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Wolves out Nickeil Alexander-Walker
Wolves in Andrew Nembhard


Pacers out Andrew Nembhard
Pacers in Nickeil Alexander-Walker

Why for the Wolves. Assuming TSJ is capable of playing the NAW minutes, Wolves get something for NAW instead of losing him in free agency. Wolves are shallow in PG depth and Nembhad/Dillingham as a future PG1/PG2 is a good rotation.

Why for the Pacers. Having both Hali and TJ, the Pacers are not lacking in PG depth. NAW is a year or two older than Nembhard but is a better defender, better floor spacer, and more experienced NBA player. Downside is that the Pacers have to resign NAW, but they will have his bird rights and the inside track on doing so. Nembhard would be significantly cheaper in 25-26, but by 26-27 when Nembhard is a RFA he might end up costing more.

Overall NAW is the better player, but Nembhard is the better contract.

I don’t see how NAW is a better player. But even if they were equal, Minn owes value for the ability to make him a RFA in 12 months. Usually when good GM’s have that opportunity with good players, it works out really well for the team.

NAW has really worked on his game though and has full bird rights (I believe) so Minn should be happy to keep him.

Pacers say no. While Nembhard isn't a perfect fit with Hali and Mathurin, they should be able to get *a lot* more for him than just NAW (a solid roleplayer on an expiring, but nothing special). I bet the Magic would offer an expiring and a couple of 1sts for example.

jayjaysee wrote:I don’t see how NAW is a better player. But even if they were equal, Minn owes value for the ability to make him a RFA in 12 months. Usually when good GM’s have that opportunity with good players, it works out really well for the team.

NAW has really worked on his game though and has full bird rights (I believe) so Minn should be happy to keep him.

With us it’s more a salary issue and having a rookie Terrance Shannon Jr, who looks NBA ready and hopefully could make NAW redundant. We need a PG, you don’t. So it is as much a fit trade as anything.

Regarding player talent. NAW was not eligible for 2nd team all defense as he played too many games under 20 mins despite averaging 23.4 MPG and playing in 82 games. NAW is a defensive specialist who often subbed in for Jaden McDaniels and contributed to the number 1 defense in the NBA. When he played with Jaden they were as disruptive a duo as you will see in the NBA. NAW stat line was 8/2/2.5 in 23.4 MPG on 43.9/39.1/80 shooting splits. Nembhards numbers were 9.2/2.1/4.2 in 25 MPG on
49.8/35.7/80.4 shooting splits. NAW has higher volume from distance and a higher EFG at 56% compared to Nembhards 55.7%. NAW is a better defender and floor spacer but Nembhard is a better facilitator.

OutsidetheNBA wrote:Pacers say no. While Nembhard isn't a perfect fit with Hali and Mathurin, they should be able to get *a lot* more for him than just NAW (a solid roleplayer on an expiring, but nothing special). I bet the Magic would offer an expiring and a couple of 1sts for example.

My question to you is what is the value of a couple protected firsts vs a solid defensive specialist capable of guarding 1-3 now? If you’re lucky maybe you find a cheap defensive player who eventually helps, but you are looking to do big things now.

This is just nowhere near a consideration for Indy. At all. Even if you think that NAW is as good as Nembhard (which I wildly disagree), Indy can’t afford to have to pay NAW with the $25m+ salary NAW must surely be worth, if he’s as good as Nembhard.

winforlose wrote:

OutsidetheNBA wrote:Pacers say no. While Nembhard isn't a perfect fit with Hali and Mathurin, they should be able to get *a lot* more for him than just NAW (a solid roleplayer on an expiring, but nothing special). I bet the Magic would offer an expiring and a couple of 1sts for example.

My question to you is what is the value of a couple protected firsts vs a solid defensive specialist capable of guarding 1-3 now? If you’re lucky maybe you find a cheap defensive player who eventually helps, but you are looking to do big things now.

What role do you see NAW playing in Indy that isn’t already sufficiently covered by Nesmith and Sheppard? I guess he could platoon with Nesmith, but Mathurin will get minutes at the 2, as well, so there’s not a lot to go there. It’s a pretty tightly defined role there, when Indy has shown a desire, and need, to carry and play 3 PG’s, and Nembhard is a pretty dynamite two way PG. I think Indy would consider him a “blue chip type prospect” in trade and would expect a lot in trade value. Like, he’s maybe the centerpiece to a major consolidation trade this season? Even if you think NAW is a better defensive player, it’s not by much, and clearly, Nembhard’s offensive ability should make him much more valuable. Like, not in the same league of value.

