RealGM

Detroit: Anfernee Simons
Washington: Jaden Ivey
Portland: 2029 1st Rd Pick (returned for Advja trade)

Why for Detroit: get a better long term fit for Cade than Ivey

Why for Washington: buy low Ivey

Why for Portland: move off Simons to clear backcourt minutes for Scoot/Sharpe as they continue the rebuild.

I went back and forth here on Corey Kispert going to from WAS to POR as part of the trade. Could also send Ivey to POR but I don’t like his long term fit with Scoot

I question the Detroit rational because I just don't see Anfernee Simons (all O, little or no D) as any kind of long-term fit with Cade. If anything, the first priority for the guard playing next to Cade is to be a good POA defender, and the second priority is to be able to contribute off the ball on offence -- and I don't think those are Simons' calling cards.

oldncreaky wrote:I question the Detroit rational because I just don't see Anfernee Simons (all O, little or no D) as any kind of long-term fit with Cade. If anything, the first priority for the guard playing next to Cade is to be a good POA defender, and the second priority is to be able to contribute off the ball on offence -- and I don't think those are Simons' calling cards.

Detroit would need elite front court defense and rim protection. Thompson/Holland have the makings of that kind of defensive combo on the front court - although one needs to develop a jump shot for this to work long term.

The idea seems to be that At least Simons can shoot (some might say that at most he can shoot), although he is a poor defensive player.

Ivey can’t shoot or defend.

JRoy wrote:The idea seems to be that At least Simons can shoot (some might say that at most he can shoot), although he is a poor defensive player.

Ivey can’t shoot or defend.

Yes. I don’t see Ivey/Cade as a long term fit, especially when you have Thompson and Holland on the roster. Ivey is probably the odd man out with 2 years of rookie control.

Offensively, I think Simons compliments Cade very nicely - and even if he’s not the long term backcourt mate with Cade - his game will help Cade reach his full potential. Maybe Cade can figure out how to become passable defensively as he has the size to guard both backcourt spots

I don’t see Simons as a long term piece with Portland as Scoot/Sharpe is the backcourt of the future. With Simons entering the last 2 years of his deal I see this as the apex of his value.

But I think this is the first Blazers trade I ever posted that JRoy didn’t outright decline.

R-DAWG wrote:But I think this is the first Blazers trade I ever posted that JRoy didn’t outright decline.

read re-read

R-DAWG wrote:

JRoy wrote:The idea seems to be that At least Simons can shoot (some might say that at most he can shoot), although he is a poor defensive player.

Ivey can’t shoot or defend.

Yes. I don’t see Ivey/Cade as a long term fit, especially when you have Thompson and Holland on the roster. Ivey is probably the odd man out with 2 years of rookie control.

Offensively, I think Simons compliments Cade very nicely - and even if he’s not the long term backcourt mate with Cade - his game will help Cade reach his full potential. Maybe Cade can figure out how to become passable defensively as he has the size to guard both backcourt spots

I don’t see Simons as a long term piece with Portland as Scoot/Sharpe is the backcourt of the future. With Simons entering the last 2 years of his deal I see this as the apex of his value.

But I think this is the first Blazers trade I ever posted that JRoy didn’t outright decline.

I think the idea was a good effort

as a Blazer fan, I'd say yes to this trade. But I'm a Blazer fan with a lower than normal opinion of Simons. But getting that pick back + dropping 26M in payroll + a 26M TPE (is there a max TPE) is a good move for Portland IMO

R-DAWG wrote:

JRoy wrote:The idea seems to be that At least Simons can shoot (some might say that at most he can shoot), although he is a poor defensive player.

Ivey can’t shoot or defend.

Yes. I don’t see Ivey/Cade as a long term fit, especially when you have Thompson and Holland on the roster. Ivey is probably the odd man out with 2 years of rookie control.

Offensively, I think Simons compliments Cade very nicely - and even if he’s not the long term backcourt mate with Cade - his game will help Cade reach his full potential. Maybe Cade can figure out how to become passable defensively as he has the size to guard both backcourt spots

I don’t see Simons as a long term piece with Portland as Scoot/Sharpe is the backcourt of the future. With Simons entering the last 2 years of his deal I see this as the apex of his value.

