Five Team Steam: MIN/PHX/CHI/MIL/DET

[jredsaz]

Butler stays in Miami or goes to a team not listed above.

Wolves receive Nicola Vucivic, Pat Cannoughton
Suns receive Julius Randle, Bobby Portis
Bulls receive Bradly Beal, Tim Hardaway Jr, ‘27/‘29 1sts via PHX, Swap rights ‘26/‘30 via MIL, MIL 2nd ‘31
Bucks receive Zach Lavine, Wendell Moore Jr.
Pistons receive Kris Middleton

Wolves get another stretch five and get back to their big lineups.

Suns miss out on Butler but get more talent in the door and get off of Beals contract.

Bulls add a bunch of draft capital and begin to restructure their roster - finally able to get value for Lavine.

Bucks get the best player in the trade, duck the second apron and go all in for another title with Giannis.

Pistons get better. Middleton fits what they are looking for in a vet who can shoot and handle the basketball.

[Texas Chuck]

I know the Pistons fans don't like their part already as I did a 3 team deal with that included in it.

My biggest issue in this deal is the Wolves. I like Vuc the player, but not sure he and Gobert are a great fit and Minny needs Randle to opt out to pay Naz/NAW and this deal might cost them both of them next year.

I'm pretty okay with the rest of this, but I'm not sure Beal wants to uproot his life to go to a Chicago team trading its best two players.

[Godaddycurse]

wolves say no, too much salary on the books for next year. Why dont suns just keep vuc for themsevles?

[jredsaz]

wolves say no, too much salary on the books for next year. Why dont suns just keep vuc for themsevles?

Honestly, I saw Wolves fans wanted a center on the team trade deadline thread and just worked them into the legendary suns five team trade framework

That’s a fair point about the money but are the wolves just expecting Randle to decline his PO?

[jredsaz]

I know the Pistons fans don't like their part already as I did a 3 team deal with that included in it.

My biggest issue in this deal is the Wolves. I like Vuc the player, but not sure he and Gobert are a great fit and Minny needs Randle to opt out to pay Naz/NAW and this deal might cost them both of them next year.

I'm pretty okay with the rest of this, but I'm not sure Beal wants to uproot his life to go to a Chicago team trading its best two players.

I’m not sure Randle should be expected to decline his option next offseason given the market. Wolves are in a tough cap situation for sure. As far as fit on the court I thought Vuc could offer something like KAT last year, allow them to use multiple bigs like where they had more success.

I agree with you on Middleton to Detroit. Makes a lot of sense on paper. Maybe they get the MIL second?

The where will Beal go issue hangs over all this. Bulls and the city have a lot of appeal generally and to Beals business interests but who know. Total wild card.

[Texas Chuck]

I agree Randle might not opt out, but he might. He would be one of the top free agents on the market.

[winforlose]

I agree Randle might not opt out, but he might. He would be one of the top free agents on the market.

If that happens I expect a sign and trade. Not a lot of teams have the cap space to sign 30+ million above the cap. Bird rights from the sign and trade would make it much more doable.

[TheZachAttack]

wolves say no, too much salary on the books for next year. Why dont suns just keep vuc for themsevles?

Honestly, I saw Wolves fans wanted a center on the team trade deadline thread and just worked them into the legendary suns five team trade framework

That’s a fair point about the money but are the wolves just expecting Randle to decline his PO?

y

This was probably me. I'm not sure that this is a mainstream take as on the surface it feels like a weird move. My argument is that the biggest reason the Wolves are inconsistent is that they cannot punish defenses putting 2 on the ball against Ant despite Ant facing more of that type of coverage than any player in the league. The Wolves should be able to easily get teams in rotation with a big who can make the right decisions and score in the short roll and spot up from 3.

I was looking at stats and Vuc is one of the best scorers in the NBA in the paint on non-restricted-area attempts and can hit above the break 3's. I think it would be less about the Wolves playing Gobert/Vuc together although they could try in the same mold as Gobert and Towns but more-so about putting another shooter in the starting lineup like Naz and then bringing Vucevic off the bench or crating rotations where Vuc is on the floor when Gobert is not.

Dante-Ant-Jaden-Naz-Vuc would punish the two on the ball defensive gameplan.So for me, this is an interesting idea from a basketball theory perspective. I do think it's possible that Vuc-Gobert lineups could work, I think they would offensively and I think whatever they lost on defense would likely be made up with defensive rebounding (which they struggle with).

[TheZachAttack]

I agree Randle might not opt out, but he might. He would be one of the top free agents on the market.

I am of the belief that Randle will likely opt out because I think playing another year in a system in which he will not put up great stats due to the roster construction around him and the fit, he will struggle to get the multi-year contract he wants when he's another year older. I think that even if he could make more next year, the best way for him to make the most over the next 4 years is to opt out.

I do think Randle's 30m contract becomes much more interesting as a trade chip as an expiring next year if he opts in, so I'd almost rather let that play out and then make a move next year if there isn't something that makes sense this year.