Scoot McGroot wrote:This is just nowhere near a consideration for Indy. At all. Even if you think that NAW is as good as Nembhard (which I wildly disagree), Indy can’t afford to have to pay NAW with the $25m+ salary NAW must surely be worth, if he’s as good as Nembhard.

winforlose wrote:

OutsidetheNBA wrote:Pacers say no. While Nembhard isn't a perfect fit with Hali and Mathurin, they should be able to get *a lot* more for him than just NAW (a solid roleplayer on an expiring, but nothing special). I bet the Magic would offer an expiring and a couple of 1sts for example.

My question to you is what is the value of a couple protected firsts vs a solid defensive specialist capable of guarding 1-3 now? If you’re lucky maybe you find a cheap defensive player who eventually helps, but you are looking to do big things now.

What role do you see NAW playing in Indy that isn’t already sufficiently covered by Nesmith and Sheppard? I guess he could platoon with Nesmith, but Mathurin will get minutes at the 2, as well, so there’s not a lot to go there. It’s a pretty tightly defined role there, when Indy has shown a desire, and need, to carry and play 3 PG’s, and Nembhard is a pretty dynamite two way PG. I think Indy would consider him a “blue chip type prospect” in trade and would expect a lot in trade value. Like, he’s maybe the centerpiece to a major consolidation trade this season? Even if you think NAW is a better defensive player, it’s not by much, and clearly, Nembhard’s offensive ability should make him much more valuable. Like, not in the same league of value.

I think you're overselling the difference.

NAW seems to be clearly better right now in a slightly lower usage role.

Nembhard has more on-ball juice, but the idea he is a blue chip prospect doesn't seem to ring true historically.

He will be 25 this year. He is a far worse player than say Quickley at the same age, who was a blue chip prospect in the OG trade. He doesn't project to be high usage and lacks consistent scoring and shooting to be a high-impact offensive piece.

Sure, I can buy him being "better" than NAW--but that's like a Top 150-175-ish player in the NBA.

I don’t think Indy does this but NAW is a lot closer to Alex Caruso than he’s given credit for. He’d instantly be Indy’s best perimeter defender and I don’t think it’d be close. That’s not a slight at Indy’s guys, NAW is just really good. The drop off from Jaden McDaniels to him was always minimal with NAW even seeing better results in certain matchups.

Scoot McGroot wrote:This is just nowhere near a consideration for Indy. At all. Even if you think that NAW is as good as Nembhard (which I wildly disagree), Indy can’t afford to have to pay NAW with the $25m+ salary NAW must surely be worth, if he’s as good as Nembhard.

winforlose wrote:

OutsidetheNBA wrote:Pacers say no. While Nembhard isn't a perfect fit with Hali and Mathurin, they should be able to get *a lot* more for him than just NAW (a solid roleplayer on an expiring, but nothing special). I bet the Magic would offer an expiring and a couple of 1sts for example.

My question to you is what is the value of a couple protected firsts vs a solid defensive specialist capable of guarding 1-3 now? If you’re lucky maybe you find a cheap defensive player who eventually helps, but you are looking to do big things now.

What role do you see NAW playing in Indy that isn’t already sufficiently covered by Nesmith and Sheppard? I guess he could platoon with Nesmith, but Mathurin will get minutes at the 2, as well, so there’s not a lot to go there. It’s a pretty tightly defined role there, when Indy has shown a desire, and need, to carry and play 3 PG’s, and Nembhard is a pretty dynamite two way PG. I think Indy would consider him a “blue chip type prospect” in trade and would expect a lot in trade value. Like, he’s maybe the centerpiece to a major consolidation trade this season? Even if you think NAW is a better defensive player, it’s not by much, and clearly, Nembhard’s offensive ability should make him much more valuable. Like, not in the same league of value.

I could give a long response trying to explain what NAW is, why your wrong ect… I am not going to because you obviously aren’t looking for a discussion. I will leave you with 3 quick thoughts.

1. Nembhard needs to develop a consist 3 point shot before he can be called a blue chip. 9/2/4 isn’t exactly stellar in 25 minutes per game.

