Thoughts in General, Rumors, the 9th Circle of Hell

[Texas Chuck]

Heard on the Lowe Post from Bobby Marks that the extension rules that prevent OG from extending on a near-market deal may be adjusted in the new CBA in time to not let him hit the market. That tweaks his value up a bit.

Not to buying teams. I wouldn't pay an added premium over what is already a really high ask hoping that rule gets changed. Maybe after the rule gets changed, it might increase it, but you don't pay more over a maybe.

[jayjaysee]

Since OG agreed to his extension midseason - his extension anniversary is December 2023.

When I read about it, I don’t see anything that says only the final year can be renegotiated. So is it possible that OG gets a nice 20 million dollar raise next season and his PO goes up a smaller number if he’s on a team with cap space? He never hits free agency and whatever team has the ability to avoid paying him what some think he’s worth on a multi year contract.

I see you can’t extend a player within six months of trading for them to avoid getting around the sign and trade rules, but don’t see a rule about renegotiating multiple seasons..

Scoot?

Resistance?

[Mavrelous]

Heard on the Lowe Post from Bobby Marks that the extension rules that prevent OG from extending on a near-market deal may be adjusted in the new CBA in time to not let him hit the market. That tweaks his value up a bit.

What's OG projected extension? It's definitely higher than what Bridges got, if this isn't enough for OG, then this should drive his value further down, you're basically paying for the right to overpay OG.

[165bows]

I'm starting to think the Raptors will overhaul a bit pre-deadline, but also get a ridiculous return and Raptors fans are closer than a lot of us think on what they get.

Maybe the Gobert package from Dallas might make sense.

Edit: kind of like how that turns out.

Poeltl/Bullock/Josh Green to Toronto
Bertans/McGee to SA
FVV/OG/Achiuwa to Dallas

San Antonio and Toronto divvy up all of Dallas’ draft picks. Would be a follow up move for Toronto but they’d have a fun team and some picks. I’d do Trent for Clarkson and have a mixed crew of Clarkson, Barnes, Siakam, Poeltl and a good draft choice this year.

I hate hate hate giving up all my draft picks for OG.

edit: And I hate it even more when I keep reading and hear that Dallas owes more value here? I mean, just no. We have absolutely lost our mind over the Bertans contract if we have reached the conclusion that Dallas owes more than:

Bullock
Green
3 unprotected 1sts
3 swaps

for

OG/FVV rental

Well I think it's worth factoring in that the picks prob are assumed to have not that high a value. I think it's fair what people are saying (doesn't mean it's accurate, just fair). A smattering of very late firsts as the core of the return for two average or above starters, another role player, dumping the Bertans contract and the McGee contract.

I did forget there was a third swap, I was thinking there were only two.

So one can quibble about the exact value but you aren't fairly laying out the value - it's the classic restate the original post in a warped way to make your case. Ie, is Bullock that much better than Achiuwa as a trade piece, considering the $, age, etc? Because you just left him out and dumping McGee's deal because rather than just respond with what you think the value is, you are grumpy about it.

Take the Brogdon deal, which many people said was an under pay (they def did when I proposed it). A late first, a young player, some dumped salary for a solid starting level guy. Except he's older and has major injury concerns. So at least doubling that deal is a valid starting point. Or 2x the size of the Derrick White deal, is two picks, two swaps, and a few bodies moving around. So one can move the value around a bit or protect the picks or whatnot but it's not wildly invalid.

Of course, it would have to have some solid reassurance around guys resigning to pull the trigger on something like that. I could see keeping bullock out of it for some other salary but don't know what that is. I think he's prob more valuable to Dallas than others, imo with his age he prob doesn't have near his trade value compared to his current on-court value.

[shrink]

Gobert conundrum

His only option to break them up is to trade Kat and get back some assets. But who wants KAT? Not many people probably?

“Conundrum?”
“Only option?”

I understand people don’t watch the Wolves, but now that the GM has both both, I bet he sees how they work together.

[Texas Chuck]

But all Dallas needs to do to “build a team around Luka” is to trade for one player. They have the team, depth, defense, shooters.. They just need someone better than Wood, Brunson, Dinwiddie, Porzingis… that’s all they need though. It’s not as dramatic as a lot of people here try to make it seem for whatever reason.

There is an interesting dichtomy around here. We have posters insisting Dallas might as well trade Luka now because they have no chance to build a contender around him(ignoring the WCF of just last year I guess?). Then we have other posters who think Dallas should invest every asset for a good role player or two.

Obviously a big part of the trade Luka crowd's motivation is wanting him. They probably don't really believe its impossible for Dallas to build around him, but they do root for Dallas to fail because it brings Luka into the mix. I do understand wanting to manifest that.

