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Jazz get: $26m in cap space
Detroit gets: John Collins, two future seconds

Why for Utah: Clear space for Walker Kessler to start to restore his confidence and get some money to use on a wing player potentially.
Why for Detroit: Get a floor spacer at least and some assets for taking on a toxic contract.

Maybe Detroit does this if they strike out in FA and have a ton of leftover cap space

Oh no

Not pawning him off on us lol

Is Collins' contract 26+M this year and then a PO for the same thing next year (that he's for sure picking up because he isnt getting paid like that again)?

The fact that you called him a "toxic contract" and then try and dump it on Detroit for 2 future seconds probably tells you that its not great for them. I cant imagine that would be plan A, B, C, D, or even E of what to do with the cap space. So if they agreed to take him and his deal it would be after finding no better use. Which probably means Utah isnt going to find a wing available they like to spend money on. Unless its just to resign their own guy?

This is the last move Pistons should be making, only take back such a contract if a really worthwhile pick comes attached, in this case no. 10, but Jazz isn't doing that so no point in going there.

HadAnEffectHere wrote:Jazz get: $26m in cap space
Detroit gets: John Collins, two future seconds

Why for Utah: Clear space for Walker Kessler to start to restore his confidence and get some money to use on a wing player potentially.
Why for Detroit: Get a floor spacer at least and some assets for taking on a toxic contract.

There is absolutely zero urgency to move Collins and his contract, especially if it involves spending significant assets—ie. more than this—to do so. Kessler can either put on his big boy pants and compete or he can shrink from the fight. I'd prefer the former, but it would be counterproductive to remove obstacles, if you can even call Collins that, in his path to growth.

SkyHook wrote:

HadAnEffectHere wrote:Jazz get: $26m in cap space
Detroit gets: John Collins, two future seconds

Why for Utah: Clear space for Walker Kessler to start to restore his confidence and get some money to use on a wing player potentially.
Why for Detroit: Get a floor spacer at least and some assets for taking on a toxic contract.

There is absolutely zero urgency to move Collins and his contract, especially if it involves spending significant assets—ie. more than this—to do so. Kessler can either put on his big boy pants and compete or he can shrink from the fight. I'd prefer the former, but it would be counterproductive to remove obstacles, if you can even call Collins that, in his path to growth.

Ehh, there's no real path for Kessler ever starting as Collins sucked badly last year and Hardy showed no interest in benching him.

We were the worst defensive team in NBA history and we continued to start a 6'9" 230 center night after night.

I think Hardy just really dislikes traditional centers and defense focused players and the only way for Kessler to play is if he's the only option.

Pistons have enough cap to bring in 3 good players this summer. Should one of those be John Collins??? I’d much rather have them get Monk, Bridges and Claxton.

If Weaver is still here I'd almost suggest Utah keeps one of them 2nds.

HadAnEffectHere wrote:

SkyHook wrote:

HadAnEffectHere wrote:Jazz get: $26m in cap space
Detroit gets: John Collins, two future seconds

Why for Utah: Clear space for Walker Kessler to start to restore his confidence and get some money to use on a wing player potentially.
Why for Detroit: Get a floor spacer at least and some assets for taking on a toxic contract.

There is absolutely zero urgency to move Collins and his contract, especially if it involves spending significant assets—ie. more than this—to do so. Kessler can either put on his big boy pants and compete or he can shrink from the fight. I'd prefer the former, but it would be counterproductive to remove obstacles, if you can even call Collins that, in his path to growth.

Ehh, there's no real path for Kessler ever starting as Collins sucked badly last year and Hardy showed no interest in benching him.

We were the worst defensive team in NBA history and we continued to start a 6'9" 230 center night after night.

I think Hardy just really dislikes traditional centers and defense focused players and the only way for Kessler to play is if he's the only option.

If Collins sucked badly, then Kessler sucked worse this past season. Maybe some of that was residual effects from his early injury, but Walker was a worse player in the second half of the season than the first. If he lacks the mental toughness to overcome adversity, it's best to figure that out now. Kessler needs to improve in areas that impress Hardy — either by developing the skill sets that Hardy values or demonstrating overwhelming dominance in his current strengths. I believe he can push through and prove himself. Big boy pants time.

