Weird idea turned into a weird trade

[winforlose]

Minnesota out: Joe Ingles, Det 2025 pick.
Minnesota in: Detroit 2028 first round pick same protections as the outgoing pick and Jose Alverado

Detroit out: Det 2028 pick same protections as 2025 and 2 2nds.
Detroit in: Det 2025 pick

Pelicans out: Jose Alverado
Pelicans in: Joe Ingles, 2 2nds from Detroit

Obviously the 2nds would need to be pinned down. I just wanted peoples thoughts on the value idea. Pistons regain the ability to trade this years pick and sacrifice a protected pick during a likely more successful time. Detroit can use the extra flexibility of having their pick back to make whatever trade they want or to help secure Butler.

[Texas Chuck]

So Minnesota benefits the most from pushing the pick back and they get a player upgrade as a bonus?

Detroit doesn't need their pick back so they aren't going to pay for Minnesota to get GTA.



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[Godaddycurse]

Detroit is looking like they are going to keep their pick this year even if tehy make play-in. i think they prefer to convey it next year as a playoff team and get rid of the obligation for good

[MoneyTalks41890]

Yeah I don’t see Detroit wanting to prolong this obligation. Weaver has been let go so no need to protect the GM from himself any longer.

Now, if you want to give Detroit some value, you could add protections to the next two years, or otherwise mess with the existing protections.

But this is Minny double dipping on value.

[winforlose]

Detroit is looking like they are going to keep their pick this year even if tehy make play-in. i think they prefer to convey it next year as a playoff team and get rid of the obligation for good

Fair, but that also means they cannot trade it this year, or next year. The push back lowers the value because any team in a rebuild is very likely to be improved by then. Most likely it conveys in let’s say 2028 in the mid 20s instead of high teens or low 20s. Meanwhile Detroit has access to the picks that are otherwise tied down by possible role over.

@Texas Chuck, are you really saying you don’t see increased value in having immediate access to 2025, and 2026 then 2028 and 2029. Picks are more valuable the closer you get to the day. As for not needing to trade it, of course they don’t NEED to. But it is an extra tool in pursuing Jimmy, or any other target.

Also remember that making the playoffs is good for developing the young guys, and it is easier with a talent upgrade than by continuing along. Now if you want to expand the trade to include value, make a suggestion.

Edit to add: If you want to discharge the first all together, come up with a proposal for that as well. Jose isn’t worth a first, and a first is more valuable than 2 seconds, so how do you bridge the gap?

[nykballa2k4]

Detroit is looking like they are going to keep their pick this year even if tehy make play-in. i think they prefer to convey it next year as a playoff team and get rid of the obligation for good

Fair, but that also means they cannot trade it this year, or next year. The push back lowers the value because any team in a rebuild is very likely to be improved by then. Most likely it conveys in let’s say 2028 in the mid 20s instead of high teens or low 20s. Meanwhile Detroit has access to the picks that are otherwise tied down by possible role over.

@Texas Chuck, are you really saying you don’t see increased value in having immediate access to 2025, and 2026 then 2028 and 2029. Picks are more valuable the closer you get to the day. As for not needing to trade it, of course they don’t NEED to. But it is an extra tool in pursuing Jimmy, or any other target.

Also remember that making the playoffs is good for developing the young guys, and it is easier with a talent upgrade than by continuing along. Now if you want to expand the trade to include value, make a suggestion.

Edit to add: If you want to discharge the first all together, come up with a proposal for that as well. Jose isn’t worth a first, and a first is more valuable than 2 seconds, so how do you bridge the gap?

The solve there is through pick currency
Ingles, the current DET pick to NoLa for Alvarado and SRP (number of which depending on quality of SRP dealt).

[winforlose]

Detroit is looking like they are going to keep their pick this year even if tehy make play-in. i think they prefer to convey it next year as a playoff team and get rid of the obligation for good

Fair, but that also means they cannot trade it this year, or next year. The push back lowers the value because any team in a rebuild is very likely to be improved by then. Most likely it conveys in let’s say 2028 in the mid 20s instead of high teens or low 20s. Meanwhile Detroit has access to the picks that are otherwise tied down by possible role over.

@Texas Chuck, are you really saying you don’t see increased value in having immediate access to 2025, and 2026 then 2028 and 2029. Picks are more valuable the closer you get to the day. As for not needing to trade it, of course they don’t NEED to. But it is an extra tool in pursuing Jimmy, or any other target.

Also remember that making the playoffs is good for developing the young guys, and it is easier with a talent upgrade than by continuing along. Now if you want to expand the trade to include value, make a suggestion.