And obviously some of the other crowd is motivated by getting top dollar for a player they want to trade and Dallas is a good stalking horse because of perceived desperation. I get that too.

For me, while I am really frustrated by this season and hope they do something, I refuse to panic. We are now 6 months from controlling all our first round picks and the worst 2 contracts on the team will be the 2 year deal for THJ and the 1+$5M dead of Bertans neither of which would remotely prevent them from being used as matching in a big deal. And if for some reason THJ was, then Dallas keeps him for playable depth.

If by the deadline of 2025 Dallas hasn't been able to add a major piece, or found the perfect combo of role players around Luka, then I will start getting nervous that Dallas may fail around Luka. But how many high draft picks drafted to bad teams with no other assets make the playoffs 3 of the first 4 years and the WCF by year 4? Luka's very greatness sped the timetable. Yet Dallas is incompetent? The team with the 2nd most wins this century?

Nah I'll be a homer til I die that Dallas isn't one of the worst run organizations in the Association, not by a long shot. Those old guys like me know what that looks like. We remember Perot Jr and Quinn Buckner and Richie Adabato and Jim Cleamons and drafting Cherokee Parks and Samaki Walker and Chris Antsley. This? Not close to that.

[Texas Chuck]

Gobert conundrum

His only option to break them up is to trade Kat and get back some assets. But who wants KAT? Not many people probably?

“Conundrum?”
“Only option?”

I understand people don’t watch the Wolves, but now that the GM has both both, I bet he sees how they work together.

Sorry. It's your only option. You must trade Towns, but sadly no team wants him. Fold the franchise I guess.

Wild some of these takes lol.

[jayjaysee]

Is there a Dame for Barnes deal that can be done? Something with LAL always.

Like FVV, Boucher, Birch to LAL. Dame, GP2 to Toronto. Barnes, Russ, and about a first from each team to Dame? Plus smaller contacts to avoid the tax for Toronto/Portland. Minor stuff.

Or is that just a nonstarter for Portland? For Toronto?

Too late for Portland to give up on this season? Too late for Toronto to push in for this season?

And really you could expand it to include GTJ to LAL and Nurk to Toronto. Nurk/Pascal/OG/GP/Dame makes you feel like you can win a title?

[Texas Chuck]

Is there a Dame for Barnes deal that can be done? Something with LAL always.

Like FVV, Boucher, Birch to LAL. Dame, GP2 to Toronto. Barnes, Russ, and about a first from each team to Dame? Plus smaller contacts to avoid the tax for Toronto/Portland. Minor stuff.

Or is that just a nonstarter for Portland? For Toronto?

Too late for Portland to give up on this season? Too late for Toronto to push in for this season?

And really you could expand it to include GTJ to LAL and Nurk to Toronto. Nurk/Pascal/OG/GP/Dame makes you feel like you can win a title?

I like the bones of this. I think its probably harder to get Toronto/Portland to do it at the deadline as opposed to the summer, but obviously with the Toronto contracts it would have to be now.

But I agree, I think that Toronto team would be so scary.

[gambitx777]

Gobert conundrum

His only option to break them up is to trade Kat and get back some assets. But who wants KAT? Not many people probably?

“Conundrum?”
“Only option?”

I understand people don’t watch the Wolves, but now that the GM has both both, I bet he sees how they work together.

I'm saying if the GM says ok this isn't working let's break it up. He can't trade gobert because he won't get back what he paid. That's would be almost instant job death. His only option to break them up if he wants to, is to trade KAT. Because he can control the narrative on that. In not saying they need to make a trade, and I'm not saying they need to move KAT. I'm just saying if they decide to move one. I had to be KAT.

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[shrink]

But all Dallas needs to do to “build a team around Luka” is to trade for one player. They have the team, depth, defense, shooters.. They just need someone better than Wood, Brunson, Dinwiddie, Porzingis… that’s all they need though. It’s not as dramatic as a lot of people here try to make it seem for whatever reason.

There is an interesting dichtomy around here. We have posters insisting Dallas might as well trade Luka now because they have no chance to build a contender around him(ignoring the WCF of just last year I guess?). Then we have other posters who think Dallas should invest every asset for a good role player or two.

Minnesota fans have gone through this for the last four years. Karl Anthony Towns is clearly no Luka, but most of the MIN trades we saw were for KAT, with the reasoning “you have to trade him to us, or else he’ll walk!” But he never walked, despite several years that were far more disappointing than anything Luka has gone through, and he even gave them a couple All-NBA seasons. The Wolves changed everything except Towns, and things have looked brighter these last couple of years.