I'd do this before signing Tobias Harris at least. I don't hate it, but it sort of depends on what we do with the rest of the off-season and what kind of role we'd have for Collins. Obviously it'd be much more appealing if he'd found his shot again. Not sure that'll ever happen with his jacked up shooting hand, though.

Kalamazoo317 wrote:I'd do this before signing Tobias Harris at least. I don't hate it, but it sort of depends on what we do with the rest of the off-season and what kind of role we'd have for Collins. Obviously it'd be much more appealing if he'd found his shot again. Not sure that'll ever happen with his jacked up shooting hand, though.

Not to remotely overhype Collins, but the hand looks better and I'd say that he's found his shot again. He was above league averages of .366 3P% and .580 TS% at .371 and .621 respectively (not quite his previous peak years); .491 and .671 post ASG (smaller sample size, but better than his peak years).

There's no getting around that he's grossly overpaid, but the narrative that he's altogether horrible is false. He's a rotation player; a 5th to 8th man depending on the team.

If our GM sells off cap space again like that this year, he's getting fired.

I wouldn't do this for Detroit at all. Don't accept a bad contract for 2nds. Collins might play better this season but overall he hasn't been as effective as the one year the Hawks went to the ECF. He had a gnarly finger injury (this season or last?), so I know that affected his shooting for a while. I would only take Collins back if Utah is willing to part with #10 in the 2024 draft.

Clav wrote:I wouldn't do this for Detroit at all. Don't accept a bad contract for 2nds. Collins might play better this season but overall he hasn't been as effective as the one year the Hawks went to the ECF. He had a gnarly finger injury (this season or last?), so I know that affected his shooting for a while. I would only take Collins back if Utah is willing to part with #10 in the 2024 draft.

I imagine that this is probably close to what the Pistons would require for Collins into their cap space. I'd much rather the Jazz keep him at that cost.

Didn't we take on Joe Harris for a couple of seconds? Lol

Anyway, I think the hate train is running a little too hard on Collins. It looks like he has found his three-point shot again. The awfulness of his contract is probably a little overstated. Is he really worse than somebody like Kyle kuzma ?

SkyHook wrote:

Clav wrote:I wouldn't do this for Detroit at all. Don't accept a bad contract for 2nds. Collins might play better this season but overall he hasn't been as effective as the one year the Hawks went to the ECF. He had a gnarly finger injury (this season or last?), so I know that affected his shooting for a while. I would only take Collins back if Utah is willing to part with #10 in the 2024 draft.

I imagine that this is probably close to what the Pistons would require for Collins into their cap space. I'd much rather the Jazz keep him at that cost.

Im with you. I wouldn't make this trade to be clear, just I think that's the value threshold to cross. Utah can improve with this selection either with a player or trade for 2 picks with #10, etc

Beyond bad for Detroit. Taking on Collins for middling 2nds doesnt make sense

I think it takes #29 just to dump him and I'd do that.

Laimbeer wrote:Didn't we take on Joe Harris for a couple of seconds? Lol

Anyway, I think the hate train is running a little too hard on Collins. It looks like he has found his three-point shot again. The awfulness of his contract is probably a little overstated. Is he really worse than somebody like Kyle kuzma ?

25 per year for two years doesn't seem that terrible (and certainly not longterm enough to cripple us). We certainly can use athletic wings/bigs that can floor stretch. I doubt Harris comes cheaper than that, and I think I'd rather have Collins straight up over Harris, not to mention the draft capital.

If he weren't a *little* overpaid you wouldn't be getting assets to take him. But it's not like underpaid starting level players are easy to come by, especially for a team like Detroit. Seems like Collins would be good enough to start for us and could be a competent vet/floor raiser type who wouldn't hamstring us longterm but, if he worked out, might take a longer, better value contract for security.

I guess I don't get the over the top hate.