2. You clearly don’t know enough about NAW to speak intelligently.

3. If you think Nembhard is worth 25 million a year, you might lose him in RFA. Remember that Hali is making super max money, and Pascal isn’t cheap. Myles is gonna want a bag, and you still need to find ways to bring in more talent to help improve. There will be teams with cap space (not to mention expansion teams,) who will bid you up. With his bird rights you can of course match, but that means your tax bill will be very high and you will be second apron. Of course if Nembhard is actually a 10-15 million player standing 6’5 with a 6’6 wingspan and a sub average 3 ball, then you will be fine. Just food for thought.

winforlose wrote:

Scoot McGroot wrote:This is just nowhere near a consideration for Indy. At all. Even if you think that NAW is as good as Nembhard (which I wildly disagree), Indy can’t afford to have to pay NAW with the $25m+ salary NAW must surely be worth, if he’s as good as Nembhard.

winforlose wrote:
My question to you is what is the value of a couple protected firsts vs a solid defensive specialist capable of guarding 1-3 now? If you’re lucky maybe you find a cheap defensive player who eventually helps, but you are looking to do big things now.

What role do you see NAW playing in Indy that isn’t already sufficiently covered by Nesmith and Sheppard? I guess he could platoon with Nesmith, but Mathurin will get minutes at the 2, as well, so there’s not a lot to go there. It’s a pretty tightly defined role there, when Indy has shown a desire, and need, to carry and play 3 PG’s, and Nembhard is a pretty dynamite two way PG. I think Indy would consider him a “blue chip type prospect” in trade and would expect a lot in trade value. Like, he’s maybe the centerpiece to a major consolidation trade this season? Even if you think NAW is a better defensive player, it’s not by much, and clearly, Nembhard’s offensive ability should make him much more valuable. Like, not in the same league of value.

I could give a long response trying to explain what NAW is, why your wrong ect… I am not going to because you obviously aren’t looking for a discussion. I will leave you with 3 quick thoughts.

1. Nembhard needs to develop a consist 3 point shot before he can be called a blue chip. 9/2/4 isn’t exactly stellar in 25 minutes per game.

2. You clearly don’t know enough about NAW to speak intelligently.

3. If you think Nembhard is worth 25 million a year, you might lose him in RFA. Remember that Hali is making super max money, and Pascal isn’t cheap. Myles is gonna want a bag, and you still need to find ways to bring in more talent to help improve. There will be teams with cap space (not to mention expansion teams,) who will bid you up. With his bird rights you can of course match, but that means your tax bill will be very high and you will be second apron. Of course if Nembhard is actually a 10-15 million player standing 6’5 with a 6’6 wingspan and a sub average 3 ball, then you will be fine. Just food for thought.

Speaking intelligently....rofl. If Nembhard is about to be paid and Indy will have trouble signing him how in the hell is Indy going to afford NAW if he is supposedly more valuable and expiring this year?

Helsbyte wrote:

winforlose wrote:

Scoot McGroot wrote:This is just nowhere near a consideration for Indy. At all. Even if you think that NAW is as good as Nembhard (which I wildly disagree), Indy can’t afford to have to pay NAW with the $25m+ salary NAW must surely be worth, if he’s as good as Nembhard.



What role do you see NAW playing in Indy that isn’t already sufficiently covered by Nesmith and Sheppard? I guess he could platoon with Nesmith, but Mathurin will get minutes at the 2, as well, so there’s not a lot to go there. It’s a pretty tightly defined role there, when Indy has shown a desire, and need, to carry and play 3 PG’s, and Nembhard is a pretty dynamite two way PG. I think Indy would consider him a “blue chip type prospect” in trade and would expect a lot in trade value. Like, he’s maybe the centerpiece to a major consolidation trade this season? Even if you think NAW is a better defensive player, it’s not by much, and clearly, Nembhard’s offensive ability should make him much more valuable. Like, not in the same league of value.

I could give a long response trying to explain what NAW is, why your wrong ect… I am not going to because you obviously aren’t looking for a discussion. I will leave you with 3 quick thoughts.

1. Nembhard needs to develop a consist 3 point shot before he can be called a blue chip. 9/2/4 isn’t exactly stellar in 25 minutes per game.

2. You clearly don’t know enough about NAW to speak intelligently.

3. If you think Nembhard is worth 25 million a year, you might lose him in RFA. Remember that Hali is making super max money, and Pascal isn’t cheap. Myles is gonna want a bag, and you still need to find ways to bring in more talent to help improve. There will be teams with cap space (not to mention expansion teams,) who will bid you up. With his bird rights you can of course match, but that means your tax bill will be very high and you will be second apron. Of course if Nembhard is actually a 10-15 million player standing 6’5 with a 6’6 wingspan and a sub average 3 ball, then you will be fine. Just food for thought.

