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David Griffin disasterclass.

Can't believe this team is rolling into the season with Murray-CJ-Zion-Ingram and no center. How does anyone get the ball as much as they want? Who defends other than Herb?

I feel like the Warriors and Pelicans are the last two drunks at the bar, wondering if they've both lowered their standards enough to go home together.

The worst thing is, of all the return they got for both AD and Holiday, Ingram is all that's left (and 2 swaps with the Bucks in 26 and 27), I guess you can add Murray, they got him for assets from these trades.

Makes me believe if PG didn't sign with Philly, Ingram would be a Sixer today. Various reports said he was our plan B.

And the only reasons PG signed with Philly is because LAC wouldn't give him the offer he wanted and LAC didn't see a suitable trade with GSW. Crazy how contingent things can be in this league.

gswhoops wrote:I feel like the Warriors and Pelicans are the last two drunks at the bar, wondering if they've both lowered their standards enough to go home together.

I actually like Ingram on GS a lot, but they're horrible trading partners and it's tough finding a 3rd team to take on Wiggins.

Ingram not being wanted isn't that big of a deal for the Pelicans, IMO. Ingram is incentivized to ball out in his contract year and if he does, perhaps he's tradable at the deadline. Meanwhile they still have Trey Murphy waiting in the wings to take his minutes, if a trade happens or he walks in summer 2025.

Just don't give him a max extension if you're New Orleans and this still works out well.

I was playing with what a Dallas offer looks like in December? Klay, Gafford, Maxi, 2025 first for Ingram and two vet mins match pretty perfectly.. Could send one of the vets to a third team in order to wiggle the apron if needed..

Assuming Ingram agrees to an extension and the new guys are willing to chip in to keep that roster together (Luka, Kyrie, Ingram, PJ, Lively)

ProcessDoctor wrote:

gswhoops wrote:I feel like the Warriors and Pelicans are the last two drunks at the bar, wondering if they've both lowered their standards enough to go home together.

I actually like Ingram on GS a lot, but they're horrible trading partners and it's tough finding a 3rd team to take on Wiggins.

Yeah. As a Warriors fan who tries to remain somewhat objective about things, it's been rough to watch the fanbase piss and moan about how unreasonable Ainge is without taking a single glance inwards.

Could we get the first deadline blockbuster in a while? Wiggins/Moody/1st for an expiring BI seems like it could be a "both teams are flailing and desperately need to shake things up" type move.

Personally, I find the Ingram situation (and a bunch of others that have already played out) very entertaining.

When this radical change in salary/tax/apron rules was announced, along with the “Summer 2024” date for full adoption, you could see all the wheels start to turn in the minds of all 30 teams. Yeah, some executives are clearly smarter than others, but these are all relatively smart people with very complex jobs trying to out-wit each other. I’m sure they all had ideas on how things would play out, and only some of them guessed correctly. The battle wages on.

From the players and agents side, there was likely an equal amount of speculation. The true superstars (say top 15 players) aren’t bothered by this at all, because nothing has changed — they get PAID. But the market for clearly above average, even fringe All-Star talent, has changed. As has every tier below that, particularly the NBA middle class, which looks like it’s going to continue to dwindle as the years pass.

Karl Marx and Adam Smith would be eating this isht up right now.

jayjaysee wrote:I was playing with what a Dallas offer looks like in December? Klay, Gafford, Maxi, 2025 first for Ingram and two vet mins match pretty perfectly.. Could send one of the vets to a third team in order to wiggle the apron if needed..

Assuming Ingram agrees to an extension and the new guys are willing to chip in to keep that roster together (Luka, Kyrie, Ingram, PJ, Lively)

I actually like that quite a bit. It looks like they could do it now with OMP, Exum, Lawson, Hardy and Powell in place of Klay, and New Orleans does still have roster space (2 spots) and Dallas could send cash for buyouts? Maybe my headmath is wrong here, but that should get them to 37.3 million and Ingram is 36 million. Bring in a third team that would absorb some of the contracts for 2nds (Utah still has like $8 million in cap, I'd happily take Lawson and Exum for a 2nd and give them the choice to stay or leave on a buyout). Dallas should be able to replace a lot of those lost minutes with minimum guys? Maybe it does not quite work with capholds.

Lively/min./min.
Washington/min./Marshall
Ingram/Marshall/Luka
Luka/Grimes/min.
Kyrie/Dinwiddie/min.

That seems like a reasonable 8 players out of a 9 player rotation. Sign Omer Yurtseven, Nathan Knight, Robert Covington, Talen Horton-Tucker, and Duane Washington to minimum contracts (or some other combination of the better guys left) and I think you end with a nice rotation.

Lively/Yurtseven/Knight
Washington/Covington/Marshall
Ingram/Marshall/Luka
Luka/Grimes/THT
Kyrie/Dinwiddie/Washington

I feel like you can carve a 9-10 man rotation that doesn't look anemic out of that. THT has scaled up in the past even if he's really not the best decisionmaker, Washington has scaled up before, Yurtseven does an admirable job with minutes, Covington might still have something left in a 15 minute role, Knight seems okay, etc.

tmorgan wrote:Personally, I find the Ingram situation (and a bunch of others that have already played out) very entertaining.

