embarrassed on a national stage.

Ayton has never gotten that kind of attention and is already a MUCH more efficient player while being 2x the defender.

You add in Julius's contract, age and the bad blood with him and it's not close.

[jredsaz]

How many top 55 protected 2nd rounders do you think would be enough? The biggest difference between Ayton and Robinson is with offensive production but that benefit is immediately negated by sending them Randle. So we downgrade in one spot to slightly upgrade another and you want us to add multiple picks in the process. No thanks. I am perfectly content to see how things play out with Brunson leading the offense.

Randle is a super talented offensive guy but he is also a ball stopper. That makes him hard to fit into a system like the Suns run. If he were an elite ISO guy like Kawhi, Durant, Luka, etc. I think it works but he hasn’t shown that to be his game. He isn’t good at picking spots. He dominates the ball. In the end I don’t think it’s an upgrade offensively for the Suns.

Julius is a very willing passer & good playmaker, who had no problems being the 3rd option in New Orleans, or taking a back seat on nights when RJ is cooking.

He has dominated the ball for us a lot, but that's a result of us choosing to run our offense through him and not having a PG to take the ball out of his hands for most of the Knicks tenure; which has left him having to initiate & execute the offense...something that he's just not talented enough to do at a high level in the NBA for long.

During the minutes he has shared with Rose, he wasn't stopping the ball any more than you'd want a player as gifted as him to, and he got his within the flow of the offense in our first preseason game with Brunson running the show...like he did with the Pels.

So the evidence that it's more about his usage/teammates is there, which is why I'm not sure that the "ballstopper" label really applies unless a team plans to bring him in just to miss-use him like we have without giving him any more help than we did



He has to shoot better than last season's 30% from 3, but even after that disaster his average since starting to work on his 3ball in New Orleans is 34.2%...and he had averaged 35.7% over his season with the pels + his first two in NYC, before last season's disaster dragged that down by 1.5%.

Plus his FT% stayed above his career average despite his struggles last season, suggesting that his shooting has really improved...even if 2021's #s were unsustainable. So I'm optimistic that he'll shoot close to league average from 3 even if he stays with us.

...nevermind if he got to play for a team with a real #1 option and CP3 creating his looks for him.



For me, the ideal model for Randle offensively is less LeBron, Kawhi, or Luka and more Zach Randolph with a 3ball, if Draymond had been a thing when Zach was coming up. A big burly 2nd/3rd option, who also has some PG-instincts and a sense for how to create looks for his teammates...not just dump the ball out to the open man when he gets in trouble...often starting plays where you can see that he's looking to create for a teammate from his very first dribble.

I’m glad you’ve seen that because I haven’t and tbf as a Knicks guy you’ve seen a lot more of Randle than I have. I don’t think his skill set fits what the Suns do.

Also, there are the defensive concerns particularly in a playoff scenario. If the suns go get Randle I think it’s a panic move. It’s not a good fit imo.

[cgf]

I disagree.

Ayton is substantially better than Robinson and Randle is a straight negative.

It might be argued that Aytons contract makes his value negative but this looks about 2 FRP short to me if PHX would do it at all.

Don’t see a reason for PHX to consider this deal and they are looking to contend.

You may think Ayton is a huge upgrade over Robinson but I think you're wrong. He's better offensively. Sure. But Robinson isn't asked to do much in our offense anyway. His main role is to rebound and be shot blocking threat that other teams offenses have to keep in mind. Any offense we get from him is gravy because when it comes to scoring he's well down the totem pole. But Ayton is better offensively so in that regards he is a slight upgrade. But offensively, Ayton is much less talented than Randle so losing Randle in the process makes this a big negative for our on court team. Its something I'd still consider because we like Toppin a lot but adding in multiple first round picks for the right to become a worse team is absolutely laughable.

I'm one of the Suns fans that think Randle to Phoenix could happen and that it makes a lot of sense. That said, even if he wasn't at a terrible point with the NYK and their fans....Ayton is still a better player. I mean the 1 yr he was an all NBA guy was when the Knicks revolved their entire offense around him and it led to a 1st round exit where he was embarrassed on a national stage.

Ayton has never gotten that kind of attention and is already a MUCH more efficient player while being 2x the defender.

You add in Julius's contract, age and the bad blood with him and it's not close.

