RealGM

I’ll offer this idea based on:
-Pistons swap out an expiring frontcourt piece for a younger expiring frontcourt piece
-Wizards swap out a veteran excess wing for more frontcourt depth
-Jazz leverage cap space to swap out an excess expiring for court piece for a veteran expiring wing

To Detroit (Trade Harris, 2 2nds)
-John Collins (1 year, $26ish million deal) *assuming he opts in*

To Washington (Trade Middleton, 2 2nds)
-Tobias Harris (1 year, $26ish million deal)

To Utah (Trade Collins)
-Kris Middleton (1 year, $33ish million deal) *assuming he opts in*
-2027 2nd from Pistons
-2028 2nd from Pistons
-2029 2nd from Wizards
-2030 2nd from Wizards

Why?
-The Pistons upgrade their frontcourt by getting younger without taking on more salary and using excess 2nds to do so
-The Wizards cut cap by $7 million and clear up glut of wings by swapping Middleton for Harris at the expenses of 2 distant 2nds
-The Jazz swap out Collins for Middleton as they clear up glut of 4s and add a veteran wing. Given additional money, production of Collins and lack of durability of Middleton, the Jazz get back 4 2nds.

Hmm...not sure Washington is in a position to spend 2nds to upgrade Middleton. I'd rather see them in Utah's position here where they take on longer-term salary for asset(s), even minor ones.

The framework is a good idea and I like the fit of Collins in Detroit.

Washington shouldn't be trading future picks for a better on court fit that isn't consequential. For Utah, I like the direction.

Detroit has no reason to pay to do this. Continuity matters, and Collins isn’t really an upgrade.

Tobias has been balling in 2025. Really stepped it up. I’d still be looking for a longer term solution at PF, but that’s not Collins.

EDIT: Let me restate that… Collins has played better than Tobias this year, but he’s not that much better and is more fragile, and he isn’t the long-term solution we’re looking for.

Detroit would need to add more, which they are likely unwilling to do. Collins is 5 years younger, more versatile as he can give you some minutes at the 5, and neither are lighting up the defensive end. Collins is clearly the better player at this point.

Collins is having a good year on a team that has really disappointed and is in the running for the number 1 pick. The Pistons on the other hand are one of the surprises of the season, four games over .500 and competing for a playoff spot. Harris is having a strong season and is one of the Pistons' veteran leaders. As much as I like Collins and I don't see nor would I want the Pistons to mess with their chemistry by making this trade.

Zero reason for the Wizards to be in this trade. They don't care about saving 7 million in raw money as Middleton and Harris both expire. Moreover, they want to keep as many picks as possible. They also do not want to win next year as their pick is top 8 protected (otherwise it goes to the Knicks).

tmorgan wrote:
EDIT: Let me restate that… Collins has played better than Tobias this year, but he’s not that much better and is more fragile, and he isn’t the long-term solution we’re looking for.

This is incorrect. The game is played on both sides of the floor and they're not comparable defenders, Tobias is also a much better passer. Collins is the better scorer and the better rebounder. Tobias fit much better in what we are doing.

Tobias ranks #79 in Estimated plus minus, and is in the 80th percentile in the estimated impact on defense per 100 possessions. Collins is #117 in EPM and is in the 41th percentile in estimated defense.

Crafted OPM and DPM show a similar story. Tobias is in the 80th percentile as a defender while Collins is in the 42th percentile.

Tobias doesn't have a high 3 point percent, neither make flashy plays, but he is a really good player. People are not paying attention and are underestimating what Tobias has been doing.

vege wrote:

tmorgan wrote:
EDIT: Let me restate that… Collins has played better than Tobias this year, but he’s not that much better and is more fragile, and he isn’t the long-term solution we’re looking for.

This is incorrect. The game is played on both sides of the floor and they're not comparable defenders, Tobias is also a much better passer. Collins is the better scorer and the better rebounder. Tobias fit much better in what we are doing.

Tobias ranks #79 in Estimated plus minus, and is in the 80th percentile in the estimated impact on defense per 100 possessions. Collins is #117 in EPM and is in the 41th percentile in estimated defense.

Crafted OPM and DPM show a similar story. Tobias is in the 80th percentile as a defender while Collins is in the 42th percentile.

Tobias doesn't have a high 3 point percent, neither make flashy plays, but he is a really good player. People are not paying attention and are underestimating what Tobias has been doing.

Well dang. I stand corrected. Tobias has definitely played really well lately.

Yeah, I think Unc (Tobias) retires a Piston at this point. I think we're more likely to extend him on a more cap friendly 2+ year deal.

vege wrote:

tmorgan wrote:
EDIT: Let me restate that… Collins has played better than Tobias this year, but he’s not that much better and is more fragile, and he isn’t the long-term solution we’re looking for.

This is incorrect. The game is played on both sides of the floor and they're not comparable defenders, Tobias is also a much better passer. Collins is the better scorer and the better rebounder. Tobias fit much better in what we are doing.

