Wolves/Bulls

[Texas Chuck]

Randle
25 UTH 2nd
26 worst of IND/SAD/MIA 2nd
30 MEM 2nd (top 50 protected)
29 MIN 2nd
31 better of MIN/GSW 2nd

for

Vucevic
Dosunmu

Wolves fans seem to want another center and while he's not Towns he does some Towns like things. Ayo gives them another playable guard.

Bulls get back 4(maybe 5 but its a bad one if it conveys) 2nds, one that will be good right away and two that have solid chances at being good down the road. Randle would come in and play a major role and they could still fight for the play in while having gained some assets.

[winforlose]

Randle
25 UTH 2nd
26 worst of IND/SAD/MIA 2nd
30 MEM 2nd (top 50 protected)
29 MIN 2nd
31 better of MIN/GSW 2nd

for

Vucevic
Dosunmu

Wolves fans seem to want another center and while he's not Towns he does some Towns like things. Ayo gives them another playable guard.

Bulls get back 4(maybe 5 but its a bad one if it conveys) 2nds, one that will be good right away and two that have solid chances at being good down the road. Randle would come in and play a major role and they could still fight for the play in while having gained some assets.

Wolves overpay and have no firsts or seconds left. Randle isn’t a negative. Drop all the 2nds and replace Ayo with White and the Wolves are interested.

Also Wolves probably add Dozier if this is allowed under the CBA 2nd apron rules (Vuc + White does not exceed Randle’s cost, so adding PJ shouldn’t be aggregation, but I don’t fully understand the rules around aggregation.)

[Texas Chuck]

I mean I don't think Chicago is just going to give you White when Randle isn't better than Vucevic. But sure if you can get Chicago to just give him to you or give you Ayo for no incentive then those are great plans. They don't really take Chicago into account, just Minnesota, but....

[winforlose]

I mean I don't think Chicago is just going to give you White when Randle isn't better than Vucevic. But sure if you can get Chicago to just give him to you or give you Ayo for no incentive then those are great plans. They don't really take Chicago into account, just Minnesota, but....

Randle isn’t better than Vuc? Come on man, takes like this are just sad.

[Texas Chuck]

So they play the same minutes but Vucevic is both more productive and more efficient and plays better defense.

[winforlose]

So they play the same minutes but Vucevic is both more productive and more efficient and plays better defense.

Randle is a 2nd option on an offense that is struggling to get production out of Mike Conley and has an offensive liability in Rudy Gobert. What kind of attention does 34 year old Vuc get? Also better defense?

[jayjaysee]

I dont see Chicago doing it with Ayo inclusion. But I do still like Randle in Chicago since the team still hasn’t accepted a LaVine offer or rested Vuc/Zac or picked any kind of direction for their fans to get behind..

For Minnesota, Ayo being so cheap makes up for overpaying a backup to Rudy. So I love it for them.. but have seen their fans want a backup center, so do get the idea.

[Texas Chuck]

I mean Vuc is the 2nd option to LaVine. Are you saying he's drawing more attention than Edwards?

And I strongly disagree Chicago has better players 3-15 than the Wolves, but if that's not true Minny should probably be trading everything but Edwards and starting over. An odd choice coming off a WCF run, but hey if the roster is as bad as you imply here...

[Godaddycurse]

I think if the Bulls are trying to acquire Randle then they should be keeping Vuc to (try to) make the play-ins? Including Ayo doesn't make sense for them either way though.

[MoneyTalks41890]

Yeah I actually think the 2nds are covering for the need for a protected 1st instead that Minny doesn’t really have.

[winforlose]

I mean Vuc is the 2nd option to LaVine. Are you saying he's drawing more attention than Edwards?

And I strongly disagree Chicago has better players 3-15 than the Wolves, but if that's not true Minny should probably be trading everything but Edwards and starting over. An odd choice coming off a WCF run, but hey if the roster is as bad as you imply here...

Vuc is not the 2nd option, White is. As for the Wolves, the offense is struggling this year, not a secret. Mike Conley hit the age wall and Rudy is Rudy. Then again the bench mob of Naz, DDV, and NAW is one of the best units in the NBA. Dude your take that Vuc at 34 is a plus contract at 20 million is not at all consistent with this board. But I dare you to start a Vuc value thread with the position that Vuc is not only positive value but the 2nd best Bull on offense and plays good defense. See how well that goes over.