Edit to add: If you want to discharge the first all together, come up with a proposal for that as well. Jose isn’t worth a first, and a first is more valuable than 2 seconds, so how do you bridge the gap?

The solve there is through pick currency
Ingles, the current DET pick to NoLa for Alvarado and SRP (number of which depending on quality of SRP dealt).

This is true, and I thought about it. But the pick is more valuable to Detroit than it is to NOLA. They cannot properly trade a whole mess of picks now because of the obligation. If they shift the obligation to later those picks spring open and now they can better position their roster to make the playoffs.

[nykballa2k4]

Fair, but that also means they cannot trade it this year, or next year. The push back lowers the value because any team in a rebuild is very likely to be improved by then. Most likely it conveys in let’s say 2028 in the mid 20s instead of high teens or low 20s. Meanwhile Detroit has access to the picks that are otherwise tied down by possible role over.

@Texas Chuck, are you really saying you don’t see increased value in having immediate access to 2025, and 2026 then 2028 and 2029. Picks are more valuable the closer you get to the day. As for not needing to trade it, of course they don’t NEED to. But it is an extra tool in pursuing Jimmy, or any other target.

Also remember that making the playoffs is good for developing the young guys, and it is easier with a talent upgrade than by continuing along. Now if you want to expand the trade to include value, make a suggestion.

Edit to add: If you want to discharge the first all together, come up with a proposal for that as well. Jose isn’t worth a first, and a first is more valuable than 2 seconds, so how do you bridge the gap?

The solve there is through pick currency
Ingles, the current DET pick to NoLa for Alvarado and SRP (number of which depending on quality of SRP dealt).

This is true, and I thought about it. But the pick is more valuable to Detroit than it is to NOLA. They cannot properly trade a whole mess of picks now because of the obligation. If they shift the obligation to later those picks spring open and now they can better position their roster to make the playoffs.

I don't know if that is true. You think they would want that, but I see reasons why they don't care.
If that pick conveys this year, then they are all freed up. Delaying it actually causes a whole mess.
Functionally, they can also trade FRP with the contingency of "if x pick conveys" so they really change absolutely nothing.
The only thing you can sell me on is maybe DET would like to drop protections (top 10 let's say?) so they can have a clean slate in the summer. Even then, really no incentive. Better for them to wait until draft day to see what they want.

If you were just trading them back their pick for a player or another teams similar pick -- then that's another conversation, but for them to swap out their own protected picks is a mess for everyone.

[winforlose]

The solve there is through pick currency
Ingles, the current DET pick to NoLa for Alvarado and SRP (number of which depending on quality of SRP dealt).

This is true, and I thought about it. But the pick is more valuable to Detroit than it is to NOLA. They cannot properly trade a whole mess of picks now because of the obligation. If they shift the obligation to later those picks spring open and now they can better position their roster to make the playoffs.

I don't know if that is true. You think they would want that, but I see reasons why they don't care.
If that pick conveys this year, then they are all freed up. Delaying it actually causes a whole mess.
Functionally, they can also trade FRP with the contingency of "if x pick conveys" so they really change absolutely nothing.
The only thing you can sell me on is maybe DET would like to drop protections (top 10 let's say?) so they can have a clean slate in the summer. Even then, really no incentive. Better for them to wait until draft day to see what they want.

If you were just trading them back their pick for a player or another teams similar pick -- then that's another conversation, but for them to swap out their own protected picks is a mess for everyone.

Hence why it is a weird idea and a weird trade. If Nola had someone that Detroit wanted, or vice versa, this gets easier. The funny part is I am trying to add value to Detroit and it doesn’t seem to be working.

[Scoot McGroot]

Right now, Detroit could deal picks from 2027 on, with the caveat "to be conveyed 2 drafts after pick conveys to Minnesota" kind of stuff. So, they just can't deal their 2025 (already owed) or 2026 1sts right now.

If Detroit swaps the 2025 for a 2028 protected, they then can't trade their 2027, 2028 (traded in this scenario), or 2029 1sts, and have the same rollovers going forward that they have now. Technically, it limits Detroit even more than they are now?

[winforlose]

Right now, Detroit could deal picks from 2027 on, with the caveat "to be conveyed 2 drafts after pick conveys to Minnesota" kind of stuff. So, they just can't deal their 2025 (already owed) or 2026 1sts right now.

If Detroit swaps the 2025 for a 2028 protected, they then can't trade their 2027, 2028 (traded in this scenario), or 2029 1sts, and have the same rollovers going forward that they have now. Technically, it limits Detroit even more than they are now?