I don’t think “trade Luka” is imaginable. Luka is an MVP-level franchise player, and has more value alone than all the players and picks on most teams. These are the players that win championships. And I also don’t think that one January 26, 2023, there is a realistic co-star available than DAL can acquire with its assets that makes much sense. And that’s okay. Luka isn’t close to walking right now, despite whatever story the national media tries to create to generate clicks from dreamers who want to see him on their team.

I think DAL will continue to explore options, and they should. And it’s wise to get Luka’s input, since keeping him happy is important. I think DAL will do something, but won’t make an all-in move right now. Maybe they use this time to exchange other players to see if Luka can unlock more in them. Or maybe they make a small deal that makes Luka happy. Has the Goran Dragic ship sailed?

[Slava]

Is there a Dame for Barnes deal that can be done? Something with LAL always.

Like FVV, Boucher, Birch to LAL. Dame, GP2 to Toronto. Barnes, Russ, and about a first from each team to Dame? Plus smaller contacts to avoid the tax for Toronto/Portland. Minor stuff.

Or is that just a nonstarter for Portland? For Toronto?

Too late for Portland to give up on this season? Too late for Toronto to push in for this season?

And really you could expand it to include GTJ to LAL and Nurk to Toronto. Nurk/Pascal/OG/GP/Dame makes you feel like you can win a title?

Are we talking Scottie Barnes? I can't see Toronto dealing him, let alone for Dame in his 30s and owed an absurd amount of future money. I do however see the Lakers throwing the unprotected picks at Portland if they decided to deal Lillard.

[Devilanche]

His only option to break them up is to trade Kat and get back some assets. But who wants KAT? Not many people probably?

“Conundrum?”
“Only option?”

I understand people don’t watch the Wolves, but now that the GM has both both, I bet he sees how they work together.

I'm saying if the GM says ok this isn't working let's break it up. He can't trade gobert because he won't get back what he paid. That's would be almost instant job death. His only option to break them up if he wants to, is to trade KAT. Because he can control the narrative on that. In not saying they need to make a trade, and I'm not saying they need to move KAT. I'm just saying if they decide to move one. I had to be KAT.

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There’s 5-6 players on heavy minutes and there’s a coach that supposedly will come up with a system how it works .

If/ when it fails this season . Obviously you tweak around that players . Keep Gobert . Keep KAT. Keep ANT . The next 3 in terms of minutes , anyone we can trade to make it work ? Any MLE signings we can sign to tweak the team further ? If really desperate change the coach …

Only after another failure next season then you CONSIDER trade one of the duo . Not now .

[Scoot McGroot]

Heard on the Lowe Post from Bobby Marks that the extension rules that prevent OG from extending on a near-market deal may be adjusted in the new CBA in time to not let him hit the market. That tweaks his value up a bit.

Not to buying teams. I wouldn't pay an added premium over what is already a really high ask hoping that rule gets changed. Maybe after the rule gets changed, it might increase it, but you don't pay more over a maybe.

Yup. We spent years talking about “we can’t deal 2022 firsts because that’s the double draft!”, and well, that never happened, huh?

[facothomas22]

How about this for a Raptors rebuild.

Pascal Siakam for Anfernce Simons + Shaedon Sharpe + Josh Hart and the Blazers 2025 and 2027 1st round picks(unprotected)

O.G Anunoby for AJ Griffin + Bodgan Bogdanovic and the Hawks 2023 1st round pick unprotected, Kings 2024 1st round pick(lottery protected)

Gary Trent Jr for Terrence Ross + The Bulls 2023 1st round pick(top 4 protected)

Fred VanVleet for Robert Covington + Nicolas Batum + The Clippers 2028 1st round pick(lottery Protected)

[jayjaysee]

How about this for a Raptors rebuild.

Pascal Siakam for Anfernce Simons + Shaedon Sharpe + Josh Hart and the Blazers 2025 and 2027 1st round picks(unprotected)

O.G Anunoby for AJ Griffin + Bodgan Bogdanovic and the Hawks 2023 1st round pick unprotected, Kings 2024 1st round pick(lottery protected)

Gary Trent Jr for Terrence Ross + The Bulls 2023 1st round pick(top 4 protected)

Fred VanVleet for Robert Covington + Nicolas Batum + The Clippers 2028 1st round pick(lottery Protected)

Those all look really great for Toronto.

The Clipper one is about the only one that I see the other team considering though unfortunately

[Fitz303]

How about this for a Raptors rebuild.

