CHI | CLE | NOP: 3-team trade

[drosestruts]

The rumors coming out of Cleveland following their loss in the playoffs have been almost too much to keep up with, the one clear thing I can gather is that change is on the horizon.

Bulls in: Jarrett Allen and Max Strus
Bulls out: Nikola Vucevic, Alex Caruso, and Jevon Carter

Cavs in: Brandon Ingram, Nikola Vucevic, Alex Caruso, and Jevon Carter
Cavs out: Darius Garland, Jarrett Allen, and Max Strus

Pelicans in: Darius Garland
Pelicans out: Brandon Ingram


Why for the Bulls:
Improvemen and younger player at the center spot and some much needed shooting depth in Strus.

Why for the Cavs:
Again there's been a lot coming out about the Cavs and a lot of it is about Allen and Garland potentially being on the move. If the issue with Allen is reliability - Vuc is one of the most iron-man always available players in the league. Vuc had a bad seasons shooting the ball, provided his typical good rebounding. A bounce-back shooting season would be huge for this roster - Mobley also serves as a great frontcourt pairing with Vuc on paper.

Caruso would also be a great fit alongside Mitchell in the backcourt with his great defense and 40+% 3-point shooting.

Carter provides additional guard depth. Had been very good in Milwaukee in recent years, not so good in Chicago. Change of location could hopefully have him re-find his shooting.

Ingram brings size and scoring to this wing for the Cavs and. can be a 2nd scorer alongside Mitchell.


Why for the Pelicans:
They've been without a lead guard - McCollum does it good enough but will always be more of an undersized 2 to me, also he's on the older side. Garland is young, plays a position of need, and is locked in for 4-years which is a plus for the Pelicans in my eyes.

Feel like the idea of a Garland for Ingram swap has been discussed on this board a lot - I think it makes sense for both teams.

[BrianInPhilly]

Interesting trade & not a bad one. Personally though I think Ingram & Vucevic are not necessarily "winning guys" and I'd think Cleveland would see that. In my opinion, they should commit to Mobley full time at Center and get a more versatile 4' next to him like a John Collins/PJ Washington.

[jbk1234]

The Bulls trade has no chance. The Pelicans trade is dependent upon Ingram's willingness to extend at a reasonable number and the still needs a sweetener IMO.

[mg]

The Bulls trade has no chance. The Pelicans trade is dependent upon Ingram's willingness to extend at a reasonable number and the still needs a sweetener IMO.

Why would the Pels need to throw in a sweetener? I've got Ingram>Garland even with BI being an expiring after next season. In general big wings just have more value than small guards.

[ADMVP]

The Bulls trade has no chance. The Pelicans trade is dependent upon Ingram's willingness to extend at a reasonable number and the still needs a sweetener IMO.

Why would the Pels need to throw in a sweetener? I've got Ingram>Garland even with BI being an expiring after next season. In general big wings just have more value than small guards.

Every trade here puts very little value on BI and much more on any Cavs player. I personally think they owe value if it's a clean swap.

[jbk1234]

The Bulls trade has no chance. The Pelicans trade is dependent upon Ingram's willingness to extend at a reasonable number and the still needs a sweetener IMO.

Why would the Pels need to throw in a sweetener? I've got Ingram>Garland even with BI being an expiring after next season. In general big wings just have more value than small guards.

Every trade here puts very little value on BI and much more on any Cavs player. I personally think they owe value if it's a clean swap.

I think Ingram's value is heavily dependent upon whether he agrees to extend at a reasonable number. If he doesn't agree to extend, it's rental value. If he'll only sign a max extension, I suspect his trade market is going to be limiting to rental value.

[ChettheJet]

Cavs extend Mobley so what do they need with Vucevic? In fact why in the heck do the CAVS want 3 guys from the Bulls who finished way behind them?

Excellent for the Bulls if they catch the other teams sleeping. Two guards out one much better 3 pt shooter coming in.

Resign Drummond to play more behind Allen than he did plus Allen can get some backup 4 minutes as twin towers.

