RealGM

Season is over, both failed to make it out the second round:
Wolves send KAT/Reid to the Pels for Ingram/Jones.
Pels get a center who can step out and shoot giving Williamson room to move inside. Reduces the number of forwards Pels have.
Wolves get a running mate with Edwards and more spacing while Gobert clogs the lane.

Don't think the Wolves will give up Naz if they're trading KAT, but think the value is fine.

What is the point for the Wolves other than get worse

Northern hoops wrote:Don't think the Wolves will give up Naz if they're trading KAT, but think the value is fine.

The Reid and Jones additions are odd. That said, i have Towns worth more than Ingram as the better player and better projected durability (i know both have had their injury issues, but Towns seems more freakish whereas Ingram hurts everything all the time)

Kat/Zion frontcourt cant work because of defense.
Remove Herb from equation and that is the worst defense in the league, by a lot.

Put that aside, i also think from value perspective Pels would need something more here. Herb is one of the best contracts in the league right now. He is all-nba defender and shooting more then 40% from 3 this year. He is also a smart basketball player who is having right decision 99% of the time. Pels cant afford to lose him in this deal.

Edit: have to put this out there:



Mcdaniels: 5 years - 135 milions
Jones: 4 years - 54 milions

I think there might be something there around Ingram for KAT straight up but as a secondary trade what do y'all think of something smaller like Naz for Larry and Trey?

I think any realistic offense with Zion has to include a real floor spacer at the 5 and Naz would be that. Also I dont see any long term scenario where the Pels can aford to keep Trey and Herb at the same time unless both are starting.

For Minnesota, Larry provides a great change of pace bench big that can play with KAT or Rudy and Trey provides additional length, shooting and depth for occasional unts where Ant is the nominal point guard. Longer term it gives you a year to trade cash for assets and cap relief.

Mrakar wrote:Edit: have to put this out there:

Seems you must have forgotten to post the Towns vs Ingram comparison.

Must have been an oversight, because I know you’re all about fairness on our neutral Trade board.

https://stathead.com/tiny/lbY2H


And for the record, Herb Jones wasn’t an “All NBA defender” last year. Neither was McDaniels, but he got more votes.

https://pr.nba.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/46/2023/05/2022-23-Kia-NBA-All-Defensive-Team-Voting-Results.pdf

Mrakar wrote:Kat/Zion frontcourt cant work because of defense.
Remove Herb from equation and that is the worst defense in the league, by a lot.

Put that aside, i also think from value perspective Pels would need something more here. Herb is one of the best contracts in the league right now. He is all-nba defender and shooting more then 40% from 3 this year. He is also a smart basketball player who is having right decision 99% of the time. Pels cant afford to lose him in this deal.

Mcdaniels: 5 years - 135 milions
Jones: 4 years - 54 milions

The problem the Pelicans have wing numbers.
Zion and Ingram are the top 2, but I have read now that Jones and Murphy are must stays from several threads. Something has to give there.
Are the Pelicans going to pay Jones similarly to McDaniels? That puts nearly $90 in 3 forwards. Then add McCollum and the Pelicans are entering a horrible cost structure with no PG or center.

To Cavs: Towns + Herb

To Pels: Allen + Garland + Moore Jr

To Wolves: Ingram + Daniels + Pels Picks

Would need to be a S&T with Ingram (if Possible) being Wolves can’t risk losing Ingram for nothing.

New Cavs::
Towns
Mobley
Herb
Strus | LeVert | Okoro (back?)
Mitchell (extends? Probably has to happen before a Garland trade)

New Pels::
Allen
Zion
Murphy
McCollum
Garland

New Wolves::
Gobert
McDaniels | Reid
Ingram
Edwards
Conley | Daniels (Daniels mentored as PGOF)
*Wolves would have 2x 2024 picks and what ever draft capital from this trade to tweak-n-trade)

Wolveswin wrote:To Cavs: Towns + Herb

To Pels: Allen + Garland + Moore Jr

To Wolves: Ingram + Daniels + Pels Picks

Would need to be a S&T with Ingram (if Possible) being Wolves can’t risk losing Ingram for nothing.

I just don't see the Cavs being interested in swapping Allen for KAT. That's before you have them tossing in Garland.

jbk1234 wrote:

Wolveswin wrote:To Cavs: Towns + Herb

To Pels: Allen + Garland + Moore Jr

To Wolves: Ingram + Daniels + Pels Picks

Would need to be a S&T with Ingram (if Possible) being Wolves can’t risk losing Ingram for nothing.

I just don't see the Cavs being interested in swapping Allen for KAT. That's before you have them tossing in Garland.

I think that is looking at it wrong.

Herb for Allen is interesting value debate.

Garland = Towns

If Cavs don’t see either of those, deal is dead. I think they would.

Cavs will not trade Allen, let alone Garland.

Mrakar wrote:Kat/Zion frontcourt cant work because of defense.
Remove Herb from equation and that is the worst defense in the league, by a lot.

