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The Knicks have clearly been the third best team in the East but...they seem far behind the Cavs/Celtics not so much in the standings...when they have faced each other they have been vastly outclassed, getting beat in some cases...they have +- 195 million committed for next year on 10 players...and the lack of depth seems to be the most glaring problem (they were already penalized for those reasons in the last playoffs)...with most of their picks controlled by the NETS...is there any way to improve those flaws and get them on the Cavs/Celtics level?

convert OG into 2(or 3) players who give them good depth? Mitchell Robinson for someone more reliable?

The Knicks put themselves in a tough position. On the one hand, they have a very good team that is pretty much locked into the 3rd seed in the East. On the other hand, they haven't just lost to the top teams in the East, they have been run off the court consistently.

The way the team is built has some major structural issues:
1) They don't have a fringe top-5 player, and almost all title teams have that level of player
2) Their top 2 players are weak links defensively
3) The roster only has one guy who is an elite ball handler/shot creator. All the other players are better off the catch
4) They lack depth, and their top talent isn't elite enough to offset it

The tough spot is outside of trading one of the top-6, the Knicks don't have many ways to improve the team. It will be a struggle to squeeze the taxpayer MLE in under the 2nd apron. They only have one 2nd rd pick this year in the 50's. They have no tradable 1st rd picks (the Wizards first is essentially 2 2nds). Looking at their remaining 7 2nd rd picks, there aren't any high value or high variance picks available. And they really don't have moveable salary in a trade. This team is as all in as you can be, and the product is looking like it's an extremely expensive treadmill team with a maxed out credit card.

Personally, I think the team needs to look to break Anunoby into two pieces - a rim protector and a secondary ballhandler shot creator. Ideally, you can recoup a 1st rd pick in this kind of a trade. I can see both the Kings and Mavericks having interest in Anunoby. A Sacramento deal would be built around Malik Monk and a draft pick(s), with the salary savings used to acquire a C from a third team. Maybe this is where you can acquire Isiah Stewart from Detroit. Dallas would have to build something around Daniel Gafford and PJ Washington plus pick(s), likely getting another ball handler from another team.

I hated the Bridges because it felt like the Knicks committed to building a great regular season team for the next 3-5 years, signing up for 2-3 years that will remind us of the late Carmelo days on the back end when Brunson is hitting his mid 30's and NY is sending two unprotected picks across the river. Bridges has been exactly as advertised and frankly, the Knicks have been exactly as advertised.

I guess the hope is that if you win 50 or games for the next 4-5 years, that one year things will line up and you can go on a deep run. But for the price NY paid to put this team together, it feels like a bad investment.

Get healthy, keep drafting well, and add another rotation piece this summer.

If we're still a cut below BOS/CLE/OKC next season, even with proper depth, then you start thinking about something wild. But we still haven't seen this team with it's defensive anchor, things might look differently when we can protect the rim without everyone crashing down into the paint.

Astaluego wrote:convert OG into 2(or 3) players who give them good depth? Mitchell Robinson for someone more reliable?

Definitely no to the first. Let's see how the rest of the season goes to the second.

cgf wrote:

Astaluego wrote:convert OG into 2(or 3) players who give them good depth? Mitchell Robinson for someone more reliable?

Definitely no to the first. Let's see how the rest of the season goes to the second.

Amen. We're 3rd in the East with Robinson, Precious, OG and now Hart missing significant time. That's 4 of our top 7 players out, and we're still 3rd. That's not bad at all. We're also a relatively young team--i.e., this season is not our only bite at the apple. Finally, there's no Robinson or OG trade out there now where'd we get anything equivalent back. Robinson has to prove on the court that he's fully recovered first before anybody would give up something valuable for him--and we likely wouldn't want to trade Robinson then--and OG (our best defender along with being a significant offensive threat) is worth more to us than to just about any other team.

taikibansei wrote:

cgf wrote:

Astaluego wrote:convert OG into 2(or 3) players who give them good depth? Mitchell Robinson for someone more reliable?

Definitely no to the first. Let's see how the rest of the season goes to the second.