When this radical change in salary/tax/apron rules was announced, along with the “Summer 2024” date for full adoption, you could see all the wheels start to turn in the minds of all 30 teams. Yeah, some executives are clearly smarter than others, but these are all relatively smart people with very complex jobs trying to out-wit each other. I’m sure they all had ideas on how things would play out, and only some of them guessed correctly. The battle wages on.

From the players and agents side, there was likely an equal amount of speculation. The true superstars (say top 15 players) aren’t bothered by this at all, because nothing has changed — they get PAID. But the market for clearly above average, even fringe All-Star talent, has changed. As has every tier below that, particularly the NBA middle class, which looks like it’s going to continue to dwindle as the years pass.

Karl Marx and Adam Smith would be eating this isht up right now.

I think the NBA 'lower class' and 'lower middle class' benefits, though. We are already seeing quite a few contracts that are 1-2 million above the minimum for guys that may not have gotten that before because teams want the best choice out of the bunch for a rotation guy (or, at least this is how I'm trying to justify Eubanks vs. other bottom-of-the-barrel centers).

babyjax13 wrote:

tmorgan wrote:Personally, I find the Ingram situation (and a bunch of others that have already played out) very entertaining.

When this radical change in salary/tax/apron rules was announced, along with the “Summer 2024” date for full adoption, you could see all the wheels start to turn in the minds of all 30 teams. Yeah, some executives are clearly smarter than others, but these are all relatively smart people with very complex jobs trying to out-wit each other. I’m sure they all had ideas on how things would play out, and only some of them guessed correctly. The battle wages on.

From the players and agents side, there was likely an equal amount of speculation. The true superstars (say top 15 players) aren’t bothered by this at all, because nothing has changed — they get PAID. But the market for clearly above average, even fringe All-Star talent, has changed. As has every tier below that, particularly the NBA middle class, which looks like it’s going to continue to dwindle as the years pass.

Karl Marx and Adam Smith would be eating this isht up right now.

I think the NBA 'lower class' and 'lower middle class' benefits, though. We are already seeing quite a few contracts that are 1-2 million above the minimum for guys that may not have gotten that before because teams want the best choice out of the bunch for a rotation guy (or, at least this is how I'm trying to justify Eubanks vs. other bottom-of-the-barrel centers).

Certainly could be true. Stratification works in similar ways across different industries that are otherwise very different. When one economic/social/whatever level declines for whatever reason (the MLE to below max group in the NBA, in this example), it obviously leads to more entities in other groups, which tends to make those groups diversify to some extent. In economics, the decline of the middle class made those pushed downward want to distinguish themselves from the lower-middle or working classes that they joined — essentially trying to “save” their previous condition, despite the loss in income and privilege.

If an NBA team can convince themselves that certain members of the growing “vet min” group are worth having, they’ll pay more. Not sure Eubanks is worthy of such a distinction, though.

babyjax13 wrote:

jayjaysee wrote:I was playing with what a Dallas offer looks like in December? Klay, Gafford, Maxi, 2025 first for Ingram and two vet mins match pretty perfectly.. Could send one of the vets to a third team in order to wiggle the apron if needed..

Assuming Ingram agrees to an extension and the new guys are willing to chip in to keep that roster together (Luka, Kyrie, Ingram, PJ, Lively)

I actually like that quite a bit. It looks like they could do it now with OMP, Exum, Lawson, Hardy and Powell in place of Klay, and New Orleans does still have roster space (2 spots) and Dallas could send cash for buyouts? Maybe my headmath is wrong here, but that should get them to 37.3 million and Ingram is 36 million..

Dallas doesn’t have the room under the apron for that once you need to backfill roster back to 14 unfortunately.

Hard capped due to the offseason transactions.

The stratification is real for sure, but Brandon Ingram is one of those fake stars. He has big counting stats, but his impact is not what you think it should be. He also wants to be paid more when he's clearly plateaued as a player. Just because a player moves into that 27-31 window, doesn't mean he's going to improve. Salary be damned, how many teams does his style of iso-play work with in 2024-25? It's a testament to Zion and CJ that they are unselfish enough to let Brandon be an iso-midrange guy.

I make no reservations for being biased against the guy after he sulked on the Team USA world cup team. All he wanted to do was iso, not play defense and not move without the ball. Lu Dort embarrassing him in the playoffs was the icing on the cake.

i think they wait until Claxton is available for trade in December

Very relevant info. So Ingram and his agent are still holding firm to the max only stance, apparently. But they could agree to a trade and extend to this salary number that makes him immediately tradeable. That's the best case scenario at this point, for Griffin/Pels to get a reasonable return value for him.

?t=QwsthvIO2J-iil253xwUNQ&s=19

there will be some team that's one piece away that does it, but 4/172M on Ingram is pretty rough if you care about your future

HornetJail wrote:there will be some team that's one piece away that does it, but 4/172M on Ingram is pretty rough if you care about your future

Be prepared, brother. It's gonna be your Hornets when they have a surprise fast start out the gate this season.

Godaddycurse wrote:i think they wait until Claxton is available for trade in December

Clax is a great target.

zimpy27 wrote:

Godaddycurse wrote:i think they wait until Claxton is available for trade in December

Clax is a great target.

I have a feeling that the Nets and NOLA may benefit from a trade here... .NOLA Ingram = Clax... Ingram+CJ = Simmons Cam Johnson with salary. There's one team that wants to tank and rebuild, and the other needs something it has. Just move the value around and I think something could happen.