RealGM

Ill offer this idea for:
-Detroit to add a starting calibre 4 and trade down to add more youth.
-Utah trades up while clearing out more cap space

To Detroit
-#10 pick
-#29 pick
-John Collins (1 year, $26.6 million plus P.O.)

To Utah
-#5 pick

Why?
-Pistons add a starting calibre 4 who is 26 to help bolster their frontcourt without over investing in a UFA or a RFA to keep flexibility open. They get an additional 1st to add to existing core

Cunningham/Ivey/Sasser
FA?/Grimes/FA?
Thompson/Fontecchio?/#29
Collins/#10/FA?
Duren/Stewart/FA?

-Jazz move ob from having both Collins and Markannen as they create more cap flexibility and move up in draft

Sexton/Dunn?/Lewis?
Clarkson/George/FA?
FA?/#5?/FA?
Markannen/Hendricks/Bazley?
Kessler/FA?/#32

Collins is neutral value at best on his current contract, and there's no way #29 gets you from #10 to #5.

This is valuing Collins like a mid first. He should not have mid 1st value. A deal that is Collins/ #29 for nothing is logical. A deal that is #10/future picks for #5 is logical if Utah loves a guy and Detroit doesn't. But those are separate concepts really.

gswhoops wrote:Collins is neutral value at best on his current contract, and there's no way #29 gets you from #10 to #5.

I think Collins is worth a picks between #23-30 based on his production, age, positional scarcity, and his contract amount/remaining term.

In a vacuum You would say #5 = #10 + #15 +#29. I guess in the draft I put it into greater context in terms of is there really that much difference between #5 and #10

Ultimately, Im probably overvaluing Collins as this likely needs another future protected 1st from Utah to Detroit.

Collins still isn't a good player. His numbers this year overrate his actual value because he could only get those numbers while playing out-of-position at center where he was a defensive liability. If you put him at forward - the only position where he is defensively tenable - his production is lousy and he demonstrates that he is a negative value player relative to his contract.

Furthermore, Detroit of all teams has the worst ecosystem for a guy like Collins. Detroit needs exceptional shooting from their 4 to offset the fact that Ausar and Duren can't shoot at all.

Bentley1225 wrote:

gswhoops wrote:Collins is neutral value at best on his current contract, and there's no way #29 gets you from #10 to #5.

I think Collins is worth a picks between #23-30 based on his production, age, positional scarcity, and his contract amount/remaining term.

In a vacuum You would say #5 = #10 + #15 +#29. I guess in the draft I put it into greater context in terms of is there really that much difference between #5 and #10

Ultimately, Im probably overvaluing Collins as this likely needs another future protected 1st from Utah to Detroit.

It would be better for Detroit to get a 2025 pick out of this deal. That and #10 works.

Bentley1225 wrote:Ill offer this idea for:
-Detroit to add a starting calibre 4 and trade down to add more youth.
-Utah trades up while clearing out more cap space

To Detroit
-#10 pick
-#29 pick
-John Collins (1 year, $26.6 million plus P.O.)

To Utah
-#5 pick

2

I do the deal (unless an unforeseen fall of a wanted player- Clingan, Risacher, Sarr). #5 gets you Buzelis. #10 gets you Holland, possibly Knecht. #29 gets you a cheap run at Holmes, Smith, Klintman.

For me Holland and Buzelis are a toss-up.

theBigLip wrote:

Bentley1225 wrote:

gswhoops wrote:Collins is neutral value at best on his current contract, and there's no way #29 gets you from #10 to #5.

I think Collins is worth a picks between #23-30 based on his production, age, positional scarcity, and his contract amount/remaining term.

In a vacuum You would say #5 = #10 + #15 +#29. I guess in the draft I put it into greater context in terms of is there really that much difference between #5 and #10

Ultimately, Im probably overvaluing Collins as this likely needs another future protected 1st from Utah to Detroit.

It would be better for Detroit to get a 2025 pick out of this deal. That and #10 works.

Add the Cleveland 2025 first round pick and it’s a deal….

I think that this trade doesn’t work. I feel that there is a talent drop from 5 to 10. In my eyes, it is an impactful one. MB, Redd, and Clingy/Castle are all good fits for Detroit. I don’t see a drop from 5 to 10 for that package. I view taking on Collins as a negative and a bottom pick in a weak draft not enough to move the gap.

Bentley1225 wrote:

gswhoops wrote:Collins is neutral value at best on his current contract, and there's no way #29 gets you from #10 to #5.

I think Collins is worth a picks between #23-30 based on his production, age, positional scarcity, and his contract amount/remaining term.

In a vacuum You would say #5 = #10 + #15 +#29. I guess in the draft I put it into greater context in terms of is there really that much difference between #5 and #10

Ultimately, Im probably overvaluing Collins as this likely needs another future protected 1st from Utah to Detroit.

He's not. He has negative trade value. The Jazz were supposed to be his rebuilding/reclamation opportunity and he got moved to bench.

jbk1234 wrote:

Bentley1225 wrote:

gswhoops wrote:Collins is neutral value at best on his current contract, and there's no way #29 gets you from #10 to #5.

I think Collins is worth a picks between #23-30 based on his production, age, positional scarcity, and his contract amount/remaining term.