[drosestruts]

Cavs extend Mobley so what do they need with Vucevic?

Because while he projects as a future 5, Mobley's best position right now is still at the 4. The Cavs struggled on the boards vs Orlando and again vs Boston. Vucevic is still a good rebounder. As Mobley continues to grow into becoming a full-time 5, you have Vuc to bridge that gap for 2 years.

In fact why in the heck do the CAVS want 3 guys from the Bulls who finished way behind them?

Are you suggesting that individual players from teams with worse records have nothing to offer to teams with better records? If so Dallas must really be struggling with DJJ, PJ Washington, and Gafford - they all came from worse teams so there's no way they could fit well in a new environment and make positive contributions.

Excellent for the Bulls if they catch the other teams sleeping. Two guards out one much better 3 pt shooter coming in.

Resign Drummond to play more behind Allen than he did plus Allen can get some backup 4 minutes as twin towers.

Really swindling the Cavs by giving them a perfect backcourt complement to Donovan Mitchell. Got em.

Caruso and Ingram had a better 3P% than Strus this year.

[jbk1234]

Cavs extend Mobley so what do they need with Vucevic?

Because while he projects as a future 5, Mobley's best position right now is still at the 4. The Cavs struggled on the boards vs Orlando and again vs Boston. Vucevic is still a good rebounder. As Mobley continues to grow into becoming a full-time 5, you have Vuc to bridge that gap for 2 years.

In fact why in the heck do the CAVS want 3 guys from the Bulls who finished way behind them?

Are you suggesting that individual players from teams with worse records have nothing to offer to teams with better records? If so Dallas must really be struggling with DJJ, PJ Washington, and Gafford - they all came from worse teams so there's no way they could fit well in a new environment and make positive contributions.

Excellent for the Bulls if they catch the other teams sleeping. Two guards out one much better 3 pt shooter coming in.

Resign Drummond to play more behind Allen than he did plus Allen can get some backup 4 minutes as twin towers.

Really swindling the Cavs by giving them a perfect backcourt complement to Donovan Mitchell. Got em.

Caruso and Ingram had a better 3P% than Strus this year.

Strus is a better two-way option next to Mitchell than either guard we're getting.

[drosestruts]

Cavs extend Mobley so what do they need with Vucevic?

Because while he projects as a future 5, Mobley's best position right now is still at the 4. The Cavs struggled on the boards vs Orlando and again vs Boston. Vucevic is still a good rebounder. As Mobley continues to grow into becoming a full-time 5, you have Vuc to bridge that gap for 2 years.

In fact why in the heck do the CAVS want 3 guys from the Bulls who finished way behind them?

Are you suggesting that individual players from teams with worse records have nothing to offer to teams with better records? If so Dallas must really be struggling with DJJ, PJ Washington, and Gafford - they all came from worse teams so there's no way they could fit well in a new environment and make positive contributions.

Excellent for the Bulls if they catch the other teams sleeping. Two guards out one much better 3 pt shooter coming in.

Resign Drummond to play more behind Allen than he did plus Allen can get some backup 4 minutes as twin towers.

Really swindling the Cavs by giving them a perfect backcourt complement to Donovan Mitchell. Got em.

Caruso and Ingram had a better 3P% than Strus this year.

Strus is a better two-way option next to Mitchell than either guard we're getting.

Can you expand on why you like Strus more than Caruso?

From my view - Strus is a for more inefficient offensive player while being a worse defender. I'm actually having a difficult time understanding what someone would like more about Strus.

[jbk1234]

Because while he projects as a future 5, Mobley's best position right now is still at the 4. The Cavs struggled on the boards vs Orlando and again vs Boston. Vucevic is still a good rebounder. As Mobley continues to grow into becoming a full-time 5, you have Vuc to bridge that gap for 2 years.




Are you suggesting that individual players from teams with worse records have nothing to offer to teams with better records? If so Dallas must really be struggling with DJJ, PJ Washington, and Gafford - they all came from worse teams so there's no way they could fit well in a new environment and make positive contributions.