Tobias ranks #79 in Estimated plus minus, and is in the 80th percentile in the estimated impact on defense per 100 possessions. Collins is #117 in EPM and is in the 41th percentile in estimated defense.

Crafted OPM and DPM show a similar story. Tobias is in the 80th percentile as a defender while Collins is in the 42th percentile.

Tobias doesn't have a high 3 point percent, neither make flashy plays, but he is a really good player. People are not paying attention and are underestimating what Tobias has been doing.

What do you think Detroit will do this summer to take another step? They don't have their national team... any signings in free agency... and development of their youth?

Astaluego wrote:What do you think Detroit will do this summer to take another step? They don't have their national team... any signings in free agency... and development of their youth?

Focus more on roster balance. We have a ton of perimeter players, very few wings. Make a decision on Sasser, see if there are better options available then Hardaway Jr and Schröder. Try to get Beasley locked into a decent contract.

I don’t know what “their national team” means

chrbal wrote:

Astaluego wrote:What do you think Detroit will do this summer to take another step? They don't have their ... any signings in free agency... and development of their youth?

Focus more on roster balance. We have a ton of perimeter players, very few wings. Make a decision on Sasser, see if there are better options available then Hardaway Jr and Schröder. Try to get Beasley locked into a decent contract.

I don’t know what “their national team” means

(thanks for your reply) sorry..(the phone predictor betrayed me) I meant that they will not have their FRP this year

vege wrote:

tmorgan wrote:
EDIT: Let me restate that… Collins has played better than Tobias this year, but he’s not that much better and is more fragile, and he isn’t the long-term solution we’re looking for.

This is incorrect. The game is played on both sides of the floor and they're not comparable defenders, Tobias is also a much better passer. Collins is the better scorer and the better rebounder. Tobias fit much better in what we are doing.

Tobias ranks #79 in Estimated plus minus, and is in the 80th percentile in the estimated impact on defense per 100 possessions. Collins is #117 in EPM and is in the 41th percentile in estimated defense.

Crafted OPM and DPM show a similar story. Tobias is in the 80th percentile as a defender while Collins is in the 42th percentile.

Tobias doesn't have a high 3 point percent, neither make flashy plays, but he is a really good player. People are not paying attention and are underestimating what Tobias has been doing.

I'm seeing different EPM numbers (Tobias ranks 114th and Collins ranks 138th), but your overall points are correct. I'm a fan of both players; I would have loved to have Tobias on the Jazz back when there was reportedly mutual interest. Given the current situations of Detroit and Utah, each are better off retaining their current guys.

Nice to see it coming together this season for the Pistons.

I think Colin Sexton is the more interesting trade piece for the Jazz. A lot more curious where he goes personally.

SkyHook wrote:

vege wrote:

tmorgan wrote:
EDIT: Let me restate that… Collins has played better than Tobias this year, but he’s not that much better and is more fragile, and he isn’t the long-term solution we’re looking for.

This is incorrect. The game is played on both sides of the floor and they're not comparable defenders, Tobias is also a much better passer. Collins is the better scorer and the better rebounder. Tobias fit much better in what we are doing.

Tobias ranks #79 in Estimated plus minus, and is in the 80th percentile in the estimated impact on defense per 100 possessions. Collins is #117 in EPM and is in the 41th percentile in estimated defense.

Crafted OPM and DPM show a similar story. Tobias is in the 80th percentile as a defender while Collins is in the 42th percentile.

Tobias doesn't have a high 3 point percent, neither make flashy plays, but he is a really good player. People are not paying attention and are underestimating what Tobias has been doing.

I'm seeing different EPM numbers (Tobias ranks 114th and Collins ranks 138th), but your overall points are correct. I'm a fan of both players; I would have loved to have Tobias on the Jazz back when there was reportedly mutual interest. Given the current situations of Detroit and Utah, each are better off retaining their current guys.

Nice to see it coming together this season for the Pistons.

This are my sources

https://dunksandthrees.com

https://craftednba.com

vege wrote:

SkyHook wrote:
I'm seeing different EPM numbers (Tobias ranks 114th and Collins ranks 138th), but your overall points are correct. I'm a fan of both players; I would have loved to have Tobias on the Jazz back when there was reportedly mutual interest. Given the current situations of Detroit and Utah, each are better off retaining their current guys.

Nice to see it coming together this season for the Pistons.

This are my sources

https://dunksandthrees.com

https://craftednba.com

I see. I've got my bookmark for dunksandthrees set to "Actual" EPM for this season only rather than the default "Expected" based on preceding career data. We're both right from our own points of view.

I could see the Pistons interested in looking for their PF of the future, I don't know if John Collins is the guy though (albeit talented). Interesting trade idea though, well done!

I don't think Detroit makes any major moves and I don't think we should. All of our key pieces are young and improving and continuity is worth more than anything we could get in free agency, imo. I'd happily run it back, adding a healthy Ivey to the mix, and see where we're at.