RealGM

Ayton to Bulls
Capella/Caruso to Suns
Vuc (sign and trade) plus the Port pick to ATL

Suns get a good center and Caruso-helps their D a lot

ATL starts Okongwu at the 4, goes with
Young/Murray
Murray/Griffin/BB
Hunter/BB/Bey
Okongwu/Johnson/Hunter
Vuc/Okongwu/?
I like that lineup better than what they had. Vuc would help Young a lot on offense, and he's still a great rebounder. Plus, he plays every night.

Bulls get younger in the middle
CWhite/Ayo
Lavine/Terry
DDR/Terry
PWill/?
Ayton/Drummond
They gamble that Ayton is an All Star in waiting.
MAYBE the Bulls can get Bey out of this deal from ATL

I’ve been kicking this around too. Don’t know if the Bulls go into the tax which they would have to if they retain White. You think they would get the go ahead on that?

Why involve Atlanta?

Vuc,Caruso and pick for Ayton

You don't need Caruso going to Suns based on the values we've had kicked around here.

Vuc+Drummond should be enough for Ayton.


Vuc $84m/4 years (22.7m, 21.6m, 20.4m, 19.3m)

zimpy27 wrote:You don't need Caruso going to Suns based on the values we've had kicked around here.

Vuc+Drummond should be enough for Ayton.


Vuc $84m/4 years (22.7m, 21.6m, 20.4m, 19.3m)

Not sure the values around “here” matter. The value phx needs to consider an Ayton trade is more important, as phx is happy to go into next season with Ayton and Vogel. Phx isn’t going to move Ayton if his perceived value is a trash can. No desperation to make a new trade with Vogel.

This makes phx a worse team now and in the future,

Other than being younger why would the Bulls want Ayton? Vucevic has played more games than Ayton the last 3 years including 82 this past season. They both put up similar stats except Vucevic can shoot the 3. On top of that Ayton makes 32 million a year. I wouldn't trade Vucevic straight up for Ayton.

Also good luck to Phoenix staying under the apron after doing a sign and trade which is why it was a 3 team trade.

zimpy27 wrote:You don't need Caruso going to Suns based on the values we've had kicked around here.

Vuc+Drummond should be enough for Ayton.


Vuc $84m/4 years (22.7m, 21.6m, 20.4m, 19.3m)

Why would the Suns do that?

Also, the Bulls need to get off of money in this deal one way or another, unlike the Suns. Bulls ownership is historically against breaching the tax. I like the Bulls as an Ayton destination but it probably involves DDR going to a third team.

kristov wrote:Other than being younger why would the Bulls want Ayton? Vucevic has played more games than Ayton the last 3 years including 82 this past season. They both put up similar stats except Vucevic can shoot the 3. On top of that Ayton makes 32 million a year. I wouldn't trade Vucevic straight up for Ayton.

Also good luck to Phoenix staying under the apron after doing a sign and trade which is why it was a 3 team trade.

Vuc isn't that good. For his career Vuc's efficiency is only league average and he has below-average defense. Vuc can hit 3s and is a good passer but he doesn't impact winning nearly as much as his boxscore numbers suggest. The Bulls keeping Vuc is doubling down on the Lavine/Derozan/Vuc core which hasn't brought us great results.

jredsaz wrote:

zimpy27 wrote:You don't need Caruso going to Suns based on the values we've had kicked around here.

Vuc+Drummond should be enough for Ayton.


Vuc $84m/4 years (22.7m, 21.6m, 20.4m, 19.3m)

Why would the Suns do that?

Also, the Bulls need to get off of money in this deal one way or another, unlike the Suns. Bulls ownership is historically against breaching the tax. I like the Bulls as an Ayton destination but it probably involves DDR going to a third team.

To get Capela+Drummond while saving $10m this season and the season after.

