Utah/Chicago - Collins (take 50?)

[jayjaysee]

Another spin for some reason. Maybe done, probably done?

Chicago: John Collins and the worse of Minn/Cleveland 2025 first

Chicago gets a guaranteed (but late) first and continues their “retool not rebuild” by bringing in a third vet big to work with Stix/Vucevic and some minutes from the youth… Outsiders, like me, will hope they play Vooch/Collins together a lot and the defense leads them to a top 6 pick and adding a real piece to Matas/Patrick/Giddey/Coby potential core… But they could pretend Collins is a long term fit.

Utah: Ball, Carter, and the Portland first

Utah wants to tank. And should want to clear salary. They trade a guaranteed first that will likely be very late, but get a first that could convey by 2027 or 2028 if Portland drafts well in 2025.. if it doesn’t convey in 2028 - Utah will at least get a top half second round pick while saving 20 million dollars next season. Utah has the assets to sit on the first for a few years and hope for the best.


Utah owes a second back or more? Or taking my dislike for Collins’ game too far?

[BK_2020]

Utah wants to tank

And they don't have to make a single roster to move to accomplish this goal.

And should want to clear salary.

Why? They under the cap and have no FA plans. If they delete John Collins from their payroll they have to replace most of that savings with new signings to get over the salary floor.

[jayjaysee]

Utah wants to tank

And they don't have to make a single roster to move to accomplish this goal.

And should want to clear salary.

Why? They under the cap and have no FA plans. If they delete John Collins from their payroll they have to replace most of that savings with new signings to get over the salary floor.

Clear salary for next season? The OP saves Utah 0 dollars this season and 20 million next year.

Where they’d have about 20-25 million in cap space before other trades/free agency…

I think you saw that though?

[BK_2020]

Utah wants to tank

And they don't have to make a single roster to move to accomplish this goal.

And should want to clear salary.

Why? They under the cap and have no FA plans. If they delete John Collins from their payroll they have to replace most of that savings with new signings to get over the salary floor.

Clear salary for next season? The OP saves Utah 0 dollars this season and 20 million next year.

Where they’d have about 20-25 million in cap space before other trades/free agency…

I think you saw that though?

What's the point of 20-25 million in cap space for Utah? Especially in 2025 off-season? All they'll use it for is sign John Collins-level players to hit the salary floor.

[jayjaysee]

And they don't have to make a single roster to move to accomplish this goal.


Why? They under the cap and have no FA plans. If they delete John Collins from their payroll they have to replace most of that savings with new signings to get over the salary floor.

Clear salary for next season? The OP saves Utah 0 dollars this season and 20 million next year.

Where they’d have about 20-25 million in cap space before other trades/free agency…

I think you saw that though?

What's the point of 20-25 million in cap space for Utah? Especially in 2025 off-season? All they'll use it for is sign John Collins-level players to hit the salary floor.

Maybe it’s Clarkson for a 30 million dollar player that actually helps.

Maybe it’s getting a first for eating 20 million. Or moving up in the draft using their late first.

Maybe it’s dumping Clarkson and paying Ingram something below his max. Or overpaying one of the other many decent free agents next offseason.

Most options are better than paying John Collins 26 million dollars though.

But the salary floor is 90% of the cap so they’d really still be able to save like 10-15 million in real dollars if it’s as bad in Utah as you picture.

[BK_2020]

If Ingram was willing to sign for 25-30 mil a year (the amount under the cap minus Collins plus a top 5 pick), the Pelicans would've already extended him.
It makes no sense for the Jazz to randomly give up assets to clear salary on the off chance there's a free agent they want to sign who is also willing to sign with them. It makes less chance to give up assets to clear salary to overpay a free agent or take on salary for assets.

[babyjax13]

I'm in. Gets veteran minutes off the team and gives us more options next offseason. I'd buyout Lonzo and just keep Carter tille a team has a point guard injury. Even if next year the option is to take salary for an asset, it leaves you better than where you started bc it made your own pick more valuable.

[BK_2020]

There's really no value gained going from 2nd worst in the league to 1st worst. Your odds are the same unless you and the 1st worst team both fall out of the top 4.

[pipfan]

This deal has potential, since Chi doesn't want to tank. Collins would help us more than Ball or Carter, and we add a 1st (probably in the 20's, but still has value).