Amen. We're 3rd in the East with Robinson, Precious, OG and now Hart missing significant time. That's 4 of our top 7 players out, and we're still 3rd. That's not bad at all. We're also a relatively young team--i.e., this season is not our only bite at the apple. Finally, there's no Robinson or OG trade out there now where'd we get anything equivalent back. Robinson has to prove on the court that he's fully recovered first before anybody would give up something valuable for him--and we likely wouldn't want to trade Robinson then--and OG (our best defender along with being a significant offensive threat) is worth more to us than to just about any other team.

Only thing I'd quibble about with this would be that I think there's a very valid case for Robinson as our best defender over OG. But otherwise yeah. This has been a really fun season and we still haven't seen this team's best yet. Maybe that still won't be enough and maybe we won't see this team at full strength at any point, but there's still a third of the regular season + playoffs left. Let's see how that plays out and what's available in the summer.

cgf wrote:

taikibansei wrote:

cgf wrote:
Definitely no to the first. Let's see how the rest of the season goes to the second.

Amen. We're 3rd in the East with Robinson, Precious, OG and now Hart missing significant time. That's 4 of our top 7 players out, and we're still 3rd. That's not bad at all. We're also a relatively young team--i.e., this season is not our only bite at the apple. Finally, there's no Robinson or OG trade out there now where'd we get anything equivalent back. Robinson has to prove on the court that he's fully recovered first before anybody would give up something valuable for him--and we likely wouldn't want to trade Robinson then--and OG (our best defender along with being a significant offensive threat) is worth more to us than to just about any other team.

Only thing I'd quibble about with this would be that I think there's a very valid case for Robinson as our best defender over OG. But otherwise yeah. This has been a really fun season and we still haven't seen this team's best yet. Maybe that still won't be enough and maybe we won't see this team at full strength at any point, but there's still a third of the regular season + playoffs left. Let's see how that plays out and what's available in the summer.

Depends on team need, in my opinion. Robinson, when healthy, is an excellent rim defender and rebounder, with the ability to guard out to the 3-point line. That said, as we've seen this season, OG can effectively guard 2's all the way up to Wemby. On a team like ours with limited resources, give me that every time.

Getting Robinson back healthy and in-form would upgrade their post depth and give them an option for a big lineup to give a different look. Could also be a trade option. Otherwise I don't see a clear direction forward.

OG is a good defender but he's bad at team defense. That means with OG and KAT they have a weak interior defense that bigger front courts like the Cavs will demolish. They should look for an elite PF to pair with KAT by trading OG and Robinson together, then build depth through the draft.

Thaddy wrote:OG is a good defender but he's bad at team defense. That means with OG and KAT they have a weak interior defense that bigger front courts like the Cavs will demolish. They should look for an elite PF to pair with KAT by trading OG and Robinson together, then build depth through the draft.

I'm trying to figure out what you mean, could you clarify yourself?...cause he has been a fantastic help / off-ball defender for us.

And why would we trade OG & Robinson, when we could just play them together with Towns? You know, the way Minnesota played McDaniels & Gobert in the frontcourt with Towns...

cgf wrote:

Thaddy wrote:OG is a good defender but he's bad at team defense. That means with OG and KAT they have a weak interior defense that bigger front courts like the Cavs will demolish. They should look for an elite PF to pair with KAT by trading OG and Robinson together, then build depth through the draft.

I'm trying to figure out what you mean, could you clarify yourself?...cause he has been a fantastic help / off-ball defender for us.

And why would we trade OG & Robinson, when we could just play them together with Towns? You know, the way Minnesota played McDaniels & Gobert in the frontcourt with Towns...

OG isn't a good rim defender. He doesn't take charges or block shots, sometimes those are misleading stats, but his help defense isn't great.

Robinson's injury prone and has a negative value. He won't work at PF due to mobility concerns, same with KAT.

Trading OG for a rim protector and mobile defender that can compensate for KAT will make the Knicks better. Bridges and OG is redundant you don't need more than one POA defender.

The other issue is OG can't hit the above the break 3. That's been an issue since he's been on Toronto.

Thaddy wrote:

cgf wrote:

Thaddy wrote:OG is a good defender but he's bad at team defense. That means with OG and KAT they have a weak interior defense that bigger front courts like the Cavs will demolish. They should look for an elite PF to pair with KAT by trading OG and Robinson together, then build depth through the draft.

I'm trying to figure out what you mean, could you clarify yourself?...cause he has been a fantastic help / off-ball defender for us.