Speaking intelligently....rofl. If Nembhard is about to be paid and Indy will have trouble signing him how in the hell is Indy going to afford NAW if he is supposedly more valuable and expiring this year?

Did I say either was worth 25? Of course not. NAW probably gets 10-15. Just like Nembhard. Also Pacers would have bird rights and can afford both. You lose one cheap year for the better player overall. We lose the better player but get one cheap year with a player who fits our needs. I don’t see how that it isn’t clear, or why the concept is so offensive.

P.S both are role players and neither is blue chip. Sorry to say.

Scoot McGroot wrote:This is just nowhere near a consideration for Indy. At all. Even if you think that NAW is as good as Nembhard (which I wildly disagree), Indy can’t afford to have to pay NAW with the $25m+ salary NAW must surely be worth, if he’s as good as Nembhard.

winforlose wrote:

OutsidetheNBA wrote:Pacers say no. While Nembhard isn't a perfect fit with Hali and Mathurin, they should be able to get *a lot* more for him than just NAW (a solid roleplayer on an expiring, but nothing special). I bet the Magic would offer an expiring and a couple of 1sts for example.

My question to you is what is the value of a couple protected firsts vs a solid defensive specialist capable of guarding 1-3 now? If you’re lucky maybe you find a cheap defensive player who eventually helps, but you are looking to do big things now.

What role do you see NAW playing in Indy that isn’t already sufficiently covered by Nesmith and Sheppard? I guess he could platoon with Nesmith, but Mathurin will get minutes at the 2, as well, so there’s not a lot to go there. It’s a pretty tightly defined role there, when Indy has shown a desire, and need, to carry and play 3 PG’s, and Nembhard is a pretty dynamite two way PG. I think Indy would consider him a “blue chip type prospect” in trade and would expect a lot in trade value. Like, he’s maybe the centerpiece to a major consolidation trade this season? Even if you think NAW is a better defensive player, it’s not by much, and clearly, Nembhard’s offensive ability should make him much more valuable. Like, not in the same league of value.

I'm not going to argue that Indiana should do this deal, because I don't think they should, but NAW is a significantly better defender than Nembhard.

Worse offensively, sure, and I'm not saying Nembhard is necessarily bad on that end. But NAW is significantly better on that end and it's not close.

winforlose wrote:

Helsbyte wrote:

winforlose wrote:
I could give a long response trying to explain what NAW is, why your wrong ect… I am not going to because you obviously aren’t looking for a discussion. I will leave you with 3 quick thoughts.

1. Nembhard needs to develop a consist 3 point shot before he can be called a blue chip. 9/2/4 isn’t exactly stellar in 25 minutes per game.

2. You clearly don’t know enough about NAW to speak intelligently.

3. If you think Nembhard is worth 25 million a year, you might lose him in RFA. Remember that Hali is making super max money, and Pascal isn’t cheap. Myles is gonna want a bag, and you still need to find ways to bring in more talent to help improve. There will be teams with cap space (not to mention expansion teams,) who will bid you up. With his bird rights you can of course match, but that means your tax bill will be very high and you will be second apron. Of course if Nembhard is actually a 10-15 million player standing 6’5 with a 6’6 wingspan and a sub average 3 ball, then you will be fine. Just food for thought.

Speaking intelligently....rofl. If Nembhard is about to be paid and Indy will have trouble signing him how in the hell is Indy going to afford NAW if he is supposedly more valuable and expiring this year?

Did I say either was worth 25? Of course not. NAW probably gets 10-15. Just like Nembhard. Also Pacers would have bird rights and can afford both. You lose one cheap year for the better player overall. We lose the better player but get one cheap year with a player who fits our needs. I don’t see how that it isn’t clear, or why the concept is so offensive.

P.S both are role players and neither is blue chip. Sorry to say.

Me board isn’t likely to accept his 4/72 extension this offseason because he’s likely going to get a lot more unencumbered by early bird rights restrictions. He’s going to be a solid starting PG in this league and that carries a lot of value. If Indy didn’t already have Tyrese Haliburton, Nembhard would already be a starting Pg.