I see what you’re saying. The back end of the Stapien rule entangles another year. If they owned another first in 27 or 28 than it wouldn’t matter, but because they don’t then it actually ties up the additional year. Which means my suggestion only makes sense in the context of an existing deal between the Pistons and team X for Detroit’s pick this year or next.

Edit to fix: upon further reflection you were incorrect. If the pick conveys in 2026 than 2027 is locked. So currently they cannot move 25/26/27 or the 2nds in 27 and 28.

[nykballa2k4]

This is true, and I thought about it. But the pick is more valuable to Detroit than it is to NOLA. They cannot properly trade a whole mess of picks now because of the obligation. If they shift the obligation to later those picks spring open and now they can better position their roster to make the playoffs.

I don't know if that is true. You think they would want that, but I see reasons why they don't care.
If that pick conveys this year, then they are all freed up. Delaying it actually causes a whole mess.
Functionally, they can also trade FRP with the contingency of "if x pick conveys" so they really change absolutely nothing.
The only thing you can sell me on is maybe DET would like to drop protections (top 10 let's say?) so they can have a clean slate in the summer. Even then, really no incentive. Better for them to wait until draft day to see what they want.

If you were just trading them back their pick for a player or another teams similar pick -- then that's another conversation, but for them to swap out their own protected picks is a mess for everyone.

Hence why it is a weird idea and a weird trade. If Nola had someone that Detroit wanted, or vice versa, this gets easier. The funny part is I am trying to add value to Detroit and it doesn’t seem to be working.

Because there is no value added.

With your cap situation where it is you actually would prefer early SRP to late FRP anyhow. Cheaper for the cap. Pick #33 > #29

[oldncreaky]

The last thing DET (or any team that hasn't made the playoffs in years) should be doing is trades where they trade FRPs for talent

The one good thing about Weaver trading away a (protected) FRP at the beginning of his rebuild in 2020 is that it made it a bit more difficult for him to double down and send out FRPs in trades, so of course Weaver mindlessly sent out SRPs like they were Swag Bags at the Oscars. Fortunately for DET fans, Weaver has been replaced by GM Langdon, who so far has been a lot more cap savvy

The pick debt will die soon. Maybe this year; more likely next year, possibly 2027. In the meantime, we have lots and lots of cap space available, on auction to the highest bidder, and we are looking for either picks or a good young player still on their rookie contract in return.

[winforlose]

The last thing DET (or any team that hasn't made the playoffs in years) should be doing is trades where they trade FRPs for talent

The one good thing about Weaver trading away a (protected) FRP at the beginning of his rebuild in 2020 is that it made it a bit more difficult for him to double down and send out FRPs in trades, so of course Weaver mindlessly sent out SRPs like they were Swag Bags at the Oscars. Fortunately for DET fans, Weaver has been replaced by GM Langdon, who so far has been a lot more cap savvy

The pick debt will die soon. Maybe this year; more likely next year, possibly 2027. In the meantime, we have lots and lots of cap space available, on auction to the highest bidder, and we are looking for either picks or a good young player still on their rookie contract in return.

I think there has been some confusion in the posts above. The goal of this trade is to allow the Pistons the flexibility to trade picks 25 or 26 to accelerate the rebuild timeline and make the playoffs. The goal being to get Cade, Duren, Sasser, Thompson, ect…, post season experience. With the Magic hurt, the Bulls looking to blow things up, and the Heat maybe taking a step back, the path to the 5 or 6 in the east is more friendly than ever. As it stands if you keep your pick it is because you missed the playoffs and you didn’t get that extra development for these guys while they are still cheap. That is part of building the winning culture and not ending up back in the “we will go all out next year” trap.

[oldncreaky]

The last thing DET (or any team that hasn't made the playoffs in years) should be doing is trades where they trade FRPs for talent

The one good thing about Weaver trading away a (protected) FRP at the beginning of his rebuild in 2020 is that it made it a bit more difficult for him to double down and send out FRPs in trades, so of course Weaver mindlessly sent out SRPs like they were Swag Bags at the Oscars. Fortunately for DET fans, Weaver has been replaced by GM Langdon, who so far has been a lot more cap savvy

The pick debt will die soon. Maybe this year; more likely next year, possibly 2027. In the meantime, we have lots and lots of cap space available, on auction to the highest bidder, and we are looking for either picks or a good young player still on their rookie contract in return.

