RealGM

Randle + Pistons FRP x C.Johnson + Sharpe/Clowney/Watford/Z.Williams

why for Nets
they have the full roster on the block
C.Johnson is a good player, but not an all star
they acquire the Pistons's FRP that is becaming interesting beacause of the low level of the Easterne Conference make the Pistons a potential playoff team (so the pick can be a lottery pick in 2025)
I don't think any other team can put on the table block a potential lottery pick

why for Timberwolves
C.Johnson is a tweener SF/PF that can be interchangeable with McDaniels, is a player who has a low number of turnovers, and a good 3-point shot, he is a better defender than Randle
in addition Johnson has a good contract for more two years, while Randle in an expiring
Minnesota put Garza in rotation or sell Reid in another trade (for example in exchange of an expiring contract and a protected FRP)

Minnesota rotation after the trade (I suppose, for example, a Reid's trade for FRP and S.Adams)
Conley-Dillingham-DDV/NAW
Edwards-DDV-NAW
McDaniels-NAW-Minott
C.Jonhnson-McDaniels-Minott
Gobert-Garza-Adams

what do you think about this trade?

I'm a little confused by it. I would think theoretically that Clowney or Sharpe could play backup C, though I admit I haven't watched them play much and their measurements seem to vary between different sources so I'd need others feedback on that. In any event, why would you move Randle to then also move Naz later? Like, you'd want to keep 1 of those 2 if the thought is they can't play together and need an actual bigger body to play backup C. I also want no part of Garza in the rotation. He's a nice story, but thats about where it stops. He can't defend at an NBA level to be a regular rotation guy.

schaffy wrote:I'm a little confused by it. I would think theoretically that Clowney or Sharpe could play backup C, though I admit I haven't watched them play much and their measurements seem to vary between different sources so I'd need others feedback on that. In any event, why would you move Randle to then also move Naz later? Like, you'd want to keep 1 of those 2 if the thought is they can't play together and need an actual bigger body to play backup C. I also want no part of Garza in the rotation. He's a nice story, but thats about where it stops. He can't defend at an NBA level to be a regular rotation guy.

You are right about Sharpe or Clowney
However I don't mind about those players because i don't know wich player the Brooklyn Nets make avaliable for the trade, so i supposed the worst case scenario when Minnesota takes a player that isn't useful to them

the second hypotetical trade of Naz Reid is because he don't can play C and he is expiring
So i prefer to sell Reid for a future asset

Edited: Didn’t see Detroit 1st

Very weird trade for Brooklyn. I guess they turn around and try to move Randle to a 3rd team?

Hard to see Minnesota giving up on Randle this quickly.

TheBrooklynKidd wrote:Edited: Didn’t see Detroit 1st

Very weird trade for Brooklyn. I guess they turn around and try to move Randle to a 3rd team?

Hard to see Minnesota giving up on Randle this quickly.

I get why that would be hard to see. The problem is as a Wolves fan, Randle is harder to watch. If cancer could get cancer they should call it Randle.

winforlose wrote:

TheBrooklynKidd wrote:Edited: Didn’t see Detroit 1st

Very weird trade for Brooklyn. I guess they turn around and try to move Randle to a 3rd team?

Hard to see Minnesota giving up on Randle this quickly.

I get why that would be hard to see. The problem is as a Wolves fan, Randle is harder to watch. If cancer could get cancer they should call it Randle.

Thats a little over the top. He isn't even the worst starter to watch right now with McDaniels out there.

schaffy wrote:

winforlose wrote:

TheBrooklynKidd wrote:Edited: Didn’t see Detroit 1st

Very weird trade for Brooklyn. I guess they turn around and try to move Randle to a 3rd team?

Hard to see Minnesota giving up on Randle this quickly.

I get why that would be hard to see. The problem is as a Wolves fan, Randle is harder to watch. If cancer could get cancer they should call it Randle.