There’s also many mentions in this thread of people looking at straight raw stats, and not understanding that sometimes, strategy and team roles plays into it. Is Nembhard a 9/2/4 guy in the nba? Absolutely not. Is that what he’s playing when he’s assigned the 2 role next to Haliburton, asked to play off ball (because of course you’d play through Haliburton) and assigned the POA defender role against the opponents premiere guard (and even forward), that’s what he puts up. When he starts as the Pg in games Haliburton misses? Much better. Look at the Boston series. Look at what he put up in the rest of the playoffs. 15/3.3/5.5 on 56/48/77 splits in almost 33 minutes a night when it mattered. And he produced even better when Haliburton was injured.


If NAW is THAT much better defensively as y’all are pointing out, there’s simply no way he’s signing for $10-12m per year. No way! I think he’s really, really good defensively, but so is Nembhard and Nesmith. Nesmith is getting $11m per….surely NAW will get more, especially as an unrestricted free agent? And Nembhard is going to get more than $18m per year.


I yield I didn’t watch NAW 70+ times last year. I saw him a handful of times in the regular season and a bunch of the playoffs. He is really good defensively. But not so much better to give up Nembhard and to platoon/basically eliminate Nesmith’s role. The value isn’t there. But the way y’all are talking about Nembhard, I think there needs to be some admission that y’all aren’t watching him play enough, or your not understanding he’s doing exactly what’s being asked of him on any given night. Let’s see some admissions that way, too!

Also, Nembhard won’t go to the 4th year, because then he’d be unrestricted. He’ll have his 4h year declined and entered into restricted free agency where a new deal can be sorted out. But no, NAW isn’t the better player overall. Defensively, maybe? But clear,y not when offense is factored in. A solid distributing Pg that can do everything and actually control the pace has a ton of value and impact that just isn’t being thought of here.

winforlose wrote:

Scoot McGroot wrote:This is just nowhere near a consideration for Indy. At all. Even if you think that NAW is as good as Nembhard (which I wildly disagree), Indy can’t afford to have to pay NAW with the $25m+ salary NAW must surely be worth, if he’s as good as Nembhard.

winforlose wrote:
My question to you is what is the value of a couple protected firsts vs a solid defensive specialist capable of guarding 1-3 now? If you’re lucky maybe you find a cheap defensive player who eventually helps, but you are looking to do big things now.

What role do you see NAW playing in Indy that isn’t already sufficiently covered by Nesmith and Sheppard? I guess he could platoon with Nesmith, but Mathurin will get minutes at the 2, as well, so there’s not a lot to go there. It’s a pretty tightly defined role there, when Indy has shown a desire, and need, to carry and play 3 PG’s, and Nembhard is a pretty dynamite two way PG. I think Indy would consider him a “blue chip type prospect” in trade and would expect a lot in trade value. Like, he’s maybe the centerpiece to a major consolidation trade this season? Even if you think NAW is a better defensive player, it’s not by much, and clearly, Nembhard’s offensive ability should make him much more valuable. Like, not in the same league of value.

I could give a long response trying to explain what NAW is, why your wrong ect… I am not going to because you obviously aren’t looking for a discussion. I will leave you with 3 quick thoughts.

Now, why does it have to be on the attack here? What on earth did I post that leads you to think this is a war, and I’m super duper closed minded and not willing to listen? Be open.

1. Nembhard needs to develop a consist 3 point shot before he can be called a blue chip. 9/2/4 isn’t exactly stellar in 25 minutes per game.

I’m concerned you’re only looking at raw stats, and you’re missing a ton of what Nembhard is and what he’s asked to do. If Nembhard is considered as needing a consistent 3 point shot, NAW does, too. He’s basically had this one hot season of shooting this year, and 36 games shooting hit in Utah. In 115 games of his 299 game career, he’s shot well from 3. The other 184? He’s shot 33.2% from 3. And 32% from 3 nnhis career in the playoffs. Nembhard may shoot 35-36% I THT now, but he also shot 48% from 3 in the long playoff run this year. Both have questions here. I’m probably leaning toward Nembhard figuring out well, and NAW settling in fine enough as a 3 point shooter to call it a point of his game long term, sure.