And why would we trade OG & Robinson, when we could just play them together with Towns? You know, the way Minnesota played McDaniels & Gobert in the frontcourt with Towns...

OG isn't a good rim defender. He doesn't take charges or block shots, sometimes those are misleading stats, but his help defense isn't great.

Robinson's injury prone and has a negative value. He won't work at PF due to mobility concerns, same with KAT.

Trading OG for a rim protector and mobile defender that can compensate for KAT will make the Knicks better. Bridges and OG is redundant you don't need more than one POA defender.

The other issue is OG can't hit the above the break 3. That's been an issue since he's been on Toronto.

But OG has been a fantastic help defender for us, even if he doesn't put up crazy block stats...which is why I'm confused.

Minnesota didn't have any problems defensively with Towns at the 4, why would we? Are you saying that Gobert is more mobile than Robinson? Nevermind that OG & Bridges are better wing defenders than McDaniels & Ant. It's not a 1-to-1 match, but why wouldn't the Minnesota model work with our personnel if we ever got our top 7 healthy?

That may have been an issue in Toronto but OG is shooting 35.5% on above-the-break 3s this season. That's essentially league average.

Thaddy wrote:

cgf wrote:

Thaddy wrote:OG is a good defender but he's bad at team defense. That means with OG and KAT they have a weak interior defense that bigger front courts like the Cavs will demolish. They should look for an elite PF to pair with KAT by trading OG and Robinson together, then build depth through the draft.

I'm trying to figure out what you mean, could you clarify yourself?...cause he has been a fantastic help / off-ball defender for us.

And why would we trade OG & Robinson, when we could just play them together with Towns? You know, the way Minnesota played McDaniels & Gobert in the frontcourt with Towns...

OG isn't a good rim defender. He doesn't take charges or block shots, sometimes those are misleading stats, but his help defense isn't great.

Robinson's injury prone and has a negative value. He won't work at PF due to mobility concerns, same with KAT.

Trading OG for a rim protector and mobile defender that can compensate for KAT will make the Knicks better. Bridges and OG is redundant you don't need more than one POA defender.

The other issue is OG can't hit the above the break 3. That's been an issue since he's been on Toronto.

Thanks for making it clear you've never watched OG on the Knicks. Up until the recent injury, he'd been absolutely amazing on defense for us this season. E.g., when OG finally became Wemby's primary defender in the last 6 minutes of the Christmas Day game, Wemby scored 0 further points. (He'd been killing us up until then.)

That's defensive versatility, and that's exactly what we need.

And yes, OG is only slightly above league average as a shooter. Good thing we have Brunson and KAT taking up the slack on offense--one reason why our offense has consistently been ranked top-5 all season. Yeah, we're fine there.

But yeah, if somebody wanted to overpay for Robinson, sure, we'd likely do that. Doubt it happens though.

You have OG at the 4 full time, he's undersized for the position and he isn't an elite rim protector. He's good at one on one defense, he isn't great at help defense. Do you have any stats to support that he is?

He has a low above the break 3pt volume. His overall career above the break 3 isn't league average.

Thaddy wrote:You have OG at the 4 full time, he's undersized for the position and he isn't an elite rim protector. He's good at one on one defense, he isn't great at help defense. Do you have any stats to support that he is?

He has a low above the break 3pt volume. His overall career above the break 3 isn't league average.

Or we can play Robinson at the 5, Towns at the 4, OG at 3, and Bridges at the 2, making us huge around Brunson...

cgf wrote:

Thaddy wrote:You have OG at the 4 full time, he's undersized for the position and he isn't an elite rim protector. He's good at one on one defense, he isn't great at help defense. Do you have any stats to support that he is?

He has a low above the break 3pt volume. His overall career above the break 3 isn't league average.

Or we can play Robinson at the 5, Towns at the 4, OG at 3, and Bridges at the 2, making us huge around Brunson...

Great stats you pointed out there. That hypothetical line up is worse than what the Timberwolves had so I don't think it makes the Knicks a contender. Bridges and OG is redundant, you need an additional creator next to Brunson. A good third option would be someone like Toronto version of Barrett.

Thaddy wrote:

cgf wrote:

Thaddy wrote:You have OG at the 4 full time, he's undersized for the position and he isn't an elite rim protector. He's good at one on one defense, he isn't great at help defense. Do you have any stats to support that he is?