[Godaddycurse]

Yeah I actually think the 2nds are covering for the need for a protected 1st instead that Minny doesn’t really have.

They have the DET protected 1st

[Texas Chuck]

I mean Vuc is the 2nd option to LaVine. Are you saying he's drawing more attention than Edwards?

And I strongly disagree Chicago has better players 3-15 than the Wolves, but if that's not true Minny should probably be trading everything but Edwards and starting over. An odd choice coming off a WCF run, but hey if the roster is as bad as you imply here...

Vuc is not the 2nd option, White is. As for the Wolves, the offense is struggling this year, not a secret. Mike Conley hit the age wall and Rudy is Rudy. Then again the bench mob of Naz, DDV, and NAW is one of the best units in the NBA. Dude your take that Vuc at 34 is a plus contract at 20 million is not at all consistent with this board. But I dare you to start a Vuc value thread with the position that Vuc is not only positive value but the 2nd best Bull on offense and plays good defense. See how well that goes over.

I simply pointed out he is more productive than Randle (factually accurate though its close), more efficient(factually accurate) and plays better defense(factually accurate). I do think he has a small bit of positive value. His contract is small and his level of play is good.

I didn't sell him as some great defender, nobody thinks he is. But the bar to cross is Julius Randle which is not a big one lol.

[shrink]

After going 5-for-6 in an upset win over HOU, Randle is now shooting 38.2% 3P on 4.6 3PA. That’s fine.

Over his last three, Randle is 10-18 3P, 10.3 RPG, 7.7 APG, 23.0 PPG. That’s better than fine.


I think there is a common internet misperception that if a star player isn’t a superstar, his big contract is an overpay and he sucks. People said the same thing about Towns. But Randle does not suck, and at $33 mil this year, and a $31 mil player option next year, he is not overpaid in today’s economics.

I don’t think this is an unfair offer, but it’s one I would hope Connelly would decline. Many Wolves fans were desperate to move Randle when he didn’t immediately fit in, but he and DiVincenzo are showing improvement. Randle still loses his man on defense sometimes, and the ball gets sticky with him .. but both are not unforgivable sins, and are complaints that fairer Wolves fans could level against Ant. I don’t think MIN can afford to disrupt their chemistry again without a clear improvement, and I expect Randle to finish the season in MIN, and be part of a sign-and-trade this summer for a decent rotation player on a smaller deal and some payroll relief.

[Texas Chuck]

For the record I never said nor implied Randle sucks. In fact in my reasoning for Chicago I talked about how Randle could help them continue to fight for the playin.

Was simply responding that Vuc is also a good player. I don't understand why everything has to go to such extremes all the time lol.

[winforlose]

I mean Vuc is the 2nd option to LaVine. Are you saying he's drawing more attention than Edwards?

And I strongly disagree Chicago has better players 3-15 than the Wolves, but if that's not true Minny should probably be trading everything but Edwards and starting over. An odd choice coming off a WCF run, but hey if the roster is as bad as you imply here...

Vuc is not the 2nd option, White is. As for the Wolves, the offense is struggling this year, not a secret. Mike Conley hit the age wall and Rudy is Rudy. Then again the bench mob of Naz, DDV, and NAW is one of the best units in the NBA. Dude your take that Vuc at 34 is a plus contract at 20 million is not at all consistent with this board. But I dare you to start a Vuc value thread with the position that Vuc is not only positive value but the 2nd best Bull on offense and plays good defense. See how well that goes over.

I simply pointed out he is more productive than Randle (factually accurate though its close), more efficient(factually accurate) and plays better defense(factually accurate). I do think he has a small bit of positive value. His contract is small and his level of play is good.

I didn't sell him as some great defender, nobody thinks he is. But the bar to cross is Julius Randle which is not a big one lol.