[shrink]

$31 mil for Randle next year isn’t overpaid. However, it doesn’t provide him the longterm salary and insurance he would want.

I think he asks MIN to do a sign-and-trade, to help him get to a destination he wants that might not have a full $31 mil in cap space. MIN would likely want a cheaper player back and some payroll relief.

[TheZachAttack]

$31 mil for Randle next year isn’t overpaid. However, it doesn’t provide him the longterm salary and insurance he would want.

I think he asks MIN to do a sign-and-trade, to help him get to a destination he wants that might not have a full $31 mil in cap space. MIN would likely want a cheaper player back and some payroll relief.

In reality what the Wolves really need is a role player who can offer them something they lack (ball-handling/initiation or a couple of different types of backup big) and the space to feel free to elevate Rob, Naz, and Dante to more minutes.

[jredsaz]

$31 mil for Randle next year isn’t overpaid. However, it doesn’t provide him the longterm salary and insurance he would want.

I think he asks MIN to do a sign-and-trade, to help him get to a destination he wants that might not have a full $31 mil in cap space. MIN would likely want a cheaper player back and some payroll relief.

In reality what the Wolves really need is a role player who can offer them something they lack (ball-handling/initiation or a couple of different types of backup big) and the space to feel free to elevate Rob, Naz, and Dante to more minutes.

Idk who is looking to offer Randle long term money at this point. I guess if He can get a Derozan 3/75ish kind of deal he will opt out. What team with space you think are doing that though?

[wolves_89]

Randle straight up for Vucevic would be a little bit interesting, but adding Connaughton moves the deal from leaning no to definite no. I think the Wolves are a better team with Randle than they would be with Vucevic, so without salary savings for next season there is just no incentive for Minnesota to make the deal.

[TheZachAttack]

$31 mil for Randle next year isn’t overpaid. However, it doesn’t provide him the longterm salary and insurance he would want.

I think he asks MIN to do a sign-and-trade, to help him get to a destination he wants that might not have a full $31 mil in cap space. MIN would likely want a cheaper player back and some payroll relief.

In reality what the Wolves really need is a role player who can offer them something they lack (ball-handling/initiation or a couple of different types of backup big) and the space to feel free to elevate Rob, Naz, and Dante to more minutes.

Idk who is looking to offer Randle long term money at this point. I guess if He can get a Derozan 3/75ish kind of deal he will opt out. What team with space you think are doing that though?

I am not sure, but it's easy for everyone to imagine their team is going to get their #1 option. The reality is that Randle will be one of the better options on the market and there are many teams that have more spread floors where Randle could play well. A couple of underrated stats about Randle:

1. Randle leads the Timberwolves in defensive FG% under expected when he guards players
2. Randle is basically second behind Edwards in net rating
3. Edwards with Randle on the floor shoots something like 46% from the field and 44% from 3 and when Randle is off the floor he shoots like 37% and 37% from 3

Randle is in a cold shooting stretch, but he is a pretty efficient scorer inside the perimeter when you combine his field goal percentage and getting to the line. He can make tough shots and take advantage of mismatches and he's great at finding 3 point shooters when he draws defenders to him inside the paint or when he's playing point forward with spread floors in semi-transition.

Per 36 he's averaging 20.6 pts - 8 rbds - 5 assists on 58% TS. The only real difference in his play between NYK and the Wolves is he's at about a 25% usage rate versus 30% in New York. His usage rate is similar to guys like Paul George, Miles Bridges, Kevin Love, Shaedan Sharpe, Kyle Kuzma, Collin Sexton, Scottie Barnes.

Honestly, 30m is a fine cap slot for his production. People act like he has a super max and is getting paid 40-50m.

[TheZachAttack]

Randle straight up for Vucevic would be a little bit interesting, but adding Connaughton moves the deal from leaning no to definite no. I think the Wolves are a better team with Randle than they would be with Vucevic, so without salary savings for next season there is just no incentive for Minnesota to make the deal.

Why do you think they are better with Randle versus Vucevic?

[wolves_89]

Randle straight up for Vucevic would be a little bit interesting, but adding Connaughton moves the deal from leaning no to definite no. I think the Wolves are a better team with Randle than they would be with Vucevic, so without salary savings for next season there is just no incentive for Minnesota to make the deal.

Why do you think they are better with Randle versus Vucevic?

Because I don't see Vucevic and Gobert being able to play together at all, while Randle can play with Rudy. Vucevic just wouldn't get enough minutes to be all that valuable.

[TheZachAttack]

Randle straight up for Vucevic would be a little bit interesting, but adding Connaughton moves the deal from leaning no to definite no. I think the Wolves are a better team with Randle than they would be with Vucevic, so without salary savings for next season there is just no incentive for Minnesota to make the deal.

Why do you think they are better with Randle versus Vucevic?

Because I don't see Vucevic and Rudy being able to play together at all, while Randle can play with Rudy. Vucevic just wouldn't get enough minutes to be all that valuable.