Put that aside, i also think from value perspective Pels would need something more here. Herb is one of the best contracts in the league right now. He is all-nba defender and shooting more then 40% from 3 this year. He is also a smart basketball player who is having right decision 99% of the time. Pels cant afford to lose him in this deal.

Edit: have to put this out there:



Mcdaniels: 5 years - 135 milions
Jones: 4 years - 54 milions

I’m going to pushback a little on the assumption that Zion and KAT can’t work defensively. KAT and Naz have a defensive rating of 105.7 in over 500 minutes of action. That would be the best defense in the league over a total 48 minutes. If KAT can do that with Reid he can do that with Zion. Especially with Herb and Trey on the wing.

louc1970 wrote:

Mrakar wrote:Kat/Zion frontcourt cant work because of defense.
Remove Herb from equation and that is the worst defense in the league, by a lot.

Put that aside, i also think from value perspective Pels would need something more here. Herb is one of the best contracts in the league right now. He is all-nba defender and shooting more then 40% from 3 this year. He is also a smart basketball player who is having right decision 99% of the time. Pels cant afford to lose him in this deal.

Mcdaniels: 5 years - 135 milions
Jones: 4 years - 54 milions

The problem the Pelicans have wing numbers.
Zion and Ingram are the top 2, but I have read now that Jones and Murphy are must stays from several threads. Something has to give there.
Are the Pelicans going to pay Jones similarly to McDaniels? That puts nearly $90 in 3 forwards. Then add McCollum and the Pelicans are entering a horrible cost structure with no PG or center.

I think your general premise is right but your specifics are little off. You’re right that the Pels can’t keep BI, Zion, Trey and Herb long term, especially if Trey gets the kind of deal expected by many. However the Pels don’t have to pay Jones similar to McDaniels because they locked him up on a deal for a fraction of the cost. Also paying 90 million a year for 3 starters is frankly fine with the new deal coming so long as that 90 includes your two best players.

Wolveswin wrote:To Cavs: Towns + Herb

To Pels: Allen + Garland + Moore Jr

To Wolves: Ingram + Daniels + Pels Picks

Would need to be a S&T with Ingram (if Possible) being Wolves can’t risk losing Ingram for nothing.

New Cavs::
Towns
Mobley
Herb
Strus | LeVert | Okoro (back?)
Mitchell (extends? Probably has to happen before a Garland trade)

New Pels::
Allen
Zion
Murphy
McCollum
Garland

New Wolves::
Gobert
McDaniels | Reid
Ingram
Edwards
Conley | Daniels (Daniels mentored as PGOF)
*Wolves would have 2x 2024 picks and what ever draft capital from this trade to tweak-n-trade)

Yeah I hate that for the Pels. Just bad fits all around. Yeah you get the team a point guard and a center but now you have a really undersized backcourt and again a front court with no shooting.

I hear you that a deal with Ingram would have to include some agreement about his willingness to remain in Minnesota so maybe like an extend and trade.

shrink wrote:

Mrakar wrote:Edit: have to put this out there:

Seems you must have forgotten to post the Towns vs Ingram comparison.

Must have been an oversight, because I know you’re all about fairness on our neutral Trade board.

https://stathead.com/tiny/lbY2H


And for the record, Herb Jones wasn’t an “All NBA defender” last year. Neither was McDaniels, but he got more votes.

https://pr.nba.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/46/2023/05/2022-23-Kia-NBA-All-Defensive-Team-Voting-Results.pdf

Like your sarcastic response, but you should really read my post and the trade proposal one more time.
I compared Herb to McDaniels to show how much value Herb actually has(because Wolves fans are high on McDaniels), i didn't compare him to Reid who is actually in the trade proposal. McDaniels is not a great value player anymore because of the contract, but Herb is.

As for the all-nba defense thing, they should both be in the running this year, and Herb will only not make it because he is on the Pelicans. If he was on the Lakers or the Knicks he would easily make it. Also they put him at forward 2 years in the row, even though he is mostly guarding guards.

lordjeff05 wrote:

Wolveswin wrote:To Cavs: Towns + Herb

To Pels: Allen + Garland + Moore Jr

To Wolves: Ingram + Daniels + Pels Picks

Would need to be a S&T with Ingram (if Possible) being Wolves can’t risk losing Ingram for nothing.

New Cavs::
Towns
Mobley
Herb
Strus | LeVert | Okoro (back?)
Mitchell (extends? Probably has to happen before a Garland trade)

New Pels::
Allen
Zion
Murphy
McCollum
Garland

New Wolves::
Gobert
McDaniels | Reid
Ingram
Edwards
Conley | Daniels (Daniels mentored as PGOF)
*Wolves would have 2x 2024 picks and what ever draft capital from this trade to tweak-n-trade)

Yeah I hate that for the Pels. Just bad fits all around. Yeah you get the team a point guard and a center but now you have a really undersized backcourt and again a front court with no shooting.

I hear you that a deal with Ingram would have to include some agreement about his willingness to remain in Minnesota so maybe like an extend and trade.

Not sure what you mean. Allen provides the defense Zion needs. I mean, does a unicorn exist who can play necessary D and shoot 3’s you say he needs. This very thread says Towns can shoot but not enough D. So who shoots like Towns but plays better D.