Beal, Booker, Craig, Druant, Capela -- Payne, Goodwin, Ish, Todd, Drummond
That squad costs $172m
You can add $10m for 5 vet min players and stay under Apron 2 ($182.5m).
Means you don't impact your 2031 FRP.

zimpy27 wrote:

jredsaz wrote:

zimpy27 wrote:You don't need Caruso going to Suns based on the values we've had kicked around here.

Vuc+Drummond should be enough for Ayton.


Vuc $84m/4 years (22.7m, 21.6m, 20.4m, 19.3m)

Why would the Suns do that?

Also, the Bulls need to get off of money in this deal one way or another, unlike the Suns. Bulls ownership is historically against breaching the tax. I like the Bulls as an Ayton destination but it probably involves DDR going to a third team.

To get Capela+Drummond while saving $10m this season and the season after.

Beal, Booker, Craig, Druant, Capela -- Payne, Goodwin, Ish, Todd, Drummond
That squad costs $172m
You can add $10m for 5 vet min players and stay under Apron 2 ($182.5m).
Means you don't impact your 2031 FRP.

I don’t think that’s the priority. Like at all.

kristov wrote:Other than being younger why would the Bulls want Ayton? Vucevic has played more games than Ayton the last 3 years including 82 this past season. They both put up similar stats except Vucevic can shoot the 3. On top of that Ayton makes 32 million a year. I wouldn't trade Vucevic straight up for Ayton.

Also good luck to Phoenix staying under the apron after doing a sign and trade which is why it was a 3 team trade.

I makes a ton of sense. He scores in a different area that can be helpful to the guard laden team. He is better switching and while not a great rim defender he is better than Vuc. Plus the DDR/Vuc/Lavine thing hasn’t worked.

Broadly it resets the roster to the younger timeline (especially moving DDR). They slide Ayton in as the second best player and take a low cost bet on him bouncing back mentally and continuing to be one of the most efficient big scorers in the NBA.

I think it makes a lot of sense for Chicago, personally. Not sure what makes sense for the Suns coming back though.

2weekswithpay wrote:

kristov wrote:Other than being younger why would the Bulls want Ayton? Vucevic has played more games than Ayton the last 3 years including 82 this past season. They both put up similar stats except Vucevic can shoot the 3. On top of that Ayton makes 32 million a year. I wouldn't trade Vucevic straight up for Ayton.

Also good luck to Phoenix staying under the apron after doing a sign and trade which is why it was a 3 team trade.

Vuc isn't that good. For his career Vuc's efficiency is only league average and he has below-average defense. Vuc can hit 3s and is a good passer but he doesn't impact winning nearly as much as his boxscore numbers suggest. The Bulls keeping Vuc is doubling down on the Lavine/Derozan/Vuc core which hasn't brought us great results.

Neither is Ayton. If Atlanta was willing to take Vucevic, I'd keep Caruso and take Capella.

jredsaz wrote:

zimpy27 wrote:

jredsaz wrote:
Why would the Suns do that?

Also, the Bulls need to get off of money in this deal one way or another, unlike the Suns. Bulls ownership is historically against breaching the tax. I like the Bulls as an Ayton destination but it probably involves DDR going to a third team.

To get Capela+Drummond while saving $10m this season and the season after.

Beal, Booker, Craig, Druant, Capela -- Payne, Goodwin, Ish, Todd, Drummond
That squad costs $172m
You can add $10m for 5 vet min players and stay under Apron 2 ($182.5m).
Means you don't impact your 2031 FRP.

I don’t think that’s the priority. Like at all.

Well 24-25 season is unavoidable, you are jumping in to Apron 2. So working a way to avoid it this year and 25-26 is what a smart GM would do to avoid penalties.

It's not like the extra $5m-$10m you go over that line is going to be the difference between championship or not.

It may not be priority but it's a risk to benefit value calculation

zimpy27 wrote:

jredsaz wrote:

zimpy27 wrote:
To get Capela+Drummond while saving $10m this season and the season after.