Thats a little over the top. He isn't even the worst starter to watch right now with McDaniels out there.

McDaniels puts in the effort, and is struggling. Randle sits there and watches his teammates try and salvage the defense that he refuses to contribute to. This video is just a small sample of the misery that is Randle. Not to mention how they used to be a tight nit group with great locker room chemistry, now we are a clown car full of horse manure. I stand by the statement that Randle isn’t simply a cancer to the team, he is the cancer that cancer develops when it isn’t effective enough at killing you.

winforlose wrote:

schaffy wrote:

winforlose wrote:
I get why that would be hard to see. The problem is as a Wolves fan, Randle is harder to watch. If cancer could get cancer they should call it Randle.

Thats a little over the top. He isn't even the worst starter to watch right now with McDaniels out there.

McDaniels puts in the effort, and is struggling. Randle sits there and watches his teammates try and salvage the defense that he refuses to contribute to. This video is just a small sample of the misery that is Randle. Not to mention how they used to be a tight nit group with great locker room chemistry, now we are a clown car full of horse manure. I stand by the statement that Randle isn’t simply a cancer to the team, he is the cancer that cancer develops when it isn’t effective enough at killing you.

Watch on YouTube

We disagree on Jaden's effort levels, he has had no problems giving up on defense and just fouling a guy or doesn't attempt to go for a rebound and just lets the other team grab it. And even if we take your premise at face value that he is trying, he's been so bad that its almost worse if he is in fact trying and thats the best he can do. I get only 17 games in we are looking at some small sample size theater here but my god:

https://cleaningtheglass.com/stats/player/4772/onoff#tab-team_efficiency

As bad as Randle has been for the defense, Jaden's been that bad for the offense. And at least Randle on offense makes up some of his terrible defense. Jaden's defense is supposed to be his calling card - especially since its now pretty clear over 5 years he's at best a league average shooter - and even that hasn't been good. And certainly not enough to compensate for the trainwreck he is on offense.

schaffy wrote:

winforlose wrote:

schaffy wrote:
Thats a little over the top. He isn't even the worst starter to watch right now with McDaniels out there.

McDaniels puts in the effort, and is struggling. Randle sits there and watches his teammates try and salvage the defense that he refuses to contribute to. This video is just a small sample of the misery that is Randle. Not to mention how they used to be a tight nit group with great locker room chemistry, now we are a clown car full of horse manure. I stand by the statement that Randle isn’t simply a cancer to the team, he is the cancer that cancer develops when it isn’t effective enough at killing you.

Watch on YouTube

We disagree on Jaden's effort levels, he has had no problems giving up on defense and just fouling a guy or doesn't attempt to go for a rebound and just lets the other team grab it. And even if we take your premise at face value that he is trying, he's been so bad that its almost worse if he is in fact trying and thats the best he can do. I get only 17 games in we are looking at some small sample size theater here but my god:

https://cleaningtheglass.com/stats/player/4772/onoff#tab-team_efficiency

As bad as Randle has been for the defense, Jaden's been that bad for the offense. And at least Randle on offense makes up some of his terrible defense. Jaden's defense is supposed to be his calling card - especially since its now pretty clear over 5 years he's at best a league average shooter - and even that hasn't been good. And certainly not enough to compensate for the trainwreck he is on offense.

My long and detailed reply just got killed by the website so I will summarize in bullet points below.

1. When a player like Randle breaks the scheme, everyone’s defense looks bad. Opponents get easy layups and uncontested 3s. This is made even worse when Rudy is off the floor and Jaden is on the floor. The numbers are a function of the teams dysfunction as much as they are about Jaden individually.