And do you really think Garland isn’t massive upgrade on Pels? Best PG Pels had since Holiday, young and locked in. He would be amazing fit and upgrade for Pels. If not your cup of tea, Wolves can take him direct and keep Ingram in New Orleans.

Minny is finally a legit team so not sure making any big trades like this should be on their radar (yet) but that aside, Ingram is not a good fit with Ant, IMO.

Wolveswin wrote:

lordjeff05 wrote:

Wolveswin wrote:To Cavs: Towns + Herb

To Pels: Allen + Garland + Moore Jr

To Wolves: Ingram + Daniels + Pels Picks

Would need to be a S&T with Ingram (if Possible) being Wolves can’t risk losing Ingram for nothing.

New Cavs::
Towns
Mobley
Herb
Strus | LeVert | Okoro (back?)
Mitchell (extends? Probably has to happen before a Garland trade)

New Pels::
Allen
Zion
Murphy
McCollum
Garland

New Wolves::
Gobert
McDaniels | Reid
Ingram
Edwards
Conley | Daniels (Daniels mentored as PGOF)
*Wolves would have 2x 2024 picks and what ever draft capital from this trade to tweak-n-trade)

Yeah I hate that for the Pels. Just bad fits all around. Yeah you get the team a point guard and a center but now you have a really undersized backcourt and again a front court with no shooting.

I hear you that a deal with Ingram would have to include some agreement about his willingness to remain in Minnesota so maybe like an extend and trade.

Not sure what you mean. Allen provides the defense Zion needs. I mean, does a unicorn exist who can play necessary D and shoot 3’s you say he needs. This very thread says Towns can shoot but not enough D. So who shoots like Towns but plays better D.

And do you really think Garland isn’t massive upgrade on Pels? Best PG Pels had since Holiday, young and locked in. He would be amazing fit and upgrade for Pels. If not your cup of tea, Wolves can take him direct and keep Ingram in New Orleans.

I want to be clear it’s not a talent issue, it’s a fit issue. Garland is fantastic and so is Allen. But the whole is not greater than the sum of its parts. CJ and Garland in the same backcourt is just really small. It puts a lot of stress on Trey as the only perimeter defender and on Allen. Ingram is not always a good defender but this year he’s been more locked in and when you pair him with another big wing like herb or Trey it can cause problems for other teams because that’s alot of length at the wing.

Switching Ingram for Garland turns an asset in to a liability. You get a downgrade at the 2 and at the 3 defensively in exchange for an upgrade at the 5. And defensively Zion doesn’t always look great but statistically he’s been fine, even next to a guy like Jonas who also isn’t known as a great defender.

On the other end, you probably get a net positive because Garland is more of a shooter than BI and Trey is more of a shooter than Herb not to mention Garland’s skill at organizing an offense. It’s still a wonky fit though.

lordjeff05 wrote:

Wolveswin wrote:

lordjeff05 wrote:
Yeah I hate that for the Pels. Just bad fits all around. Yeah you get the team a point guard and a center but now you have a really undersized backcourt and again a front court with no shooting.

I hear you that a deal with Ingram would have to include some agreement about his willingness to remain in Minnesota so maybe like an extend and trade.

Not sure what you mean. Allen provides the defense Zion needs. I mean, does a unicorn exist who can play necessary D and shoot 3’s you say he needs. This very thread says Towns can shoot but not enough D. So who shoots like Towns but plays better D.

And do you really think Garland isn’t massive upgrade on Pels? Best PG Pels had since Holiday, young and locked in. He would be amazing fit and upgrade for Pels. If not your cup of tea, Wolves can take him direct and keep Ingram in New Orleans.

I want to be clear it’s not a talent issue, it’s a fit issue. Garland is fantastic and so is Allen. But the whole is not greater than the sum of its parts. CJ and Garland in the same backcourt is just really small. It puts a lot of stress on Trey as the only perimeter defender and on Allen. Ingram is not always a good defender but this year he’s been more locked in and when you pair him with another big wing like herb or Trey it can cause problems for other teams because that’s alot of length at the wing.

Switching Ingram for Garland turns an asset in to a liability. You get a downgrade at the 2 and at the 3 defensively in exchange for an upgrade at the 5. And defensively Zion doesn’t always look great but statistically he’s been fine, even next to a guy like Jonas who also isn’t known as a great defender.

On the other end, you probably get a net positive because Garland is more of a shooter than BI and Trey is more of a shooter than Herb not to mention Garland’s skill at organizing an offense. It’s still a wonky fit though.

Well we can agree to disagree. Garland for Pels would be a yes - and McCollum as his age and stage isn’t guiding that decision to a no. Garland is just too young, good and locked in as new core to say no because of McCollum. If odd man needs to be out (I don’t think so) it is McCollum. And we know Pels have ton of assets to make a tweak-n-trade deal.

Allen and Jones can provide similar D just at different positions.

Allen = Jones (although most will favor Allen)
Garland > Ingram
Daniels makes up the difference.

But I get it, sacred cows trades are difficult to evaluate.