I think there has been some confusion in the posts above. The goal of this trade is to allow the Pistons the flexibility to trade picks 25 or 26 to accelerate the rebuild timeline and make the playoffs. The goal being to get Cade, Duren, Sasser, Thompson, ect…, post season experience. With the Magic hurt, the Bulls looking to blow things up, and the Heat maybe taking a step back, the path to the 5 or 6 in the east is more friendly than ever. As it stands if you keep your pick it is because you missed the playoffs and you didn’t get that extra development for these guys while they are still cheap. That is part of building the winning culture and not ending up back in the “we will go all out next year” trap.

I understand the goal. I just disagree with it.

DET doesn't have a single significant asset over age 23. We shouldn't be accelerating anything, let alone giving up assets for it. After years of GMs trying to "accelerate the rebuild" we finally have a GM who seems competent and talks about patience.

And while we were looking like a good bet for the play-in, with Ivey's injury I'd just prefer to ride it out and let the picks fall wherever they end up.

[winforlose]

The last thing DET (or any team that hasn't made the playoffs in years) should be doing is trades where they trade FRPs for talent

The one good thing about Weaver trading away a (protected) FRP at the beginning of his rebuild in 2020 is that it made it a bit more difficult for him to double down and send out FRPs in trades, so of course Weaver mindlessly sent out SRPs like they were Swag Bags at the Oscars. Fortunately for DET fans, Weaver has been replaced by GM Langdon, who so far has been a lot more cap savvy

The pick debt will die soon. Maybe this year; more likely next year, possibly 2027. In the meantime, we have lots and lots of cap space available, on auction to the highest bidder, and we are looking for either picks or a good young player still on their rookie contract in return.

I think there has been some confusion in the posts above. The goal of this trade is to allow the Pistons the flexibility to trade picks 25 or 26 to accelerate the rebuild timeline and make the playoffs. The goal being to get Cade, Duren, Sasser, Thompson, ect…, post season experience. With the Magic hurt, the Bulls looking to blow things up, and the Heat maybe taking a step back, the path to the 5 or 6 in the east is more friendly than ever. As it stands if you keep your pick it is because you missed the playoffs and you didn’t get that extra development for these guys while they are still cheap. That is part of building the winning culture and not ending up back in the “we will go all out next year” trap.

I understand the goal. I just disagree with it.

DET doesn't have a single significant asset over age 23. We shouldn't be accelerating anything, let alone giving up assets for it. After years of GMs trying to "accelerate the rebuild" we finally have a GM who seems competent and talks about patience.

And while we were looking like a good bet for the play-in, with Ivey's injury I'd just prefer to ride it out and let the picks fall wherever they end up.

Fair enough. This is just a respectful disagreement about the concept of the rebuild. My follow up question would be at what point do you push to build the culture of winning and going to the post season?

[Scoot McGroot]

Right now, Detroit could deal picks from 2027 on, with the caveat "to be conveyed 2 drafts after pick conveys to Minnesota" kind of stuff. So, they just can't deal their 2025 (already owed) or 2026 1sts right now.

If Detroit swaps the 2025 for a 2028 protected, they then can't trade their 2027, 2028 (traded in this scenario), or 2029 1sts, and have the same rollovers going forward that they have now. Technically, it limits Detroit even more than they are now?

I see what you’re saying. The back end of the Stapien rule entangles another year. If they owned another first in 27 or 28 than it wouldn’t matter, but because they don’t then it actually ties up the additional year. Which means my suggestion only makes sense in the context of an existing deal between the Pistons and team X for Detroit’s pick this year or next.

Edit to fix: upon further reflection you were incorrect. If the pick conveys in 2026 than 2027 is locked. So currently they cannot move 25/26/27 or the 2nds in 27 and 28.

Bold and bold.

They can currently move 27 with the caveat "not to be conveyed until 2 drafts after a pick has been conveyed to Minnesota..."

So, they can trade the 27 right now. It just may not convey in 27, and may push back to 28. Just like if they trade the 28 with the same caveats now, they can trade the 2030, with those caveats added. Or else, in your scenario, then Detroit would be swapping the inflexibility now to not being able to swap any of 27/28/29/30/31, as the first could push back.

[oldncreaky]

I think there has been some confusion in the posts above. The goal of this trade is to allow the Pistons the flexibility to trade picks 25 or 26 to accelerate the rebuild timeline and make the playoffs. The goal being to get Cade, Duren, Sasser, Thompson, ect…, post season experience. With the Magic hurt, the Bulls looking to blow things up, and the Heat maybe taking a step back, the path to the 5 or 6 in the east is more friendly than ever. As it stands if you keep your pick it is because you missed the playoffs and you didn’t get that extra development for these guys while they are still cheap. That is part of building the winning culture and not ending up back in the “we will go all out next year” trap.