2. You clearly don’t know enough about NAW to speak intelligently.

Why is it immediately an insult? NAW was HEAVILY mocked to Indy in his draft, so he was heavily covered coming out of college. He’s been heavily covered by Indy fans and media as kind of a follow up and natural focus as “hey, did we miss here?” Obviously, he’s not on in Indy 82 games a year (well, I live in Atlanta, and he’s not on here either). But like, we have league pass. We can watch a lot of teams and try and keep up. Could we miss things? Sure. It’s not out of idiocy, for sure, though, even if you’d like to assume that.

3. If you think Nembhard is worth 25 million a year, you might lose him in RFA. Remember that Hali is making super max money, and Pascal isn’t cheap. Myles is gonna want a bag, and you still need to find ways to bring in more talent to help improve. There will be teams with cap space (not to mention expansion teams,) who will bid you up. With his bird rights you can of course match, but that means your tax bill will be very high and you will be second apron. Of course if Nembhard is actually a 10-15 million player standing 6’5 with a 6’6 wingspan and a sub average 3 ball, then you will be fine. Just food for thought.

It’s not that I “assume” that. It’s that the market is likely telling us that. Marc Stein, Jake Fischer, and other national reporters quickly reported as major news that Indy was hoping to lock him up to a long term extension, and later reported he’s better than that 4/72ish limit and would likely wait until free agency next year.

As for the pacers cap situation… I’m pretty aware of what it is? Like, more than most, we can all agree on this forum? Also, I’m pretty aware of how contractual negotiations work? But all that said, those points don’t mean that you trade Nembhard for another expiring that, as you say, Indy would have no means of keeping, as NAW is clearly going to get more than the sub MLE deal you suggest as $10-12m. Clearly, if cap/tax is an issue, Indy would be loooking for a locked up player long term, or picks, no? Something they could keep? Not someone you still would lose in a year?

Also, there will be no expansion teams negotiating for contracts next offseason. We’re what, 4-5 years away, at the earliest, from an expansion team signing player contracts?

Not to change the subject, but has anyone noticed any greater frequency for a team to trade for a player that recently killed them? Or do teams look at overall body of work, and a player’s personal success against a team isn’t a factor? I haven’t really looked if teams think “if we can’t beat him, let’s have him join us?”

For example, suppose DEN had an owner that was willing to spend and could bring in NAW, who was giving Jamal Murray fits during the DEN-MIN series (and smiling). Would the Nuggets be more likely to trade for him, than other teams? I haven’t really noticed teams doing this and more than a typical frequency, but I haven’t really looked.

winforlose wrote:

jayjaysee wrote:I don’t see how NAW is a better player. But even if they were equal, Minn owes value for the ability to make him a RFA in 12 months. Usually when good GM’s have that opportunity with good players, it works out really well for the team.

NAW has really worked on his game though and has full bird rights (I believe) so Minn should be happy to keep him.

With us it’s more a salary issue and having a rookie Terrance Shannon Jr, who looks NBA ready and hopefully could make NAW redundant. We need a PG, you don’t. So it is as much a fit trade as anything.

Regarding player talent. NAW was not eligible for 2nd team all defense as he played too many games under 20 mins despite averaging 23.4 MPG and playing in 82 games. NAW is a defensive specialist who often subbed in for Jaden McDaniels and contributed to the number 1 defense in the NBA. When he played with Jaden they were as disruptive a duo as you will see in the NBA. NAW stat line was 8/2/2.5 in 23.4 MPG on 43.9/39.1/80 shooting splits. Nembhards numbers were 9.2/2.1/4.2 in 25 MPG on
49.8/35.7/80.4 shooting splits. NAW has higher volume from distance and a higher EFG at 56% compared to Nembhards 55.7%. NAW is a better defender and floor spacer but Nembhard is a better facilitator.

I think after extending Conley and trading an unprotected pick and a swap for a PG.. Minnesota should keep NAW versus adding another guard?

I am a huge fan of Shannon though. Got called out for thinking Minnesota could pencil him in as a long term starter…

But Minnesota invested a lot more in a PG. So would seem best to hope that Jaden/NAW/Shannon develops/grow into being able to play 90 minutes a game between the 2-4. Which seems very reasonable. And Conley lasts long enough for Dill to develop into the starter next to Ant.

But yeah, I have Minnesota owing a decent first here. And them not having a first to pay.

Scoot McGroot wrote:

winforlose wrote:

Scoot McGroot wrote:This is just nowhere near a consideration for Indy. At all. Even if you think that NAW is as good as Nembhard (which I wildly disagree), Indy can’t afford to have to pay NAW with the $25m+ salary NAW must surely be worth, if he’s as good as Nembhard.



