Harder to make trades

[jazzfan1971]

I was trying to move BI today and it was frustratingly hard. Few teams have the salary to take him. Almost all the teams that would want him can't take back more money.

Congrats to NY for figuring out how to trade for KAT this ish ain't easy anymore.

[Mavrelous]

I said from the late June, the limit on incoming salary between 1st and 2nd Apron wasn't well thought and serves no purpose.

[babyjax13]

I said from the late June, the limit on incoming salary between 1st and 2nd Apron wasn't well thought and serves no purpose.

I am open to waiting 3 years and seeing how it changes the competitive landscape of the league. If it works in distributing talent, it might be rare to have a team like the Pistons winning 14 games for a decade.

[oldncreaky]

I said from the late June, the limit on incoming salary between 1st and 2nd Apron wasn't well thought and serves no purpose.

I am open to waiting 3 years and seeing how it changes the competitive landscape of the league. If it works in distributing talent, it might be rare to have a team like the Pistons winning 14 games for a decade.

Hey! No fair! The Pistons have won 94 games in 5 years, which averages almost 19 wins a year, and is so much better than "14 games for a decade"

On topic: I agree we should wait to see how the new CBA changes things before deciding what (if any) changes went too far. 3 years sounds like a reasonable evaluation period. I can see arguments for and against having the limit on incoming salary at the 1st apron, but I'd like to see how all the changes play out before further tweaking.

[Mavrelous]

I said from the late June, the limit on incoming salary between 1st and 2nd Apron wasn't well thought and serves no purpose.

I am open to waiting 3 years and seeing how it changes the competitive landscape of the league. If it works in distributing talent, it might be rare to have a team like the Pistons winning 14 games for a decade.

CBA isn't the reason Pistons suck, bad management is, worse markets like OKC, UTA, NO have been more successful.
I like the new CBA, I like the 2nd Apron, and like how easier it became to trade below 1st Apron, it's just that limiting teams between the Aprons (were most contenders will likely be at some point) to not being able to take more salary is counterproductive, KAT trade is an example for that.

[Scoot McGroot]

I said from the late June, the limit on incoming salary between 1st and 2nd Apron wasn't well thought and serves no purpose.

I am open to waiting 3 years and seeing how it changes the competitive landscape of the league. If it works in distributing talent, it might be rare to have a team like the Pistons winning 14 games for a decade.

CBA isn't the reason Pistons suck, bad management is, worse markets like OKC, UTA, NO have been more successful.
I like the new CBA, I like the 2nd Apron, and like how easier it became to trade below 1st Apron, it's just that limiting teams between the Aprons (were most contenders will likely be at some point) to not being able to take more salary is counterproductive, KAT trade is an example for that.

It serves the exact purpose that ownership hoped for when they negotiated for it. It’s one of the back door means for them to try and limit the intending addition of salaries and contributed to the closest they can come to a potential hard cap.

It’s working as designed, and as ownership wants it to.

But even then, these trades can work pretty simply by just looping in a 3rd team and having each apron constrained team send a 2nd there along with some unwanted, but necessary, matching salary.

[Mavrelous]

I am open to waiting 3 years and seeing how it changes the competitive landscape of the league. If it works in distributing talent, it might be rare to have a team like the Pistons winning 14 games for a decade.

CBA isn't the reason Pistons suck, bad management is, worse markets like OKC, UTA, NO have been more successful.
I like the new CBA, I like the 2nd Apron, and like how easier it became to trade below 1st Apron, it's just that limiting teams between the Aprons (were most contenders will likely be at some point) to not being able to take more salary is counterproductive, KAT trade is an example for that.

It serves the exact purpose that ownership hoped for when they negotiated for it. It’s one of the back door means for them to try and limit the intending addition of salaries and contributed to the closest they can come to a potential hard cap.

It’s working as designed, and as ownership wants it to.

But even then, these trades can work pretty simply by just looping in a 3rd team and having each apron constrained team send a 2nd there along with some unwanted, but necessary, matching salary.

That's just not true...
Teams are hardcapped at the 2nd Apron anyway, banning moving up through trades in this tight band between the Aprons doesn't really comtribute, and just opens the door to needless S&T like the KAT deal.

[babyjax13]

I said from the late June, the limit on incoming salary between 1st and 2nd Apron wasn't well thought and serves no purpose.

I am open to waiting 3 years and seeing how it changes the competitive landscape of the league. If it works in distributing talent, it might be rare to have a team like the Pistons winning 14 games for a decade.