But I think this is the first Blazers trade I ever posted that JRoy didn’t outright decline.

Love the idea if the value could be tweaked to mollify all parties.

It works for me as is, others may dissent.

JRoy wrote:

R-DAWG wrote:

JRoy wrote:The idea seems to be that At least Simons can shoot (some might say that at most he can shoot), although he is a poor defensive player.

Ivey can’t shoot or defend.

Yes. I don’t see Ivey/Cade as a long term fit, especially when you have Thompson and Holland on the roster. Ivey is probably the odd man out with 2 years of rookie control.

Offensively, I think Simons compliments Cade very nicely - and even if he’s not the long term backcourt mate with Cade - his game will help Cade reach his full potential. Maybe Cade can figure out how to become passable defensively as he has the size to guard both backcourt spots

I don’t see Simons as a long term piece with Portland as Scoot/Sharpe is the backcourt of the future. With Simons entering the last 2 years of his deal I see this as the apex of his value.

But I think this is the first Blazers trade I ever posted that JRoy didn’t outright decline.

Love the idea if the value could be tweaked to mollify all parties.

It works for me as is, others may dissent.

How would you tweak the value.

Do you need Kispert in the deal? If not, WAS needs to send out some outgoing salary.

JRoy wrote:The idea seems to be that At least Simons can shoot (some might say that at most he can shoot), although he is a poor defensive player.

Ivey can’t shoot or defend.

Ivey is not being paid 53+ million. Simons is a terrible fit in Detroit. People should find another team to unload his contract. He is not a bad player, just not what Detroit need, and Ivey being bad doesn't change that.

R-DAWG wrote:

oldncreaky wrote:I question the Detroit rational because I just don't see Anfernee Simons (all O, little or no D) as any kind of long-term fit with Cade. If anything, the first priority for the guard playing next to Cade is to be a good POA defender, and the second priority is to be able to contribute off the ball on offence -- and I don't think those are Simons' calling cards.

Detroit would need elite front court defense and rim protection. Thompson/Holland have the makings of that kind of defensive combo on the front court - although one needs to develop a jump shot for this to work long term.

There was a thread on the Pistons board about how many guys would still be around when we eventually start winning again. (It's bound to happen eventually, isn't it?) It was bleak reading. We've got a ton of guys who can really only contribute on one end of the court. I'm not really interested in adding another 1-way player, at a high salary to boot, to that mix as we embark on the start of yet another rebuild.

vege wrote:

JRoy wrote:The idea seems to be that At least Simons can shoot (some might say that at most he can shoot), although he is a poor defensive player.

Ivey can’t shoot or defend.

Ivey is not being paid 53+ million. Simons is a terrible fit in Detroit. People should find another team to unload his contract. He is not a bad player, just not what Detroit need, and Ivey being bad doesn't change that.

DET needs shooting badly. Simons is an excellent 3 point shooter on high volume. How does that not address DETs biggest weakness.

The defense is an issue. Do you expect a terrific 3 and d option to sign in DET or be available for assets DET would readily move?

We have Harris, Hardaway Jr., Beasley, Sasser, and (soon) Fontecchio. The need for shooting is no longer that pronounced.

JRoy wrote:

vege wrote:

JRoy wrote:The idea seems to be that At least Simons can shoot (some might say that at most he can shoot), although he is a poor defensive player.

Ivey can’t shoot or defend.

Ivey is not being paid 53+ million. Simons is a terrible fit in Detroit. People should find another team to unload his contract. He is not a bad player, just not what Detroit need, and Ivey being bad doesn't change that.

DET needs shooting badly. Simons is an excellent 3 point shooter on high volume. How does that not address DETs biggest weakness.

The defense is an issue. Do you expect a terrific 3 and d option to sign in DET or be available for assets DET would readily move?

Defense is a WAYYY bigger issue than shooting at this point. Simons is somehow a downgrade defensively. Pretty much a non-starter with Cade. Another key issue with the Pistons is health, and Ivey is one of the only guys that actually plays most nights, while Simons is good for 20-30 games missed per year. Easy pass for me.