2. ISO ball, hero ball, lack of structure hurt guys like Jaden. Jaden is a rhythm player. He tends to have good or bad games on offense with little ground in between. When his shot is not falling he needs to attack off the catch and either get to the rim, finish in the midrange, or move the ball off the drive. Unfortunately, the offense often leave’s McDaniels little time to do anything other than shoot, and Finch wants him to shoot those instead of driving. Some nights this is the correct call, some nights it is a disaster. Jaden is clearly streaky, but he also has a lot bigger bag than corner 3 point shooting. Bad coaching and scheme have limited him from developing that bag and this is the result.

3. Jaden is a very emotional person. Jaden is affected by things like locker room dysfunction, getting into foul trouble trying to compensate for Randle’s lack of effort and refusing to play within the defensive scheme. Jaden’s slumps are often a function of lack of confidence and inability to get going. So Finch and team leadership should be creating for him so he can. When the scheme works well on defense Jaden is often in less foul trouble and thus more in rhythm on offense. It isn’t as simple as looking at the stats. Guys like Naz thrive on minutes, guys like Jaden thrive on small victories and feeling involved on both sides of the ball.

Pick would be of interest to Nets but I assume that Randle would be moved elsewhere for other assets

Sharpe is potentially good but still raw

Excellent offensive rebounder who is developing range with his shot but fouls a lot

I actually prefer him to Clax in some ways

winforlose wrote:
My long and detailed reply just got killed by the website so I will summarize in bullet points below.

1. When a player like Randle breaks the scheme, everyone’s defense looks bad. Opponents get easy layups and uncontested 3s. This is made even worse when Rudy is off the floor and Jaden is on the floor. The numbers are a function of the teams dysfunction as much as they are about Jaden individually.

No argument there, its an absolute killer for everyone when Randle isnt where he's supposed to be and everyone thinks he will be. Randle's defense has been awful this year. And its probably still too early to actually parse individual lineups yet and get enough insights. But no question Jaden's minutes have definitely appeared to overlap quite a bit with Randles and I have no doubt thats dragging it down.

2. ISO ball, hero ball, lack of structure hurt guys like Jaden. Jaden is a rhythm player. He tends to have good or bad games on offense with little ground in between. When his shot is not falling he needs to attack off the catch and either get to the rim, finish in the midrange, or move the ball off the drive. Unfortunately, the offense often leave’s McDaniels little time to do anything other than shoot, and Finch wants him to shoot those instead of driving. Some nights this is the correct call, some nights it is a disaster. Jaden is clearly streaky, but he also has a lot bigger bag than corner 3 point shooting. Bad coaching and scheme have limited him from developing that bag and this is the result.

A lot of that might be true but he is not getting thrown a lot of grenades he has to put up late. He gets the ball with time to do something. 80% of his shots are with 7+ seconds left on the shotclock. And 45% of his shots involve touching the ball for more than 2 seconds before the shot. The only 2 rotation guys with a higher percentage of touch time are, predictably, Ant and Randle. Which leads me to believe the shots he is taking are the ones the staff wants him to take or that he feels comfortable with. But he isn't making them. Those breakdowns are also pretty similar to last year so even if you want to say that he isn't in rhythm because of this, its not a new phenomenon and at some point the onus also falls to him to work on things and figure some stuff out too.

He's also a career 36% corner shooter (its down to 30% this year), pretty pedestrian. I'd hope theres something else in his bag.

3. Jaden is a very emotional person. Jaden is affected by things like locker room dysfunction, getting into foul trouble trying to compensate for Randle’s lack of effort and refusing to play within the defensive scheme. Jaden’s slumps are often a function of lack of confidence and inability to get going. So Finch and team leadership should be creating for him so he can. When the scheme works well on defense Jaden is often in less foul trouble and thus more in rhythm on offense. It isn’t as simple as looking at the stats. Guys like Naz thrive on minutes, guys like Jaden thrive on small victories and feeling involved on both sides of the ball.