He is 34 and having his best season in years, 30 games in. He is not the 2nd option and is benefiting from having Lavine back. It is apples and oranges. Randle is often double teamed, how often is Vuc facing that kind of pressure? Can Vuc create for himself? Can Vuc create for others? He is making 20 this year and 21 next year at age 35. To make the argument that Vuc has more trade value than Randle and that the Wolves should acquire him as such knowing that Vuc would play behind Rudy (unless you think he is better than Rudy,) is disingenuous at best. As for the defense, show me the metrics.

[Texas Chuck]

I didn't value him much more than Randle and the reason I did was because the salary difference allows the Wolves to get Ayo back which felt like a worthy addition.

But hey you are happy with Randle and think Vuc is only good because he gets to play with LaVine(again Edwards is better, no?) and so this trade is not for you. That's cool.

But sometimes players not currently on the Wolves are also good at basketball.

[winforlose]

I didn't value him much more than Randle and the reason I did was because the salary difference allows the Wolves to get Ayo back which felt like a worthy addition.

But hey you are happy with Randle and think Vuc is only good because he gets to play with LaVine(again Edwards is better, no?) and so this trade is not for you. That's cool.

But sometimes players not currently on the Wolves are also good at basketball.

1. Of course other teams have good players. This is a trade board. I am making suggestions based on that premise. But thanks for the reminder

2. The Wolves need people who can create their own offense. I reference Lavine being back as a comparison to his prior years. He benefits from creators. Ant is a creator, but with KAT gone and Mike on the decline Randle is the only other true creator in the starting 5. You don’t trade that for a guy who becomes a backup playing 20 minutes a game (he cannot play with Rudy, and unless you think he is more important than Rudy your not cutting Rudy’s minutes.) Value is about fit and need as much as it’s about talent. Randle on 33 and 31 is a good contract. Randle doesn’t fit well with the Wolves defense scheme, but that doesn’t mean he is a negative value player.

3. You keep trying to justify your take with raw numbers absent context. Maxey puts up great numbers, take Embiid away and he loses games. How great would Aaron Gordon be without Joker? Vuc facing the same attention that Randle gets sees a massive drop in his production. Unless of course you are claiming that Vuc is facing that same level of pressure?

P.S how is Ayo’s floor spacing. We need someone who can play with Rudy and space for Ant like Mike Conley did last year. Ayo is shooting 32% this year career 36% on low volume. Why suggest a trade that doesn’t address their needs or make them better?

[shrink]

For the record I never said nor implied Randle sucks. In fact in my reasoning for Chicago I talked about how Randle could help them continue to fight for the playin.

Was simply responding that Vuc is also a good player. I don't understand why everything has to go to such extremes all the time lol.

I appreciated that, and made sure to say that I thought your trade was reasonable. It also addresses a couple of major issues for the team right now - no back up center if Rudy goes down, and the need for more passing and ball control.

I’ve just been reading a lot of Randle trades on the MIN board and on other forums these last few weeks, and kind of used this thread to say my piece to the board to the best and most influential trade posters, hoping for trickle down. I didn’t have any issue with your trade offer.

[winforlose]

For the record I never said nor implied Randle sucks. In fact in my reasoning for Chicago I talked about how Randle could help them continue to fight for the playin.

Was simply responding that Vuc is also a good player. I don't understand why everything has to go to such extremes all the time lol.

I appreciated that, and made sure to say that I thought your trade was reasonable. It also addresses a couple of major issues for the team right now - no back up center if Rudy goes down, and the need for more passing and ball control.

I’ve just been reading a lot of Randle trades on the MIN board and on other forums these last few weeks, and kind of used this thread to say my piece to the board to the best and most influential trade posters, hoping for trickle down. I didn’t have any issue with your trade offer.

Shrink, you think this is reasonable?

1. You think TC is gonna empty all the 2nds on a follow up move dumping Randle? You do realize that leaves one pick which may or not convey and nothing else.

2. Ayo isn’t a PG or a floor spacer. How does that address the issue of needing a starting PG and offensive creator next to Ant?

3. Vuc is a tough pill for the Wolves to swallow at 20 and then 21. You take him as salary relief for the Bulls, but you don’t look at a 34 year old C turning 35 under contract next year and say he has the same production capabilities with us as the Bulls. They are built differently, run a different offense, and have a more offensive focus. Naz and Vuc as the 4/5 is something that will be defensively challenged.

The Wolves are better as is then they are after this deal.