JRoy wrote:

vege wrote:

JRoy wrote:The idea seems to be that At least Simons can shoot (some might say that at most he can shoot), although he is a poor defensive player.

Ivey can’t shoot or defend.

Ivey is not being paid 53+ million. Simons is a terrible fit in Detroit. People should find another team to unload his contract. He is not a bad player, just not what Detroit need, and Ivey being bad doesn't change that.

DET needs shooting badly. Simons is an excellent 3 point shooter on high volume. How does that not address DETs biggest weakness.

The defense is an issue. Do you expect a terrific 3 and d option to sign in DET or be available for assets DET would readily move?

We added a bunch of shooters and none of them cost us 53+ million, there are other ways to address an issue without creating a bigger one (cap hell)

vege wrote:

JRoy wrote:

vege wrote:
Ivey is not being paid 53+ million. Simons is a terrible fit in Detroit. People should find another team to unload his contract. He is not a bad player, just not what Detroit need, and Ivey being bad doesn't change that.

DET needs shooting badly. Simons is an excellent 3 point shooter on high volume. How does that not address DETs biggest weakness.

The defense is an issue. Do you expect a terrific 3 and d option to sign in DET or be available for assets DET would readily move?

We added a bunch of shooters and none of them cost us 53+ million, there are other ways to address an issue without creating a bigger one (cap hell)

Detroit is a long way away from cap hell. They are about 45MM below the cap next year factoring in a 25% max for Cade with 9 players on the roster - not including their 2025 FRP and Fontechio.

The difference between Simons and Ivey next year is about 17.5mm. Factor in a pick around number 7 and your looking at a low 20mm cap space number. Wendell Moore jr has a non guaranteed 4.5mm so releasing him and signing Fontechio should leave Detroit around 20mm in space

After next season both Tobias and Simons are off the books.

R-DAWG wrote:

vege wrote:

JRoy wrote:
DET needs shooting badly. Simons is an excellent 3 point shooter on high volume. How does that not address DETs biggest weakness.

The defense is an issue. Do you expect a terrific 3 and d option to sign in DET or be available for assets DET would readily move?

We added a bunch of shooters and none of them cost us 53+ million, there are other ways to address an issue without creating a bigger one (cap hell)

Detroit is a long way away from cap hell. They are about 45MM below the cap next year factoring in a 25% max for Cade with 9 players on the roster - not including their 2025 FRP and Fontechio.

The difference between Simons and Ivey next year is about 17.5mm. Factor in a pick around number 7 and your looking at a low 20mm cap space number. Wendell Moore jr has a non guaranteed 4.5mm so releasing him and signing Fontechio should leave Detroit around 20mm in space

After next season both Tobias and Simons are off the books.

You start misshandling your cap and you'll be in cap hell and winning 20 games per season in no time.

Just because Ivey is bad, doesn't mean Detroit should turn him into 53 million of a player that's a bad fit because he plays 0 defense.

Think harder and find another team to dump his 53 million, a team that makes sense.

vege wrote:

R-DAWG wrote:

vege wrote:
We added a bunch of shooters and none of them cost us 53+ million, there are other ways to address an issue without creating a bigger one (cap hell)

Detroit is a long way away from cap hell. They are about 45MM below the cap next year factoring in a 25% max for Cade with 9 players on the roster - not including their 2025 FRP and Fontechio.

The difference between Simons and Ivey next year is about 17.5mm. Factor in a pick around number 7 and your looking at a low 20mm cap space number. Wendell Moore jr has a non guaranteed 4.5mm so releasing him and signing Fontechio should leave Detroit around 20mm in space

After next season both Tobias and Simons are off the books.

You start misshandling your cap and you'll be in cap hell and winning 20 games per season in no time.

Just because Ivey is bad, doesn't mean Detroit should turn him into 53 million of a player that's a bad fit because he plays 0 defense.

Think harder and find another team to dump his 53 million, a team that makes sense.