For Utah, $20 million in cap space ALWAYS has value. This deal opens up minutes for the kids, and MAYBE Ball shows something and they can flip him. Carter is bench depth but probably wasted money, and the Port 1st has a good chance to make good in '27 or '28 (not many teams miss the playoffs for a decade straight, and Port has lots of nice, young pieces to build with).

Good deal (IF Chi wants another shot at the Playin)

[BK_2020]

The Jazz have 4 guys who are confirmed playable NBA players on the roster, one of them is Kessler who's been good for 24 mpg max. There's no urgent need to open up minutes for their young players. They didn't draft Wilt Chamberlain, no one's playing 48 mpg.

[SkyHook]

I'm in. Gets veteran minutes off the team and gives us more options next offseason. I'd buyout Lonzo and just keep Carter tille a team has a point guard injury. Even if next year the option is to take salary for an asset, it leaves you better than where you started bc it made your own pick more valuable.

Yeah, I could get on board with this. For as much as he's maligned, Collins raises the floor for Utah far too much in a season where wins are a negative.

[ChettheJet]

I think that IF there were talks with UT and the Bull some of the previous 49 attempts could have been tweaked just enough to make the deal. And I have long wanted to get Collins to the Bulls.

I'm done watching that PORT pick and thinking it's ever going to hatch, the Bulls never found a way to get Jevon Carter into the rotation so he could help and they have no shortage of guards who are ahead of him in their scheme. I just don't see the Jazz or any other team tanking or not taking Ball and discovering that he is healthy and capable of contributing but then not being willing to play him because they want to lose. It turns off other players to that team for not giving a guy the chance to come back.

Right now I'm reluctant to give up Ball or give up on him. Now that he's progressed to playing 5on5 that makes the bet that his surgery worked and he can recover even better. People who only see him as an expiring $21M contract are ready to move him and think some other team will be glad to pay that money to a guy who may not play the risk being wrong. I seethe young guy who may finally be fit to play and I'm not so feeble minded that I have forgotten the difference maker he was. I want to take the chance that he can play, that he can be on the floor with the Olympic Josh Giddey and a continuing to improve Coby White and a next step Ayo Dosunmu.

[jayjaysee]

I just don't see the Jazz or any other team tanking or not taking Ball and discovering that he is healthy and capable of contributing but then not being willing to play him because they want to lose. It turns off other players to that team for not giving a guy the chance to come back.

Only snipping this part. If Chicago thinks Lonzo can finally get right and doesn’t want to give up on him now, that’s an entirely different valuation..

But, Utah is the team that just locked up a top 25 player, while planning to tank. I don’t think they’d have any issue paying Ball (or Simmons or anyone really) not to play this season if it came with other benefits.

[drosestruts]

This trade likely puts the Bulls into the tax in the 2025 season due to Giddey's pending extension.

Ball's expiring salary is what will allow them to have the space to likely re-sign Giddey without entering the tax in 2025.

This isn't a commentary on the value - just a look ahead into how a trade like this could lead to financial issues for the Bulls later on if no other moves are made.

The Bulls weren't willing to take on Harrison Barnes and enter the tax for a 2031 pick swap, will they be willing to potentially enter the tax (again other moves could maybe be made) for a late 2025 1st?

[Dez]

This deal has potential, since Chi doesn't want to tank. Collins would help us more than Ball or Carter, and we add a 1st (probably in the 20's, but still has value).

For Utah, $20 million in cap space ALWAYS has value. This deal opens up minutes for the kids, and MAYBE Ball shows something and they can flip him. Carter is bench depth but probably wasted money, and the Port 1st has a good chance to make good in '27 or '28 (not many teams miss the playoffs for a decade straight, and Port has lots of nice, young pieces to build with).

Good deal (IF Chi wants another shot at the Playin)

Literally every move was a tank move, they aren't going to come out and say we're tanking.

DDR and Drummond being gone make us significantly worse. Giddey is going to be good but he's not going to be able to carry us to the play-in territory like DeRozan did.

We got younger, not better.

[meekrab]

The Bulls already have the perfect tank PF in Patrick Williams, who sometimes plays like he's scared of scoring points, as well as a skinny rookie who can't shoot 3s backing him up, what use do they have for Collins with his occasional competence and extra year of salary?