Pascal Siakam for Anference Simons + Shaedon Sharpe + Josh Hart and the Blazers 2025 and 2027 1st round picks(unprotected) or

O.G Anunoby for AJ Griffin + Bodgan Bogdanovic and the Hawks 2023 1st round pick unprotected, Kings 2024 1st round pick(lottery protected)

Gary Trent Jr for Terrence Ross + The Bulls 2023 1st round pick(top 4 protected)

Fred VanVleet for Robert Covington + Nicolas Batum + The Clippers 2028 1st round pick(lottery Protected)

Portland isn't going to offer anything like that up for Siakam. Take out Sharpe and swap Hart for Nurk, then we're discussing. 2 unprotected 1sts and Simons/Nurk is likely the max Portland considers (especially considering that Portland then has to unprotect their 1st to Chicago this year to make that happen as well). Including Sharpe and Hart just isn't going to happen. Been discussed to death in the last few months, but if the asking price for Siakam and OG are what Raptors fans are putting out there, I don't see Portland being in the race for either.

[Godaddycurse]

Is there a Dame for Barnes deal that can be done? Something with LAL always.

Like FVV, Boucher, Birch to LAL. Dame, GP2 to Toronto. Barnes, Russ, and about a first from each team to Dame? Plus smaller contacts to avoid the tax for Toronto/Portland. Minor stuff.

Or is that just a nonstarter for Portland? For Toronto?

Too late for Portland to give up on this season? Too late for Toronto to push in for this season?

And really you could expand it to include GTJ to LAL and Nurk to Toronto. Nurk/Pascal/OG/GP/Dame makes you feel like you can win a title?

I dont see a 22-27 team going all in for Dame.

[jayjaysee]

Is there a Dame for Barnes deal that can be done? Something with LAL always.

Like FVV, Boucher, Birch to LAL. Dame, GP2 to Toronto. Barnes, Russ, and about a first from each team to Dame? Plus smaller contacts to avoid the tax for Toronto/Portland. Minor stuff.

Or is that just a nonstarter for Portland? For Toronto?

Too late for Portland to give up on this season? Too late for Toronto to push in for this season?

And really you could expand it to include GTJ to LAL and Nurk to Toronto. Nurk/Pascal/OG/GP/Dame makes you feel like you can win a title?

Are we talking Scottie Barnes? I can't see Toronto dealing him, let alone for Dame in his 30s and owed an absurd amount of future money. I do however see the Lakers throwing the unprotected picks at Portland if they decided to deal Lillard.

I feel Toronto should either try to win a title with Pascal or trade Pascal.

I don’t understand any other path. So I think trading Barnes is the safest way to do so. Toronto wouldn’t have to mortgage their future and risk Pascal leaving and the team echoing Billy King. It’s not the market for that.

You trade Barnes for Dame, keep your future draft assets and if it doesn’t work out you can rebuild in 2-3 years. If it works out, you’ve won another tittle. That’s worth more than Barnes.

If you think there’s a player better than Dame potentially available, go ahead.

Or if you’d rather deal all your future picks (because you have Barnes) then you could go that route.

If you wait until the offseason and Pascal makes the all nba team and you want to super max him and then trade all your future picks for dame, that makes sense as well. Less downside risk once Pascal is locked up. But much harder to match Dame’s contract without GTJ/FVV deals but whatever team signs them would likely work with Toronto on a sign and trade for a second. That’s simple.

Or if you think Barnes is worth more than Dame, so Toronto should be getting LAL’s first and Portland just getting Barnes+Russ for Dame+GP+Little/Winslow whatever to stay under the tax -

I don’t agree with Barnes being worth that much but it would be really interesting for Toronto to add 1-2 unprotected firsts and Dame.

[Texas Chuck]

I feel Toronto should either try to win a title with Pascal or trade Pascal.

I don’t understand any other path. So I think trading Barnes is the safest way to do so. Toronto wouldn’t have to mortgage their future and risk Pascal leaving and the team echoing Billy King. It’s not the market for that.

Yep setting aside Dame specifically this is where I am with the Raptors too. It would be different I think if Barnes took a major step forward in year 2 and the team was gelling and you could have it both ways. But neither of those things happened. Barnes' value could absolutely go down significantly. I know fans never want to hear that, but he has another similar season next year, suddenly he's not one of the 2 or 3 best rookie contract prospects anymore. Now he's a guy you don't know what to expect, but a year from getting paid. At the same time Siakam is up.

So do you believe in Siakam and OG like you price them? Trade Barnes and get them an elite guard and try and win right now. If you don't believe in them and you think Barnes can still be a franchise player, maybe do the opposite and stack up a ton of assets and cap space to build around him.

This feels very Warriors-like in trying to do both only without the Steph/Draymond/Kerr core that made that doable. And even with that we saw it cost the Warriors the season before the title, and this year is looking shaky as well.