What role do you see NAW playing in Indy that isn’t already sufficiently covered by Nesmith and Sheppard? I guess he could platoon with Nesmith, but Mathurin will get minutes at the 2, as well, so there’s not a lot to go there. It’s a pretty tightly defined role there, when Indy has shown a desire, and need, to carry and play 3 PG’s, and Nembhard is a pretty dynamite two way PG. I think Indy would consider him a “blue chip type prospect” in trade and would expect a lot in trade value. Like, he’s maybe the centerpiece to a major consolidation trade this season? Even if you think NAW is a better defensive player, it’s not by much, and clearly, Nembhard’s offensive ability should make him much more valuable. Like, not in the same league of value.

I could give a long response trying to explain what NAW is, why your wrong ect… I am not going to because you obviously aren’t looking for a discussion. I will leave you with 3 quick thoughts.

Now, why does it have to be on the attack here? What on earth did I post that leads you to think this is a war, and I’m super duper closed minded and not willing to listen? Be open.

1. Nembhard needs to develop a consist 3 point shot before he can be called a blue chip. 9/2/4 isn’t exactly stellar in 25 minutes per game.

I’m concerned you’re only looking at raw stats, and you’re missing a ton of what Nembhard is and what he’s asked to do. If Nembhard is considered as needing a consistent 3 point shot, NAW does, too. He’s basically had this one hot season of shooting this year, and 36 games shooting hit in Utah. In 115 games of his 299 game career, he’s shot well from 3. The other 184? He’s shot 33.2% from 3. And 32% from 3 nnhis career in the playoffs. Nembhard may shoot 35-36% I THT now, but he also shot 48% from 3 in the long playoff run this year. Both have questions here. I’m probably leaning toward Nembhard figuring out well, and NAW settling in fine enough as a 3 point shooter to call it a point of his game long term, sure.

2. You clearly don’t know enough about NAW to speak intelligently.

Why is it immediately an insult? NAW was HEAVILY mocked to Indy in his draft, so he was heavily covered coming out of college. He’s been heavily covered by Indy fans and media as kind of a follow up and natural focus as “hey, did we miss here?” Obviously, he’s not on in Indy 82 games a year (well, I live in Atlanta, and he’s not on here either). But like, we have league pass. We can watch a lot of teams and try and keep up. Could we miss things? Sure. It’s not out of idiocy, for sure, though, even if you’d like to assume that.

3. If you think Nembhard is worth 25 million a year, you might lose him in RFA. Remember that Hali is making super max money, and Pascal isn’t cheap. Myles is gonna want a bag, and you still need to find ways to bring in more talent to help improve. There will be teams with cap space (not to mention expansion teams,) who will bid you up. With his bird rights you can of course match, but that means your tax bill will be very high and you will be second apron. Of course if Nembhard is actually a 10-15 million player standing 6’5 with a 6’6 wingspan and a sub average 3 ball, then you will be fine. Just food for thought.

It’s not that I “assume” that. It’s that the market is likely telling us that. Marc Stein, Jake Fischer, and other national reporters quickly reported as major news that Indy was hoping to lock him up to a long term extension, and later reported he’s better than that 4/72ish limit and would likely wait until free agency next year.

As for the pacers cap situation… I’m pretty aware of what it is? Like, more than most, we can all agree on this forum? Also, I’m pretty aware of how contractual negotiations work? But all that said, those points don’t mean that you trade Nembhard for another expiring that, as you say, Indy would have no means of keeping, as NAW is clearly going to get more than the sub MLE deal you suggest as $10-12m. Clearly, if cap/tax is an issue, Indy would be loooking for a locked up player long term, or picks, no? Something they could keep? Not someone you still would lose in a year?

Also, there will be no expansion teams negotiating for contracts next offseason. We’re what, 4-5 years away, at the earliest, from an expansion team signing player contracts?

Gonna respond to both your posts in this one to save space.

1. I am gonna admit right off the bat that I missed the reports of the extension. I did not know Indy wanted to give 4/72 to Nembhard heading into his 3rd year. I am honestly asking this as I am playing catchup, but is Indy declining his option and extending him as a RFA now, or how is this happening?

2. I based my answer on the perceived aggression of your opening paragraph. With the context of the extension I do read it differently. I honestly believe this is wild overpay for either player. Again, 4/72 isn’t 4/100 which is what you suggested he is worth, but you are correct that his worth is relative to the market, and Indy has set the market if they are offering him 4/72.