In a vacuum You would say #5 = #10 + #15 +#29. I guess in the draft I put it into greater context in terms of is there really that much difference between #5 and #10

Ultimately, Im probably overvaluing Collins as this likely needs another future protected 1st from Utah to Detroit.

He's not. He has negative trade value. The Jazz were supposed to be his rebuilding/reclamation opportunity and he got moved to bench.

Bench? He started 66 of the 68 games he played.

SkyHook wrote:

jbk1234 wrote:

Bentley1225 wrote:
I think Collins is worth a picks between #23-30 based on his production, age, positional scarcity, and his contract amount/remaining term.

In a vacuum You would say #5 = #10 + #15 +#29. I guess in the draft I put it into greater context in terms of is there really that much difference between #5 and #10

Ultimately, Im probably overvaluing Collins as this likely needs another future protected 1st from Utah to Detroit.

He's not. He has negative trade value. The Jazz were supposed to be his rebuilding/reclamation opportunity and he got moved to bench.

Bench? He started 66 of the 68 games he played.

I thought most of his minutes came with the 2nd unit as a backup 5.

Collins does not have positive value in the least

jbk1234 wrote:

Bentley1225 wrote:

gswhoops wrote:Collins is neutral value at best on his current contract, and there's no way #29 gets you from #10 to #5.

I think Collins is worth a picks between #23-30 based on his production, age, positional scarcity, and his contract amount/remaining term.

In a vacuum You would say #5 = #10 + #15 +#29. I guess in the draft I put it into greater context in terms of is there really that much difference between #5 and #10

Ultimately, Im probably overvaluing Collins as this likely needs another future protected 1st from Utah to Detroit.

He's not. He has negative trade value. The Jazz were supposed to be his rebuilding/reclamation opportunity and he got moved to bench.

I won't disagree that his trade value is negative but he started 66 of 68 games and the 2 he didn't were (and J think I am remembering correctly) when he was coming back from an injury.

I would offer 10/Kessler to move up, but I wouldn't include any future firsts to move up unless it was into the top 4 or our specific target dropped to 5. Even then it would need to be a "worst of" situation, which would understandably be untenable for Detroit. This just is not s draft to spend a ton of assets moving up.

nate33 wrote:Collins still isn't a good player. His numbers this year overrate his actual value because he could only get those numbers while playing out-of-position at center where he was a defensive liability. If you put him at forward - the only position where he is defensively tenable - his production is lousy and he demonstrates that he is a negative value player relative to his contract.

Furthermore, Detroit of all teams has the worst ecosystem for a guy like Collins. Detroit needs exceptional shooting from their 4 to offset the fact that Ausar and Duren can't shoot at all.

This is just a really bad interpretation of what happened in Utah. Collins is good when he js not expected to put the ball on the floor and self create. With he, Kessler, and Lauri starting together and no Conley he had to do that which tanked our offense because it is a domino effect where missing too much self creation makes it harder for everyone. It is a roster construction issue, but also something to be aware of with Collins. He's a fine player, not a bad one. I know you think he's a bad player and have said it many, many times, but you are just wrong. Is he bad relative to his contract? Absolutely, but he's a solid MLE to just above caliber guy.

I'm not a Pistons fan and I could be out of line... but his GM's statements make me think that he is in no hurry and wants to build with his own label. I think that starts with selecting his favorite youngster as high as possible. (I'll say C.Williams) and it's more likely they'll try to go up than down (Maybe by attaching a bunch of SRP??).. a clue could be THJ's rumored trade into space in exchange for some asset to be confirmed.

It would take the #29 or more to move collins. He's a net negative value. So that's detroit just gifting utah #5 for #10. This is missing a first rounder headed to detroit.

babyjax13 wrote:

nate33 wrote:Collins still isn't a good player. His numbers this year overrate his actual value because he could only get those numbers while playing out-of-position at center where he was a defensive liability. If you put him at forward - the only position where he is defensively tenable - his production is lousy and he demonstrates that he is a negative value player relative to his contract.

Furthermore, Detroit of all teams has the worst ecosystem for a guy like Collins. Detroit needs exceptional shooting from their 4 to offset the fact that Ausar and Duren can't shoot at all.

This is just a really bad interpretation of what happened in Utah. Collins is good when he js not expected to put the ball on the floor and self create. With he, Kessler, and Lauri starting together and no Conley he had to do that which tanked our offense because it is a domino effect where missing too much self creation makes it harder for everyone. It is a roster construction issue, but also something to be aware of with Collins. He's a fine player, not a bad one. I know you think he's a bad player and have said it many, many times, but you are just wrong. Is he bad relative to his contract? Absolutely, but he's a solid MLE to just above caliber guy.

I didn't mean to say that Collins is utterly worthless. When I said negative value, I meant that he is worth less than his contract. I agree that Collins at roughly MLE money is probably about fair. (Maybe more like $10-12M rather than the full MLE, but we are splitting hairs.) My primary point is, he definitely has significantly negative value at his current salary of $27M a year. So this trade proposal is DOA. #10 + #29 by itself doesn't get you #5, so throwing in Collins doesn't help.

I'd pass on Kessler/10 for 5