Beal, Booker, Craig, Druant, Capela -- Payne, Goodwin, Ish, Todd, Drummond
That squad costs $172m
You can add $10m for 5 vet min players and stay under Apron 2 ($182.5m).
Means you don't impact your 2031 FRP.

I don’t think that’s the priority. Like at all.

Well 24-25 season is unavoidable, you are jumping in to Apron 2. So working a way to avoid it this year and 25-26 is what a smart GM would do to avoid penalties.

It's not like the extra $5m-$10m you go over that line is going to be the difference between championship or not.

It may not be priority but it's a risk to benefit value calculation

They are going to blow by the second Apron this year. I get what you’re saying but I assume for the next 2-3 years they will be balls to the wall spending to help offset some of the penalties. More contracts with higher numbers allow for trades. That’s the theory that Marks and others have communicated.

To be fair, I wouldn’t have traded the house for KD but once they did, and the new CBA rules came out, they didn’t have a lot of other options if they want to significantly improve the team.

kristov wrote:

2weekswithpay wrote:

kristov wrote:Other than being younger why would the Bulls want Ayton? Vucevic has played more games than Ayton the last 3 years including 82 this past season. They both put up similar stats except Vucevic can shoot the 3. On top of that Ayton makes 32 million a year. I wouldn't trade Vucevic straight up for Ayton.

Also good luck to Phoenix staying under the apron after doing a sign and trade which is why it was a 3 team trade.

Vuc isn't that good. For his career Vuc's efficiency is only league average and he has below-average defense. Vuc can hit 3s and is a good passer but he doesn't impact winning nearly as much as his boxscore numbers suggest. The Bulls keeping Vuc is doubling down on the Lavine/Derozan/Vuc core which hasn't brought us great results.

Neither is Ayton. If Atlanta was willing to take Vucevic, I'd keep Caruso and take Capella.

If the Bulls are holding on to DDR that makes some sense but they still probably push into the tax depending on what White and Ayo get. If they want to move off DDR and shift younger Ayton makes a lot more sense than Capella.

jredsaz wrote:

zimpy27 wrote:

jredsaz wrote:
I don’t think that’s the priority. Like at all.

Well 24-25 season is unavoidable, you are jumping in to Apron 2. So working a way to avoid it this year and 25-26 is what a smart GM would do to avoid penalties.

It's not like the extra $5m-$10m you go over that line is going to be the difference between championship or not.

It may not be priority but it's a risk to benefit value calculation

They are going to blow by the second Apron this year. I get what you’re saying but I assume for the next 2-3 years they will be balls to the wall spending to help offset some of the penalties. More contracts with higher numbers allow for trades. That’s the theory that Marks and others have communicated.

To be fair, I wouldn’t have traded the house for KD but once they did, and the new CBA rules came out, they didn’t have a lot of other options if they want to significantly improve the team.

Over Apron 2 means they have no way to improve. They cant get buyouts, they can't use an MLE, they lose value on future FRPs.

Buyouts are going to be key for the Suns this year. Going over apron 2 means you're locked in with whatever team you put together now.

zimpy27 wrote:

jredsaz wrote:

zimpy27 wrote:
Well 24-25 season is unavoidable, you are jumping in to Apron 2. So working a way to avoid it this year and 25-26 is what a smart GM would do to avoid penalties.

It's not like the extra $5m-$10m you go over that line is going to be the difference between championship or not.

It may not be priority but it's a risk to benefit value calculation

They are going to blow by the second Apron this year. I get what you’re saying but I assume for the next 2-3 years they will be balls to the wall spending to help offset some of the penalties. More contracts with higher numbers allow for trades. That’s the theory that Marks and others have communicated.

To be fair, I wouldn’t have traded the house for KD but once they did, and the new CBA rules came out, they didn’t have a lot of other options if they want to significantly improve the team.

Over Apron 2 means they have no way to improve. They cant get buyouts, they can't use an MLE, they lose value on future FRPs.