I see. The way that I look at it is that Naz plays better with Rudy than Randle. I also think that Rudy should play closer to 25-28mpg and if you brought Vuc in potentially even less than that. Vuc would really help the Wolves break the coverages Ant is seeing and he can space the floor above the break.

I doubt that they can play together but I'd be interested in seeing what it looked like with the rebounding between the both of them. I think the Wolves know how to do it because they did it with Towns.

Vuc is paid 20m per year, so for me this is really about elevating Naz and then creating a solution for the biggest challenge that the Wolves have and helping address the way teams make it hard for our best player to play his best.

[winforlose]

Why do you think they are better with Randle versus Vucevic?

Because I don't see Vucevic and Rudy being able to play together at all, while Randle can play with Rudy. Vucevic just wouldn't get enough minutes to be all that valuable.

I see. The way that I look at it is that Naz plays better with Rudy than Randle. I also think that Rudy should play closer to 25-28mpg and if you brought Vuc in potentially even less than that. Vuc would really help the Wolves break the coverages Ant is seeing and he can space the floor above the break.

I doubt that they can play together but I'd be interested in seeing what it looked like with the rebounding between the both of them. I think the Wolves know how to do it because they did it with Towns.

Vuc is paid 20m per year, so for me this is really about elevating Naz and then creating a solution for the biggest challenge that the Wolves have and helping address the way teams make it hard for our best player to play his best.

Aside from how much we pay Rudy, slashing his minutes sends him a message that we don’t have faith in him. Putting aside the lack of rim protection with Vuc and Naz, you lose the Rudy screen assists and you lose the lob threat which you just saw dominate against the Nuggets. Rudy could definitely use 5 games off to rest, but cutting him to 25 minutes would just undermine his confidence and make his troubles worse.

Vuc is someone used to playing 30+ minutes since going to the Bulls. If Rudy plays 25 that means Vuc plays 23. Playing Vuc and Rudy together is a bad mix. I don’t know how changing Vuc’s minutes and role affects him, but I have to believe it will.

[wolves_89]

Why do you think they are better with Randle versus Vucevic?

Because I don't see Vucevic and Rudy being able to play together at all, while Randle can play with Rudy. Vucevic just wouldn't get enough minutes to be all that valuable.

I see. The way that I look at it is that Naz plays better with Rudy than Randle. I also think that Rudy should play closer to 25-28mpg and if you brought Vuc in potentially even less than that. Vuc would really help the Wolves break the coverages Ant is seeing and he can space the floor above the break.

I doubt that they can play together but I'd be interested in seeing what it looked like with the rebounding between the both of them. I think the Wolves know how to do it because they did it with Towns.

Vuc is paid 20m per year, so for me this is really about elevating Naz and then creating a solution for the biggest challenge that the Wolves have and helping address the way teams make it hard for our best player to play his best.

Vucevic and Towns are completely different players on the defensive end. Towns was mobile enough to legitimately guard PFs on the perimeter, while Vucevic has no chance in those matchups. I just don't think that Vucevic/Gobert has any possibility of working in a similar fashion as Towns/Gobert.

[TheZachAttack]

Because I don't see Vucevic and Rudy being able to play together at all, while Randle can play with Rudy. Vucevic just wouldn't get enough minutes to be all that valuable.

I see. The way that I look at it is that Naz plays better with Rudy than Randle. I also think that Rudy should play closer to 25-28mpg and if you brought Vuc in potentially even less than that. Vuc would really help the Wolves break the coverages Ant is seeing and he can space the floor above the break.

I doubt that they can play together but I'd be interested in seeing what it looked like with the rebounding between the both of them. I think the Wolves know how to do it because they did it with Towns.

Vuc is paid 20m per year, so for me this is really about elevating Naz and then creating a solution for the biggest challenge that the Wolves have and helping address the way teams make it hard for our best player to play his best.

Aside from how much we pay Rudy, slashing his minutes sends him a message that we don’t have faith in him. Putting aside the lack of rim protection with Vuc and Naz, you lose the Rudy screen assists and you lose the lob threat which you just saw dominate against the Nuggets. Rudy could definitely use 5 games off to rest, but cutting him to 25 minutes would just undermine his confidence and make his troubles worse.

Vuc is someone used to playing 30+ minutes since going to the Bulls. If Rudy plays 25 that means Vuc plays 23. Playing Vuc and Rudy together is a bad mix. I don’t know how changing Vuc’s minutes and role affects him, but I have to believe it will.

Rudy doesn't need to play >30 minutes per game in the regular season at his age. This is about winning and about the postseason and about making the team the best version of itself. Playing in a major role on a team trying to win a championship should be enough. You don't know how Vucevic and Gobert would play together. The Bulls beat the Wolves last year playing Drummond and Vucevic together. Vucevic is a 40% above the break 3 point shooter. The rebounding advantages on both ends could work.

And what makes Ant the best player is what's important, not Rudy's ego. And if Rudy isn't willing to sacrifice for the team, then he isn't a winning player and doesn't care about winning.