He's 4th on the team in shots, they definitely get him involved. Unfortunately so far this year, thats largely been to the detriment of the offense because he isn't hitting anything. And I certainly can appreciate how his defense fuels his offense. But this is his 5th year and 3rd as a starter, there needs to be some personal growth here. Getting into foul trouble trying to compensate for others and consistently taking yourself out of games because of that isn't helping the team at all. Discretion is the better part of valor and trying to block a layup at the rim 4 mins into the game to pick up your second foul (just a hypothetical, I'm not saying he's done this though theres probably a similar example I could find) isn't helping the team if he's so important to it. Give up the 2 points and move on to the next play.

schaffy wrote:

winforlose wrote:
My long and detailed reply just got killed by the website so I will summarize in bullet points below.

1. When a player like Randle breaks the scheme, everyone’s defense looks bad. Opponents get easy layups and uncontested 3s. This is made even worse when Rudy is off the floor and Jaden is on the floor. The numbers are a function of the teams dysfunction as much as they are about Jaden individually.

No argument there, its an absolute killer for everyone when Randle isnt where he's supposed to be and everyone thinks he will be. Randle's defense has been awful this year. And its probably still too early to actually parse individual lineups yet and get enough insights. But no question Jaden's minutes have definitely appeared to overlap quite a bit with Randles and I have no doubt thats dragging it down.

2. ISO ball, hero ball, lack of structure hurt guys like Jaden. Jaden is a rhythm player. He tends to have good or bad games on offense with little ground in between. When his shot is not falling he needs to attack off the catch and either get to the rim, finish in the midrange, or move the ball off the drive. Unfortunately, the offense often leave’s McDaniels little time to do anything other than shoot, and Finch wants him to shoot those instead of driving. Some nights this is the correct call, some nights it is a disaster. Jaden is clearly streaky, but he also has a lot bigger bag than corner 3 point shooting. Bad coaching and scheme have limited him from developing that bag and this is the result.

A lot of that might be true but he is not getting thrown a lot of grenades he has to put up late. He gets the ball with time to do something. 80% of his shots are with 7+ seconds left on the shotclock. And 45% of his shots involve touching the ball for more than 2 seconds before the shot. The only 2 rotation guys with a higher percentage of touch time are, predictably, Ant and Randle. Which leads me to believe the shots he is taking are the ones the staff wants him to take or that he feels comfortable with. But he isn't making them. Those breakdowns are also pretty similar to last year so even if you want to say that he isn't in rhythm because of this, its not a new phenomenon and at some point the onus also falls to him to work on things and figure some stuff out too.

He's also a career 36% corner shooter (its down to 30% this year), pretty pedestrian. I'd hope theres something else in his bag.

3. Jaden is a very emotional person. Jaden is affected by things like locker room dysfunction, getting into foul trouble trying to compensate for Randle’s lack of effort and refusing to play within the defensive scheme. Jaden’s slumps are often a function of lack of confidence and inability to get going. So Finch and team leadership should be creating for him so he can. When the scheme works well on defense Jaden is often in less foul trouble and thus more in rhythm on offense. It isn’t as simple as looking at the stats. Guys like Naz thrive on minutes, guys like Jaden thrive on small victories and feeling involved on both sides of the ball.

He's 4th on the team in shots, they definitely get him involved. Unfortunately so far this year, thats largely been to the detriment of the offense because he isn't hitting anything. And I certainly can appreciate how his defense fuels his offense. But this is his 5th year and 3rd as a starter, there needs to be some personal growth here. Getting into foul trouble trying to compensate for others and consistently taking yourself out of games because of that isn't helping the team at all. Discretion is the better part of valor and trying to block a layup at the rim 4 mins into the game to pick up your second foul (just a hypothetical, I'm not saying he's done this though theres probably a similar example I could find) isn't helping the team if he's so important to it. Give up the 2 points and move on to the next play.

After watching tonight’s game, you win. I cannot defend offense like that, nor the decision making to force him the ball end of game. He cannot even be on the floor end of game if he cannot hit an uncontested layup. Watching us play the last 6 minutes makes me feel like I need a drink… of bleach.