3. I found a different thread on the trade board interesting as it also is a debate between offense vs defense. I do think that NAW is significantly better at defense than AN. I do think that NAW shot a higher volume from deep than AN during the regular season. I do note that AN’s playoff success from deep is on low volume. All of that being true, I cannot and will not defend NAW’s shooting in the playoffs. He slumped hard at the worst possible time. Whereas AN did contribute more/better in the post season. I also acknowledge that AN is better at playing the PG than NAW and creating for his teammates. At the end of the day, I think the difference boils down to how one values offense vs defense.

4. I do think I should apologize for creating this thread. Had I known about the extension, I would have known the idea was moot. The Wolves are a 2nd apron team and cannot accept more salary back. I thought it was an interesting way to help Indy with their defense, and the Wolves with their playmaking. It seemed like a good way to give Dilly more time to ease into becoming PG on a contender.

edit to add: I should have answered your role question. I wasn’t thinking of it as an honest question, and that was my bad. NAW for the past year has been moved into a kind of defacto backup on ball guard. He becomes the 5th starter when Conley is out. The role he would slot into is your starting SG with the capabilities to do some of what AN did as secondary facilitator when playing as off ball guard. The thought process is that Indy needs an elite all NBA level defender, and the Wolves could use an upgrade in that combo guard offensive role. Essentially both teams get stronger in their area of need.

Also, don’t underestimate the effectiveness of having two high level defenders on the floor at the same time. Jaden and NAW gave fits to Beal and Booker. NAW and Nesmith together could have very interesting effects on raising the quality of Indy’s defense. But again, the point is moot because the trade is moot with the extension.

If I'm Indy i'd rather chop my leg off than to do this trade.

jayjaysee wrote:

winforlose wrote:

jayjaysee wrote:I don’t see how NAW is a better player. But even if they were equal, Minn owes value for the ability to make him a RFA in 12 months. Usually when good GM’s have that opportunity with good players, it works out really well for the team.

NAW has really worked on his game though and has full bird rights (I believe) so Minn should be happy to keep him.

With us it’s more a salary issue and having a rookie Terrance Shannon Jr, who looks NBA ready and hopefully could make NAW redundant. We need a PG, you don’t. So it is as much a fit trade as anything.

Regarding player talent. NAW was not eligible for 2nd team all defense as he played too many games under 20 mins despite averaging 23.4 MPG and playing in 82 games. NAW is a defensive specialist who often subbed in for Jaden McDaniels and contributed to the number 1 defense in the NBA. When he played with Jaden they were as disruptive a duo as you will see in the NBA. NAW stat line was 8/2/2.5 in 23.4 MPG on 43.9/39.1/80 shooting splits. Nembhards numbers were 9.2/2.1/4.2 in 25 MPG on
49.8/35.7/80.4 shooting splits. NAW has higher volume from distance and a higher EFG at 56% compared to Nembhards 55.7%. NAW is a better defender and floor spacer but Nembhard is a better facilitator.

I think after extending Conley and trading an unprotected pick and a swap for a PG.. Minnesota should keep NAW versus adding another guard?

I am a huge fan of Shannon though. Got called out for thinking Minnesota could pencil him in as a long term starter…

But Minnesota invested a lot more in a PG. So would seem best to hope that Jaden/NAW/Shannon develops/grow into being able to play 90 minutes a game between the 2-4. Which seems very reasonable. And Conley lasts long enough for Dill to develop into the starter next to Ant.

But yeah, I have Minnesota owing a decent first here. And them not having a first to pay.

NAW kinda plays PG anyway when Mike is down. What I liked about AN is that he plays SG but can help with PG. I thought it would be valuable to have that alongside RD to help ease him in. It also seemed like a good rotation going forward with one of them as starting PG and the other as a 6th man going forward (in 2 years assuming we kept AN.) It also seemed like Indy would benefit more from the upgrade in POA defense.

Ultimately any trade NAW thread assumes TSJ is gonna be good enough to replace NAW, that NAW will leave in free agency, and the Wolves would at best get a sign and trade 2nd or 2. Working from those assumptions I figured this might be a good win/win, but clearly I was behind the times on Nembhard.

I think minny is wise to trade NAW before losing him in FA next year. He could be looking at KCP money. Reid also needs a new contract.

I also have nembhard worth more though