Really swindling the Cavs by giving them a perfect backcourt complement to Donovan Mitchell. Got em.

Caruso and Ingram had a better 3P% than Strus this year.

Strus is a better two-way option next to Mitchell than either guard we're getting.

Can you expand on why you like Strus more than Caruso?

From my view - Strus is a for more inefficient offensive player while being a worse defender. I'm actually having a difficult time understanding what someone would like more about Strus.

Sure, Caruso takes far fewer 3pa per game. His career average is only 2.6 per game. So although his career average is 38%, and Strus is at 36%, Strus takes almost 3 times as many. Strus is also 2 years younger and locked up on a team-friendly deal.

[jbk1234]

Because while he projects as a future 5, Mobley's best position right now is still at the 4. The Cavs struggled on the boards vs Orlando and again vs Boston. Vucevic is still a good rebounder. As Mobley continues to grow into becoming a full-time 5, you have Vuc to bridge that gap for 2 years.




Are you suggesting that individual players from teams with worse records have nothing to offer to teams with better records? If so Dallas must really be struggling with DJJ, PJ Washington, and Gafford - they all came from worse teams so there's no way they could fit well in a new environment and make positive contributions.




Really swindling the Cavs by giving them a perfect backcourt complement to Donovan Mitchell. Got em.

Caruso and Ingram had a better 3P% than Strus this year.

Strus is a better two-way option next to Mitchell than either guard we're getting.

Can you expand on why you like Strus more than Caruso?

From my view - Strus is a for more inefficient offensive player while being a worse defender. I'm actually having a difficult time understanding what someone would like more about Strus.

Sure, Caruso takes far fewer 3pa per game. His career average is only 2.6 per game. So although his career average is 38%, and Strus is at 36%, Strus takes almost 3 times as many. Strus is also 2 years younger and locked up on a team-friendly deal.

[drosestruts]

Strus is a better two-way option next to Mitchell than either guard we're getting.

Can you expand on why you like Strus more than Caruso?

From my view - Strus is a for more inefficient offensive player while being a worse defender. I'm actually having a difficult time understanding what someone would like more about Strus.

Sure, Caruso takes far fewer 3pa per game. His career average is only 2.6 per game. So although his career average is 38%, and Strus is at 36%, Strus takes almost 3 times as many. Strus is also 2 years younger and locked up on a team-friendly deal.

Very fair point on the contracts - Caruso is due for a new one soon and I imagine it will be for more than Strus makes.

On the 3p% I feel Caruso has come a long way and career numbers don't capture what the current reality is, last season per game both players were:

Caruso: 40% on 5 attempts per game

Strus: 35% on 7 attempts

So Caruso is improving in both efficiency and volume while Strus already seems to be sliding from their respective career averages.

Strus, in my eyes, could easily have a bounce-back year in terms of shooting. However, I don't see a scenario in which he offers comparable defense to Caruso.

[jbk1234]

Can you expand on why you like Strus more than Caruso?

From my view - Strus is a for more inefficient offensive player while being a worse defender. I'm actually having a difficult time understanding what someone would like more about Strus.

Sure, Caruso takes far fewer 3pa per game. His career average is only 2.6 per game. So although his career average is 38%, and Strus is at 36%, Strus takes almost 3 times as many. Strus is also 2 years younger and locked up on a team-friendly deal.

Very fair point on the contracts - Caruso is due for a new one soon and I imagine it will be for more than Strus makes.

On the 3p% I feel Caruso has come a long way and career numbers don't capture what the current reality is, last season per game both players were:

Caruso: 40% on 5 attempts per game

Strus: 35% on 7 attempts

So Caruso is improving in both efficiency and volume while Strus already seems to be sliding from their respective career averages.

Strus, in my eyes, could easily have a bounce-back year in terms of shooting. However, I don't see a scenario in which he offers comparable defense to Caruso.