CBA isn't the reason Pistons suck, bad management is, worse markets like OKC, UTA, NO have been more successful.
I like the new CBA, I like the 2nd Apron, and like how easier it became to trade below 1st Apron, it's just that limiting teams between the Aprons (were most contenders will likely be at some point) to not being able to take more salary is counterproductive, KAT trade is an example for that.

To me this is a "yes BUT." Yes, the Pistons suck because of bad management, but it's possible to suck because of bad management and be a consistent 30-35 win team (see the Bulls). The NBA is in a healthier place if more teams are in that spot than where the bottom feeders have been. Better product to watch, more likely that if they get good management things can be turned around quick.

[MessiahUjiri]

CBA isn't the reason Pistons suck, bad management is, worse markets like OKC, UTA, NO have been more successful.
I like the new CBA, I like the 2nd Apron, and like how easier it became to trade below 1st Apron, it's just that limiting teams between the Aprons (were most contenders will likely be at some point) to not being able to take more salary is counterproductive, KAT trade is an example for that.

It serves the exact purpose that ownership hoped for when they negotiated for it. It’s one of the back door means for them to try and limit the intending addition of salaries and contributed to the closest they can come to a potential hard cap.

It’s working as designed, and as ownership wants it to.

But even then, these trades can work pretty simply by just looping in a 3rd team and having each apron constrained team send a 2nd there along with some unwanted, but necessary, matching salary.

That's just not true...
Teams are hardcapped at the 2nd Apron anyway, banning moving up through trades in this tight band between the Aprons doesn't really comtribute, and just opens the door to needless S&T like the KAT deal.

Exactly (the bolded part). Have the hard cap at 2nd apron, and get rid of this weird restriction from taking back more salary.

[jbk1234]

CBA isn't the reason Pistons suck, bad management is, worse markets like OKC, UTA, NO have been more successful.
I like the new CBA, I like the 2nd Apron, and like how easier it became to trade below 1st Apron, it's just that limiting teams between the Aprons (were most contenders will likely be at some point) to not being able to take more salary is counterproductive, KAT trade is an example for that.

It serves the exact purpose that ownership hoped for when they negotiated for it. It’s one of the back door means for them to try and limit the intending addition of salaries and contributed to the closest they can come to a potential hard cap.

It’s working as designed, and as ownership wants it to.

But even then, these trades can work pretty simply by just looping in a 3rd team and having each apron constrained team send a 2nd there along with some unwanted, but necessary, matching salary.

That's just not true...
Teams are hardcapped at the 2nd Apron anyway, banning moving up through trades in this tight band between the Aprons doesn't really comtribute, and just opens the door to needless S&T like the KAT deal.

I mean the first apron is currently $38M over the salary cap (the delta is only getting larger). I suspect it's working exactly as the owners wanted. They want tax teams to have to make difficult choices. The players wanted rebuilding teams to stop sitting on cap space in order to trade it for eating bad contracts. I'd have more sympathy if teams weren't told of the changes two years ago and put themselves in this position anyway.

[Godaddycurse]

It's a little harder but there's the new MLE exception for a 3rd or even 4th team to absorb salary with so it's not the end of the world

[psman2]

It's a little harder but there's the new MLE exception for a 3rd or even 4th team to absorb salary with so it's not the end of the world

I do think it will be a multi year process to find an equilibrium. I think the biggest impact will be GMs will be more hesitant to give the big mid tier sub-max contracts we have seen in the past to guys like CJM, Grant, Kuz, etc. Before you could just pay your guys and still likely find a suiter later down the road if the talent hadn't fallen off to much, but now the only teams interest in those type of players/contracts are usually contenders that now have a much reduced capability to swing a trade. Cannot just stack bad contracts like you could in the past.

[zimpy27]

I said from the late June, the limit on incoming salary between 1st and 2nd Apron wasn't well thought and serves no purpose.

Yeah should be:
under 1st apron - 125% incoming vs outgoing
under 2nd apron - 110% incoming vs outgoing
over 2nd apron - 100% incoming vs outgoing

[Chinook]

I'm liking the new rules. Folks who think the previous iteration of the NBA was the best are going to struggle with the change. Teams are going to build through the draft, and players who want to play together are going to have to take less to make it happen. This means fewer superteams and mitigates the expectation that contending teams should burn all of their assets and flexibility to improve.

I just wish they had updated the Stepien rule to take away these huge multi-pick trade packages. The balance would be perfect then.

[Scoot McGroot]

CBA isn't the reason Pistons suck, bad management is, worse markets like OKC, UTA, NO have been more successful.
I like the new CBA, I like the 2nd Apron, and like how easier it became to trade below 1st Apron, it's just that limiting teams between the Aprons (were most contenders will likely be at some point) to not being able to take more salary is counterproductive, KAT trade is an example for that.

