Detroit - Utah

[Godaddycurse]

Detroit trade: Harris
Utah trade: Collins, Clarkson (into capspace)

Why for Detroit: upgrade PF and add a combo guard off the bench
Why for Utah: get out of clarkson's contract

as usual add 2nd(s) either direction as see fit

[SkyHook]

This probably works. Any interest in adding Moore + a lotto-protected FRP to upgrade the deal from Clarkson to Sexton?

[tmorgan]

We aren’t trading a first for upgrades this year unless Langdon loses his mind.

I do want Sexton (my favorite of all the combo guards discussed), but unless a package of Sasser, Moore, Tor 2025 second, and another lesser second or two is enough, I’d pass. We’re a great story, but adding one solid guard isn’t going to make us playoffs competitive with a Boston or Cleveland (or likely New York, despite recent success). It’s still a building year, wins or not.

[Godaddycurse]

We aren’t trading a first for upgrades this year unless Langdon loses his mind.

yea its too early for detroit to commit FRPs. hence OP of just using capspace

[tmorgan]

We aren’t trading a first for upgrades this year unless Langdon loses his mind.

yea its too early for detroit to commit FRPs. hence OP of just using capspace

Was responding to the post above.

Personally. I don’t want to deal with Clarkson’s 14 mil next year. If we’re going to add a guard that runs past this season, it needs to be someone at least as good as Jaden Ivey, either to push him harder or because they’ll have real trade value next year. Clarkson is not as good as Ivey. Sexton is better than Ivey. Big difference.

[Godaddycurse]

We aren’t trading a first for upgrades this year unless Langdon loses his mind.

yea its too early for detroit to commit FRPs. hence OP of just using capspace

Was responding to the post above.

Personally. I don’t want to deal with Clarkson’s 14 mil next year. If we’re going to add a guard that runs past this season, it needs to be someone at least as good as Jaden Ivey, either to push him harder or because they’ll have real trade value next year. Clarkson is not as good as Ivey. Sexton is better than Ivey. Big difference.

I see it the opposite way. Sexton will be gunning for a new contract and wont be happy being on the bench behind ivey and cade. Realistically you're not going to keep both ivey and Sexton long term imo. Clarkson would be much more content in bench role and is good salary filler next year

[SkyHook]

yea its too early for detroit to commit FRPs. hence OP of just using capspace

Was responding to the post above.

Personally. I don’t want to deal with Clarkson’s 14 mil next year. If we’re going to add a guard that runs past this season, it needs to be someone at least as good as Jaden Ivey, either to push him harder or because they’ll have real trade value next year. Clarkson is not as good as Ivey. Sexton is better than Ivey. Big difference.

I see it the opposite way. Sexton will be gunning for a new contract and wont be happy being on the bench behind ivey and cade. Realistically you're not going to keep both ivey and Sexton long term imo. Clarkson would be much more content in bench role and is good salary filler next year

I like Ivey, but there really isn't a case to say that he's been definitely better than Sexton — this season or ever.

[SkyHook]

We aren’t trading a first for upgrades this year unless Langdon loses his mind.

I do want Sexton (my favorite of all the combo guards discussed), but unless a package of Sasser, Moore, Tor 2025 second, and another lesser second or two is enough, I’d pass. We’re a great story, but adding one solid guard isn’t going to make us playoffs competitive with a Boston or Cleveland (or likely New York, despite recent success). It’s still a building year, wins or not.

Tobias Harris, 66th percentile EPM (O-64, D-70), $35.4MM + $26.6MM
Jaden Ivey, 54 EPM (O-74, D-17), $8.0MM + $10.1MM

for

John Collins, 69 EPM (O-81, D-31), $26.6MM + $26.6MM
Collin Sexton, 70 EPM (O-87, D-12), $18.4MM + $19.0MM

Detroit upgrades two positions (drastically this season) without spending any draft assets, greatly increasing their odds of a top-6 seed or beyond.

Utah drastically improves their odds of having the worst record and banks on a bounce back year for Ivey.

[tmorgan]

Good lord no. We’re not trading Ivey.

[SkyHook]

Good lord no. We’re not trading Ivey.

Okay. You just got done saying that Sexton is better than Ivey and no one wants to give up draft assets, so I figured that this was a compromise for two upgrades. Moving on.

[tmorgan]

If we can get Sexton at a reasonable price, it creates zero problems. He’s super easily tradable as a good young player and an expiring next year. If he really kills it and we love him, you then think about trading Ivey — once he recovers and reasserts his value. Trading him injured as a depressed asset is really dumb —- makes the org look bad and is just bad business value-wise.

I’m under no disillusions that we’ll get Sexton cheaply, and this may be just that. But it’s a move I’d make, even if it’s three or four seconds plus Sasser and Moore. Just no other guaranteed good seconds besides 25 Tor.