Other posters are willing to base their entire evaluation upon the latest season of performance when there's an entire career's worth of data to review. I am not. In any event, even if you had Caruso as slightly ahead of Strus, Carter is just a guy who eat minutes IMO, and Allen has way more value on his contract than Vuc. It's not close.

There are reportedly multiple teams who want Allen. This isn’t a bidding war offer, it's a let's find these guys a new home offer.

[drosestruts]

Sure, Caruso takes far fewer 3pa per game. His career average is only 2.6 per game. So although his career average is 38%, and Strus is at 36%, Strus takes almost 3 times as many. Strus is also 2 years younger and locked up on a team-friendly deal.

Very fair point on the contracts - Caruso is due for a new one soon and I imagine it will be for more than Strus makes.

On the 3p% I feel Caruso has come a long way and career numbers don't capture what the current reality is, last season per game both players were:

Caruso: 40% on 5 attempts per game

Strus: 35% on 7 attempts

So Caruso is improving in both efficiency and volume while Strus already seems to be sliding from their respective career averages.

Strus, in my eyes, could easily have a bounce-back year in terms of shooting. However, I don't see a scenario in which he offers comparable defense to Caruso.

Other posters are willing to base their entire evaluation upon the latest season of performance when there's an entire career's worth of data to review. I am not. In any event, even if you had Caruso as slightly ahead of Strus, Carter is just a guy who eat minutes IMO, and Allen has way more value on his contract than Vuc. It's not close.

There are reportedly multiple teams who want Allen. This isn’t a bidding war offer, it's a let's find these guys a new home offer.

Do you base your evaluations on whole careers and not just the most recent seasons or just when it's convenient for you?

Because from a career standpoint - Vuc is better than Allen.

But I would not make the argument that Vuc is better than Allen now, based on recent performances.

Also I don't really get the contract point? They make the same amount of money

I too have read multiple teams being interested in Allen and am very curious to see what happens with the Cavs in general this offseason - I do think they still need a 5 if moving Allen and that Mobley is not ready to be a full-time 5 yet.

Will be interesting to see how they balance finding a trade for the best value and finding a trade the produces that best roster.

Should be a fun offseason in Cleveland. Hope you guys can extend Mitchell and find some complementary pieces to build around him.

[jbk1234]

Very fair point on the contracts - Caruso is due for a new one soon and I imagine it will be for more than Strus makes.

On the 3p% I feel Caruso has come a long way and career numbers don't capture what the current reality is, last season per game both players were:

Caruso: 40% on 5 attempts per game

Strus: 35% on 7 attempts

So Caruso is improving in both efficiency and volume while Strus already seems to be sliding from their respective career averages.

Strus, in my eyes, could easily have a bounce-back year in terms of shooting. However, I don't see a scenario in which he offers comparable defense to Caruso.

Other posters are willing to base their entire evaluation upon the latest season of performance when there's an entire career's worth of data to review. I am not. In any event, even if you had Caruso as slightly ahead of Strus, Carter is just a guy who eat minutes IMO, and Allen has way more value on his contract than Vuc. It's not close.

There are reportedly multiple teams who want Allen. This isn’t a bidding war offer, it's a let's find these guys a new home offer.

Do you base your evaluations on whole careers and not just the most recent seasons or just when it's convenient for you?

Because from a career standpoint - Vuc is better than Allen.

But I would not make the argument that Vuc is better than Allen now, based on recent performances.

Also I don't really get the contract point? They make the same amount of money

I too have read multiple teams being interested in Allen and am very curious to see what happens with the Cavs in general this offseason - I do think they still need a 5 if moving Allen and that Mobley is not ready to be a full-time 5 yet.

Will be interesting to see how they balance finding a trade for the best value and finding a trade the produces that best roster.

Should be a fun offseason in Cleveland. Hope you guys can extend Mitchell and find some complementary pieces to build around him.

It's based on a multitude of factors. How much of an outlier is the most recent season, are their exteneral factors such as injury or change in personnel, the age of player, and most importantly, is it part of a multi-season trend?