He has a low above the break 3pt volume. His overall career above the break 3 isn't league average.

Or we can play Robinson at the 5, Towns at the 4, OG at 3, and Bridges at the 2, making us huge around Brunson...

Great stats you pointed out there. That hypothetical line up is worse than what the Timberwolves had so I don't think it makes the Knicks a contender. Bridges and OG is redundant, you need an additional creator next to Brunson. A good third option would be someone like Toronto version of Barrett.

Interesting point re Barrett - his skill set was redundant with Randle but would fit in better with Towns.

But as the OP mentioned, let’s see the team at full strength - with Robinson protecting the rim and Bridges/Anunoby on the perimeter.

I still don’t think this team is a contender but let’s at least give it a shot.

Thaddy wrote:

cgf wrote:

Thaddy wrote:You have OG at the 4 full time, he's undersized for the position and he isn't an elite rim protector. He's good at one on one defense, he isn't great at help defense. Do you have any stats to support that he is?

He has a low above the break 3pt volume. His overall career above the break 3 isn't league average.

Or we can play Robinson at the 5, Towns at the 4, OG at 3, and Bridges at the 2, making us huge around Brunson...

Great stats you pointed out there. That hypothetical line up is worse than what the Timberwolves had so I don't think it makes the Knicks a contender. Bridges and OG is redundant, you need an additional creator next to Brunson. A good third option would be someone like Toronto version of Barrett.

We have the 2nd best offense in the NBA despite not having RJ anymore, I'd say we're doing pretty well on that end and it's our defense that needs to get better if we want to be more than the 4th best team in a 3 team league.

You made the wild assertion that a player with OG's reputation as a help defender, actually isn't good at it. The onus is on you to provide some evidence for your claim and so far all you've given me is blocks...which isn't exactly a convincing argument on its own...plenty of bad help defenders have impressive block rates and plenty of excellent help defenders don't.

And we'll have to agree to disagree about Minny being better. If we ever get to see that group together, on paper, it should be better both defensively and offensively to my eye.

Mitch is no Rudy, but he's really good in his own right...not only did he boss Embiid into the mother of all hissyfits in the playoffs after bodying Mobley & Allen the previous year, but we had a top 10 Defense when he got hurt last year, in the month between losing Mitch & acquiring OG we dropped to a bottom 10 defense. So we'd be worse at the 5 than they were, but we'd still have a really good defensive anchor...one who's more mobile than Rudy; which, if you'll remember, was your original criticism of the idea...

But moving on from the defensive anchors to each team's #1 option; where Brunson was even better than Ant last year, and this year is showing way more playmaking / control of the offense than Ant has...at least so far in his young career, I'm an Ant believer so do think he'll learn to control an offense in time to. Ant is certainly a better defender than Brunson, but Conley would be Jalen's defensive analog, not Ant, and even though a prime Conley was on a different level defensively from Brunson, current Conley isn't at all.

Then we've got OG vs McDaniels; where OG has a huge advantage as a shooter, and a defensive advantage according to advanced metrics and my eye. Now I will grant you that McDaniels is the better rim protector, but that's neither one's main responsibility...even though I think Minny should be running McD as their main rim protector when Rudy rests...so it doesn't exactly outweigh the rest of Anunoby's advantages.

Leaving us with Bridges vs Conley offensively, and Bridges vs Ant defensively. Given Brunson's control of the offense, we don't need Conley's playmaking next to our #1 the way they did, so the question becomes which is the more capable 3rd option, and that's Mikal. Ant v Bridges defensively is interesting and I'm open to the argument that Ant was a bit better than Bridges has been for us so far...but I wonder how much of that is due to Mikal having to cheat down to compensate for Towns having to play the 5 while Robinson has been recovering.

Finally NAW & Reid vs Hart & McBride is by no means a clear win for the Wolves either. Naz won 6moty last year and they desperately needed his shooting, but Hart's impact this season has been just as massive as a secondary connector, rebound machine, and one-man fastbreak. While Deuce has turned himself into an excellent shooter, even if his size limits him a little more defensively than NAW...as NAW is almost 3 inches taller but has just a 1 inch longer wingspan.

It might be time to start a best offers for Bridges or Anunoby trade.