It serves the exact purpose that ownership hoped for when they negotiated for it. It’s one of the back door means for them to try and limit the intending addition of salaries and contributed to the closest they can come to a potential hard cap.

It’s working as designed, and as ownership wants it to.

But even then, these trades can work pretty simply by just looping in a 3rd team and having each apron constrained team send a 2nd there along with some unwanted, but necessary, matching salary.

That's just not true...
Teams are hardcapped at the 2nd Apron anyway, banning moving up through trades in this tight band between the Aprons doesn't really comtribute, and just opens the door to needless S&T like the KAT deal.

Why isn’t it true? And teams aren’t automatically hard capped at the second apron.

Owners have cut the ways to add unlimited salary to the roster by ways such as creating hard caps at aprons, and have instituted rules to make it tough to add salary as you climb higher in the aprons. What the Knicks did wouldn’t have been possible if they were over the second apron as a second apron team can’t acquire contracts by sign and trading players away. Teams can add salary at different levels, and it slows down a they get higher. Just as the owners intended. Players want unlimited salary levels. Owners want a hard cap. So, the best owners could get was to make it “difficult” to add salary as you get higher in total, but it doesn’t completely eliminate it. We’re talking about salary levels that are over the luxury tax, and owners want to keep the salary levels lower and ultimately end up under the tax, ideally. These rules that keep salary levels suppressed (how many MLE’s were spent this summer?), even below apron. Levels, are part of the goals of the owners. They didn’t accidentally cover the spending field with rakes and now are shocked they don’t want to step on them. They did this on purpose.

[Scoot McGroot]

I said from the late June, the limit on incoming salary between 1st and 2nd Apron wasn't well thought and serves no purpose.

Yeah should be:
under 1st apron - 125% incoming vs outgoing
under 2nd apron - 110% incoming vs outgoing
over 2nd apron - 100% incoming vs outgoing

This would imply that owners want the flexibility to easily climb well above the first apron. They probably don’t.

[Mavrelous]

I said from the late June, the limit on incoming salary between 1st and 2nd Apron wasn't well thought and serves no purpose.

Yeah should be:
under 1st apron - 125% incoming vs outgoing
under 2nd apron - 110% incoming vs outgoing
over 2nd apron - 100% incoming vs outgoing

Yep, the 2 Knicks trades just showed how arbitrary, and counterproductive this limitations is.

[Mavrelous]

Why isn’t it true? And teams aren’t automatically hard capped at the second apron.

Because it objectively isn't true?
Teams that trade for higher salary are automatically hardcapped at the 1st Apron, we are discussing relaxing this hardcapping for the area between the Aprons, hence, teams are hardcapped at the 2nd Apron.
Teams are allowed to salary between the Aprons, TPMLE, and of course, what the Knicks did S&T players, in this tight band of 17M.
The league has already set in place rules to discourage these bogus contracs signed solely to serve the CBA with the BYC rule, this limitation just created an incentive to sign a lot of them to bypass a rule that shouldn't have been there in the 1st place.

Owners have cut the ways to add unlimited salary to the roster by ways such as creating hard caps at aprons, and have instituted rules to make it tough to add salary as you climb higher in the aprons.

I think most regulars on this board know this, that doesn't mean they didn't add a wrong rule with unintended consequences, nothing of what I suggested constitutes as "add unlimited salary to the roster"

What the Knicks did wouldn’t have been possible if they were over the second apron as a second apron team can’t acquire contracts by sign and trading players away. Teams can add salary at different levels, and it slows down a they get higher. Just as the owners intended. Players want unlimited salary levels. Owners want a hard cap. So, the best owners could get was to make it “difficult” to add salary as you get higher in total, but it doesn’t completely eliminate it. We’re talking about salary levels that are over the luxury tax, and owners want to keep the salary levels lower and ultimately end up under the tax, ideally. These rules that keep salary levels suppressed (how many MLE’s were spent this summer?), even below apron. Levels, are part of the goals of the owners. They didn’t accidentally cover the spending field with rakes and now are shocked they don’t want to step on them. They did this on purpose.

There is no point in all of this, we understand the CBA and the rationale behind it, we are discussing a specific rule that seems to be counterproductive, I don't see a point in rehashing the entire CBA to discuss this 1 rule, I already said that I liked the idea behind the 2nd Apron and the new limitations.

[clippertown]

Clips will take Ingram. How about Powell and Tucker, plus our next first round pick? Works in the trade machine.

They might even resign him for a decent deal if he performs.

[shangrila]

The market needs time to correct. It's, what, the 1st or 2nd season under the new CBA? We won't truly know how things will play out until all of the old contracts are gone.