Those are kinda related though. The last time Randle got to play with a legit #1 option and didn't have to carry an offense his TS was 60%...if Ayton had to carry a bad offense without a PG to help him run it his efficiency would drop like a rock too.

[cgf]

Randle is a super talented offensive guy but he is also a ball stopper. That makes him hard to fit into a system like the Suns run. If he were an elite ISO guy like Kawhi, Durant, Luka, etc. I think it works but he hasn’t shown that to be his game. He isn’t good at picking spots. He dominates the ball. In the end I don’t think it’s an upgrade offensively for the Suns.

Julius is a very willing passer & good playmaker, who had no problems being the 3rd option in New Orleans, or taking a back seat on nights when RJ is cooking.

He has dominated the ball for us a lot, but that's a result of us choosing to run our offense through him and not having a PG to take the ball out of his hands for most of the Knicks tenure; which has left him having to initiate & execute the offense...something that he's just not talented enough to do at a high level in the NBA for long.

During the minutes he has shared with Rose, he wasn't stopping the ball any more than you'd want a player as gifted as him to, and he got his within the flow of the offense in our first preseason game with Brunson running the show...like he did with the Pels.

So the evidence that it's more about his usage/teammates is there, which is why I'm not sure that the "ballstopper" label really applies unless a team plans to bring him in just to miss-use him like we have without giving him any more help than we did



He has to shoot better than last season's 30% from 3, but even after that disaster his average since starting to work on his 3ball in New Orleans is 34.2%...and he had averaged 35.7% over his season with the pels + his first two in NYC, before last season's disaster dragged that down by 1.5%.

Plus his FT% stayed above his career average despite his struggles last season, suggesting that his shooting has really improved...even if 2021's #s were unsustainable. So I'm optimistic that he'll shoot close to league average from 3 even if he stays with us.

...nevermind if he got to play for a team with a real #1 option and CP3 creating his looks for him.



For me, the ideal model for Randle offensively is less LeBron, Kawhi, or Luka and more Zach Randolph with a 3ball, if Draymond had been a thing when Zach was coming up. A big burly 2nd/3rd option, who also has some PG-instincts and a sense for how to create looks for his teammates...not just dump the ball out to the open man when he gets in trouble...often starting plays where you can see that he's looking to create for a teammate from his very first dribble.

I’m glad you’ve seen that because I haven’t and tbf as a Knicks guy you’ve seen a lot more of Randle than I have. I don’t think his skill set fits what the Suns do.

Also, there are the defensive concerns particularly in a playoff scenario. If the suns go get Randle I think it’s a panic move. It’s not a good fit imo.

Which I get, we haven't been the most fun team to watch...especially last year...and I, for weird reasons, watched Randle's NOLA season pretty closely. My bff & I were trying to get a third friend into the NBA that year & he picked the Pels as his team because "they had the stupidest mascot". So I have a very different perspective on Randle than most.

...but I really feel like Randle's "warts" all circle back to the same problem of us asking too much of him. If he were on a team with a true #1 option on the perimeter, a quality PG running the show, good 3&D wings, and a stretch 5...aka a team like Memphis...I think he'd shine and be easily outplaying that 10th-highest PF salary that he's getting.

The plays he forces that he knows he shouldn't but because he's our #1 option has had to, and the bad looks he's had to take for us that he didn't with the Pels; dragged down his efficiency. How hard he has to fight just to initiate our offense + the crazy minutes Thibs gave him + the covid last season; drained his energy defensively which is why his defensive metrics fell back from the previous season, despite Julius still being a good defender 1-4 when fresh.

All of that s*** that's dragged his results down since leaving the pels, has its roots in Julius just not being the #1 option we have asked him to be...without even giving him a starting-caliber PG to help...

[Crives]

I don’t get the disagreements on Randle… he clearly is a risky asset on a big contract…. He has a ton of upside and could be a steal… he has a ton of downside and could be on a terrible deal.

[jredsaz]

I don’t get the disagreements on Randle… he clearly is a risky asset on a big contract…. He has a ton of upside and could be a steal… he has a ton of downside and could be on a terrible deal.

100% agree but I think it is more complicated than that. I’m not even sure peak Randle is a particularly good fit with the Suns as currently constructed.