Sorry, I don’t follow your logic. Simons contract does nothing to hurt the pistons long term cap situation.

Cap space for this offseason is no longer needed, so you’re sacrificing 17.5mm of future space to get another Tobias Harris type of player on your roster.

Right now if I’m Detroit I’m investing in seeing if (a) Cade can develop into an elite offensive player and (b) can Thompson/Holland give you enough spacing to be a long term fit. In that regard- Simons offensive skill set and spacing helps tremendously. Once I figure out if I have something to build around with Cade I can worry about defense. Or I can tear it down.

I don't really see a deal like this between Washington, Detroit and Portland working out because all 3 of these teams are in the same general point in their rebuild cycle. They are still prioritizing finding stars and full-time starters and they aren't worried about depth yet.

Although the 3 pieces being discussed (Simons, Ivey, 2029 FRP) have similar value in the abstract, all 3 teams are probably more interested in the future pick than the current player because those current players do not look like they will pan out to be quality starters. As undersized SG's, both Ivey and Simons play suspect defense and neither are good enough on offense to be a primary option for a winning team. That puts them in 6th man territory rather than starter territory. I think all 3 teams would rather pass on a sure-thing 6th man caliber talent and instead opt for the boom/bust possibility of a mid-FRP.

I'm not saying Ivey and/or Simons aren't worth a mid FRP, I'm just saying that the trade partner needs to be a win-now team who would value a known 6th man caliber talent over a future pick with boom/bust potential. That trade partner is not Washington.

R-DAWG wrote:

vege wrote:

R-DAWG wrote:
Detroit is a long way away from cap hell. They are about 45MM below the cap next year factoring in a 25% max for Cade with 9 players on the roster - not including their 2025 FRP and Fontechio.

The difference between Simons and Ivey next year is about 17.5mm. Factor in a pick around number 7 and your looking at a low 20mm cap space number. Wendell Moore jr has a non guaranteed 4.5mm so releasing him and signing Fontechio should leave Detroit around 20mm in space

After next season both Tobias and Simons are off the books.

You start misshandling your cap and you'll be in cap hell and winning 20 games per season in no time.

Just because Ivey is bad, doesn't mean Detroit should turn him into 53 million of a player that's a bad fit because he plays 0 defense.

Think harder and find another team to dump his 53 million, a team that makes sense.

Sorry, I don’t follow your logic. Simons contract does nothing to hurt the pistons long term cap situation.

Cap space for this offseason is no longer needed, so you’re sacrificing 17.5mm of future space to get another Tobias Harris type of player on your roster.

Right now if I’m Detroit I’m investing in seeing if (a) Cade can develop into an elite offensive player and (b) can Thompson/Holland give you enough spacing to be a long term fit. In that regard- Simons offensive skill set and spacing helps tremendously. Once I figure out if I have something to build around with Cade I can worry about defense. Or I can tear it down.

Tobias and Simons are not comparable players at all. Have you ever watched them play? One is a good offensive player and plays 0 defense, he is among the worst defenders in the league (arguably the worst). The other is a solid all around player. He is not great, but he is average or above average at pretty much everything he does, including defense, he also plays a position of need for Detroit.

Detroit need a low usage, good defender and good shooter next to Cade, Simons is NONE of that. He is arguably the worst defender in the league, he have a below average TS% and he is a little above average 3 point shooter. He is a high usage, excellent creator player which makes him an excellent offensive player, however that is NOT what Cade need next to him. It would be more (Please Use More Appropriate Word) to pay Cade and Simons combined that kind of money than it was to pay Dame and CJ the money Portland paid in the past.

How many times do I have to say for you to understand? Simons is a fine player, he is not what Detroit need, He is very expensive and plays 0 defense. Ivey plays 0 defense, but he is cheap, and it's not like we would want to trade for Ivey if he wasn't in Detroit anyways. Simons is UNWANTED money for Detroit.

You have a lot of Detroit fans saying that in this thread, so stop this pointless argument please, you're embarrassing yourself. Simons to Detroit, even for free should be a no go, he is a terrible fit, just like he is a terrible fit in Portland.