I understand the goal. I just disagree with it.

DET doesn't have a single significant asset over age 23. We shouldn't be accelerating anything, let alone giving up assets for it. After years of GMs trying to "accelerate the rebuild" we finally have a GM who seems competent and talks about patience.

And while we were looking like a good bet for the play-in, with Ivey's injury I'd just prefer to ride it out and let the picks fall wherever they end up.

Fair enough. This is just a respectful disagreement about the concept of the rebuild. My follow up question would be at what point do you push to build the culture of winning and going to the post season?

Fair question

I'd say it is time to accelerate when a team is either
1) middle of the pack and rising
or
2) middle of the pack, and with a significant surplus of draft picks (more than can be developed)

Despite DETs nearly .500 record, I don't think DET qualifies under either condition. I think we should still be in asset accumulation mode, especially since we are the league's only team with significant ability to accept bad contracts this TDL

[Scoot McGroot]

I think there has been some confusion in the posts above. The goal of this trade is to allow the Pistons the flexibility to trade picks 25 or 26 to accelerate the rebuild timeline and make the playoffs. The goal being to get Cade, Duren, Sasser, Thompson, ect…, post season experience. With the Magic hurt, the Bulls looking to blow things up, and the Heat maybe taking a step back, the path to the 5 or 6 in the east is more friendly than ever. As it stands if you keep your pick it is because you missed the playoffs and you didn’t get that extra development for these guys while they are still cheap. That is part of building the winning culture and not ending up back in the “we will go all out next year” trap.

I understand the goal. I just disagree with it.

DET doesn't have a single significant asset over age 23. We shouldn't be accelerating anything, let alone giving up assets for it. After years of GMs trying to "accelerate the rebuild" we finally have a GM who seems competent and talks about patience.

And while we were looking like a good bet for the play-in, with Ivey's injury I'd just prefer to ride it out and let the picks fall wherever they end up.

Fair enough. This is just a respectful disagreement about the concept of the rebuild. My follow up question would be at what point do you push to build the culture of winning and going to the post season?

They've already won more games this year than all of last season. And as many as the year before that. And they're only 6 wins away from tying their best win total since 2018-19. I think we can let them have "one year" of building before just throwing the accelerator all the way down? Like, letting this team just keep playing and figuring itself out for one year makes a ton of sense before really pushing hard for the playoffs? Like, they might make the playoffs anyway. Or at least the play-in.

[winforlose]

Right now, Detroit could deal picks from 2027 on, with the caveat "to be conveyed 2 drafts after pick conveys to Minnesota" kind of stuff. So, they just can't deal their 2025 (already owed) or 2026 1sts right now.

If Detroit swaps the 2025 for a 2028 protected, they then can't trade their 2027, 2028 (traded in this scenario), or 2029 1sts, and have the same rollovers going forward that they have now. Technically, it limits Detroit even more than they are now?

I see what you’re saying. The back end of the Stapien rule entangles another year. If they owned another first in 27 or 28 than it wouldn’t matter, but because they don’t then it actually ties up the additional year. Which means my suggestion only makes sense in the context of an existing deal between the Pistons and team X for Detroit’s pick this year or next.

Edit to fix: upon further reflection you were incorrect. If the pick conveys in 2026 than 2027 is locked. So currently they cannot move 25/26/27 or the 2nds in 27 and 28.

Bold and bold.

They can currently move 27 with the caveat "not to be conveyed until 2 drafts after a pick has been conveyed to Minnesota..."

So, they can trade the 27 right now. It just may not convey in 27, and may push back to 28. Just like if they trade the 28 with the same caveats now, they can trade the 2030, with those caveats added. Or else, in your scenario, then Detroit would be swapping the inflexibility now to not being able to swap any of 27/28/29/30/31, as the first could push back.

Except further down the rebuild line the pick is much more likely to convey in 28 in the late 20s and then they only lose 29 to the Stapien rule. Whereas this season without further reinforcements and having lost Ivey, they likely don’t convey the pick till next year, and that also freezes 27 (does not convey,) which lowers that picks value. It all depends on how Detroit wants to proceed with culture building. Do you continue the tank as long as possible until it no longer makes sense, or do you say we have a solid core of young players and an opportunity to start getting post season experience. If the former, don’t make my trade, if the latter, start looking at talent to bring in to get the 5 or 6 seed, start playing to make the culture a playoff culture, and assume that by 2028 your young guys are going to be perennial playoff performers.