I am well schooled in the new CBA dynamics, at least as they have been reported. The theory is to have large contracts on the books that can be traded for smaller deals (since they can’t aggregate salary). Expect Craig and Landale to get overpaid. Maybe Bazely too.

They will have their first next year and odds are it doesn’t get swapped (WAS will most likely have a worse record).

Good news is this guy wants to spend all the money so the scouting and player development budgets will get crazy too.

kristov wrote:

2weekswithpay wrote:

kristov wrote:Other than being younger why would the Bulls want Ayton? Vucevic has played more games than Ayton the last 3 years including 82 this past season. They both put up similar stats except Vucevic can shoot the 3. On top of that Ayton makes 32 million a year. I wouldn't trade Vucevic straight up for Ayton.

Also good luck to Phoenix staying under the apron after doing a sign and trade which is why it was a 3 team trade.

Vuc isn't that good. For his career Vuc's efficiency is only league average and he has below-average defense. Vuc can hit 3s and is a good passer but he doesn't impact winning nearly as much as his boxscore numbers suggest. The Bulls keeping Vuc is doubling down on the Lavine/Derozan/Vuc core which hasn't brought us great results.

Neither is Ayton. If Atlanta was willing to take Vucevic, I'd keep Caruso and take Capella.

That's where Ayton's age and the Bulls' current predicament come in.

The Bulls' young players aren't really good. The Bulls didn't have a FRP this year and the Spurs own our 2025 FRP. Lonzo Ball is never coming back. Derozan will be 34 before the season starts and is on an expiring. Vuc will be 33 soon and is on the decline. The Bulls had one good run for half the season last year and it's been downhill since. They barely made the play-in with the current roster, this team isn't going anywhere.

People are low on Ayton now but it's worth gambling on Ayton playing like he did during the 2021-22 season. Better that than giving Vuc an extension when the best case scenario is a first round exit.

jredsaz wrote:

zimpy27 wrote:

jredsaz wrote:
They are going to blow by the second Apron this year. I get what you’re saying but I assume for the next 2-3 years they will be balls to the wall spending to help offset some of the penalties. More contracts with higher numbers allow for trades. That’s the theory that Marks and others have communicated.

To be fair, I wouldn’t have traded the house for KD but once they did, and the new CBA rules came out, they didn’t have a lot of other options if they want to significantly improve the team.

Over Apron 2 means they have no way to improve. They cant get buyouts, they can't use an MLE, they lose value on future FRPs.

I am well schooled in the new CBA dynamics, at least as they have been reported. The theory is to have large contracts on the books that can be traded for smaller deals (since they can’t aggregate salary). Expect Craig and Landale to get overpaid. Maybe Bazely too.

They will have their first next year and odds are it doesn’t get swapped (WAS will most likely have a worse record).

Good news is this guy wants to spend all the money so the scouting and player development budgets will get crazy too.

You can pay $6.6m for Craig and Bazley you can overpay but why would you?

Do you have bird rights for Landale?

zimpy27 wrote:

jredsaz wrote:

zimpy27 wrote:
Over Apron 2 means they have no way to improve. They cant get buyouts, they can't use an MLE, they lose value on future FRPs.

I am well schooled in the new CBA dynamics, at least as they have been reported. The theory is to have large contracts on the books that can be traded for smaller deals (since they can’t aggregate salary). Expect Craig and Landale to get overpaid. Maybe Bazely too.

They will have their first next year and odds are it doesn’t get swapped (WAS will most likely have a worse record).

Good news is this guy wants to spend all the money so the scouting and player development budgets will get crazy too.

You can pay $6.6m for Craig and Bazley you can overpay but why would you?

Do you have bird rights for Landale?

They have full bird rights on Baze. TC and Landale are early bird which can pay them up to $10.2M. Honestly wonder is someone doesn’t swipe TC given the wing market.

Again, they get over paid because the Suns want contracts that can be traded. Suns won’t be able to aggregate so larger contracts allow for more options coming back in a trade.