[SkyHook]

If we can get Sexton at a reasonable price, it creates zero problems. He’s super easily tradable as a good young player and an expiring next year. If he really kills it and we love him, you then think about trading Ivey — once he recovers and reasserts his value. Trading him injured as a depressed asset is really dumb —- makes the org look bad and is just bad business value-wise.

I’m under no disillusions that we’ll get Sexton cheaply, and this may be just that. But it’s a move I’d make, even if it’s three or four seconds plus Sasser and Moore. Just no other guaranteed good seconds besides 25 Tor.

Okay, but I wasn't valuing Ivey as a depressed asset here. Better contract + RFA (Ivey) for a better player (Sexton) alongside equal contracts for a better player (Collins).

[tmorgan]

Also, Harris is 25 mil this year, not 35. I assume that’s just a typo.

[tmorgan]

Ivey pre-injury is a lot more valuable than Sexton. A lot. The many years of additional control, the age/likely improvement difference.

If he wasn’t hurt, Ivey and Tobias is worth considerably more than Sexton and Collins. To me, at least.

[SkyHook]

Ivey pre-injury is a lot more valuable than Sexton. A lot. The many years of additional control, the age/likely improvement difference.

If he wasn’t hurt, Ivey and Tobias is worth considerably more than Sexton and Collins. To me, at least.

We'll have to agree to disagree. Good chat.

[tmorgan]

Or, to put it another way:

No one in their right mind has us winning a playoff series. We’d have to play well enough to avoid the three clearly better teams, meaning the 4th or 5th seed. Tho your trade would increase the chances of that, and getting to the second round would be amazing, but not at the cost of our second best asset.

Because that’s what Ivey is. I’m not his biggest fan, but we’re mostly a bunch of solid parts and then Cade. But Ivey, unlike the rest of those parts (possibly excepting Ausar and Holland), has potential to be a star. It’s not likely, but you can’t teach what he has.

I just hope someone can teach what he has to play better defense. No excuses for a guy that athletic to struggle as badly as he does defensively.

[oldncreaky]

I like Ivey, but there really isn't a case to say that he's been definitely better than Sexton — this season or ever.

Or, to put it another way:

No one in their right mind has us winning a playoff series. We’d have to play well enough to avoid the three clearly better teams, meaning the 4th or 5th seed. Tho your trade would increase the chances of that, and getting to the second round would be amazing, but not at the cost of our second best asset.

Because that’s what Ivey is. I’m not his biggest fan, but we’re mostly a bunch of solid parts and then Cade. But Ivey, unlike the rest of those parts (possibly excepting Ausar and Holland), has potential to be a star. It’s not likely, but you can’t teach what he has.

I just hope someone can teach what he has to play better defense. No excuses for a guy that athletic to struggle as badly as he does defensively.

I'll co-sign this

I accept that Sexton is a significantly better player right now

I accept that Ivey could still bust out, and not deserve a starting position in a few years. The utter lack of BBall IQ he often exhibits on court is probably more frustrating than any player I recall watching.

But Ivey's ceiling is really high -- like, perennial All-star or better. Much higher than our Thompson twin (or the other twin for that matter) because he's just as athletic with a lot more skill. Faster than most small guards, stronger than most small forwards. Great shot mechanics, potential 3 level scorer. Shows flashes on D, mostly based on his athletic ability, even though he gets lost more than any other player I can recall.

And he was taking significant steps this year before the injury . . .

[SkyHook]

I like Ivey, but there really isn't a case to say that he's been definitely better than Sexton — this season or ever.

Or, to put it another way:

No one in their right mind has us winning a playoff series. We’d have to play well enough to avoid the three clearly better teams, meaning the 4th or 5th seed. Tho your trade would increase the chances of that, and getting to the second round would be amazing, but not at the cost of our second best asset.

Because that’s what Ivey is. I’m not his biggest fan, but we’re mostly a bunch of solid parts and then Cade. But Ivey, unlike the rest of those parts (possibly excepting Ausar and Holland), has potential to be a star. It’s not likely, but you can’t teach what he has.

I just hope someone can teach what he has to play better defense. No excuses for a guy that athletic to struggle as badly as he does defensively.

I'll co-sign this

I accept that Sexton is a significantly better player right now

I accept that Ivey could still bust out, and not deserve a starting position in a few years. The utter lack of BBall IQ he often exhibits on court is probably more frustrating than any player I recall watching.

But Ivey's ceiling is really high -- like, perennial All-star or better. Much higher than our Thompson twin (or the other twin for that matter) because he's just as athletic with a lot more skill. Faster than most small guards, stronger than most small forwards. Great shot mechanics, potential 3 level scorer. Shows flashes on D, mostly based on his athletic ability, even though he gets lost more than any other player I can recall.

And he was taking significant steps this year before the injury . . .

All good. I'm just going to channel your sig right now.

[tmorgan]

I agree with the creaky one except on Thompson’s athleticism. He’s ridiculous. Too bad his shot looks like he’s firing it out of a bazooka.