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MAVS
In:Fox
Out:Lively/Klay/Martín/Hardy/MAVS FRP

The Mavs get a star point guard, who I think would fit very well with what they are building, and who I think could play and combine especially well with KI.

SPURS
In: Lively/Klay/Martín/Hardy/MAVS FRP(now 12)
Out:Fox

Los Spurs tienen un diamante en Castle ,quién no encaja bien con Fox y creo que muy pronto será un mejor jugador (en mi opinión) ..lo cambian antes de tener que pagarle un contrato muy lucrativo y obtiene un ajuste ideal a largo plazo en la cancha delantera en Lively y se consiguen otra selección de lotería y algunos veteranos de calidad (Klay)y sólidos jugadores de rol

Frankly I don't understand it for San Antonio. Lively should just be behind Wemby.

Astaluego wrote:MAVS
In:Fox
Out:Lively/Klay/Martín/Hardy/MAVS FRP

The Mavs get a star point guard, who I think would fit very well with what they are building, and who I think could play and combine especially well with KI.

SPURS
In: Lively/Klay/Martín/Hardy/MAVS FRP(now 12)
Out:Fox

Los Spurs tienen un diamante en Castle ,quién no encaja bien con Fox y creo que muy pronto será un mejor jugador (en mi opinión) ..lo cambian antes de tener que pagarle un contrato muy lucrativo y obtiene un ajuste ideal a largo plazo en la cancha delantera en Lively y se consiguen otra selección de lotería y algunos veteranos de calidad (Klay)y sólidos jugadores de rol

1) Spurs JUST traded for Fox KNOWING they had Castle, it's unlikely they want to trade him on account of having Castle when they had him by the trade deadline and his profile was clear by then.
2) Even if Spurs wanted to trade Fox, they're a classy organization and would not turn around and ship him elsewhere for a profit without his consent.
3) Even if the Spurs weren't a classy organization, Fox is an expiring so his value is closely tied to his future plans. No team will offer a haul for him without him expressing his desire to re-sign, and he had a one team list a couple of months ago so it's unlikely he changed his mind in a couple of months.
4) Even if a third team would still want to trade for Fox, the Spurs would ask for a package worth their while and this is basically negative contracts (Klay, Martin, Hardy), redundant ones (Lively isn't who you want next to Wemby) and a pick in a range where the Spurs have two (their own, projected at 8 and the Hawks', probably 13-16). This isn't interesting for the Spurs.

The only way I see the Spurs and Fox wanting to part ways this quickly, is some catastrophic Wemby news (knock on wood) related to his recent injury. Then it would make sense for the Spurs to recoup assets and tank once again, and for Fox to move to a contender. But this isn't the case so far (hopefully never) and this is premature.

babyjax13 wrote:Frankly I don't understand it for San Antonio. Lively should just be behind Wemby.

Agree. Spurs shouldn't consider this. They picked Fox to go with Wemby. They should at least take a look at that before moving Fox, especially for an underwhelming package like this.

Texas Chuck wrote:

babyjax13 wrote:Frankly I don't understand it for San Antonio. Lively should just be behind Wemby.

Agree. Spurs shouldn't consider this. They picked Fox to go with Wemby. They should at least take a look at that before moving Fox, especially for an underwhelming package like this.

I have this as more than what the Spurs paid to get Fox. Maybe I'm lower on him than I should be, but he's going to need a new deal and I don't think he's a vet max player.

jbk1234 wrote:

Texas Chuck wrote:

babyjax13 wrote:Frankly I don't understand it for San Antonio. Lively should just be behind Wemby.

Agree. Spurs shouldn't consider this. They picked Fox to go with Wemby. They should at least take a look at that before moving Fox, especially for an underwhelming package like this.

I have this as more than what the Spurs paid to get Fox. Maybe I'm lower on him than I should be, but he's going to need a new deal and I don't think he's a vet max player.

Spurs paid:
Bulls '25 FRP (currently #12)
Spurs unprotected '27 FRP (probably in the 20s)
TWolves unprotected '31 FRP (totally unknown)
Hornets '25 FRP lottery protected (realistically 2 SRPs)
2 SRPs (25 Bulls and 28 Nuggets)
matching expirings plus Zach Collins (1 more year @ 18 million)

This proposal has the Spurs taking on longer money (Klay has 2 more years beyond this one at 16 and 17 million), Cody Martin (10 and 10) and Hardy (6 and 6) so basically Spurs take on an extra 14 million next year and 33 million the year following, for players they don't need. That's negative value. The Bulls pick and the Mavs own pick cancel each other out, so basically it comes down to:

Lively + eating an extra 14 and 33 million the following 2 years
vs
TWolves 31 unprotected + Spurs 27 unprotected + 4 SRP (2 because Hornets won't convey as a first and 2 more Spurs gave up as such)

Honestly, for the Spurs, I'd rather have the latter package, and that's only considering cost of acquisition which isn't an accurate reflection of value (because Fox forced his way to the team). If Spurs wanted to move on from Fox, they'd get more than this once they extend him and becomes trade eligible. Like significantly more. They won't, however, because stabbing Fox like this would undoubtedly hurt their reputation with future free agents and trade targets.

Fox is not any kind of star point guard and never was, the fact the Spurs overpaid for him a couple months ago shouldn't be relevant to future trades. He scores a lot of inefficient points, congratulations on your new chucker.

wemby wrote:

jbk1234 wrote:

Texas Chuck wrote:
Agree. Spurs shouldn't consider this. They picked Fox to go with Wemby. They should at least take a look at that before moving Fox, especially for an underwhelming package like this.

I have this as more than what the Spurs paid to get Fox. Maybe I'm lower on him than I should be, but he's going to need a new deal and I don't think he's a vet max player.

Spurs paid:
Bulls '25 FRP (currently #12)
Spurs unprotected '27 FRP (probably in the 20s)
TWolves unprotected '31 FRP (totally unknown)
Hornets '25 FRP lottery protected (realistically 2 SRPs)
2 SRPs (25 Bulls and 28 Nuggets)
matching expirings plus Zach Collins (1 more year @ 18 million)

This proposal has the Spurs taking on longer money (Klay has 2 more years beyond this one at 16 and 17 million), Cody Martin (10 and 10) and Hardy (6 and 6) so basically Spurs take on an extra 14 million next year and 33 million the year following, for players they don't need. That's negative value. The Bulls pick and the Mavs own pick cancel each other out, so basically it comes down to:

Lively + eating an extra 14 and 33 million the following 2 years
vs
TWolves 31 unprotected + Spurs 27 unprotected + 4 SRP (2 because Hornets won't convey as a first and 2 more Spurs gave up as such)

Honestly, for the Spurs, I'd rather have the latter package, and that's only considering cost of acquisition which isn't an accurate reflection of value (because Fox forced his way to the team). If Spurs wanted to move on from Fox, they'd get more than this once they extend him and becomes trade eligible. Like significantly more. They won't, however, because stabbing Fox like this would undoubtedly hurt their reputation with future free agents and trade targets.

You left off the Mavs 1st and Lively is already good (if often injured). A lotto pick that hits is easily worth two future lotto picks and there's no guarantee that either first the Spurs gave up lands in lottery. Klay's inclusion is meh but so was Collins (as evidenced by the fact that the Kings immediately rerouted him).

If you believe that Fox extended on a contract that pays him 30% of the cap is a really good trade asset, then that's what you believe. It's not what I believe.

jbk1234 wrote:

wemby wrote:

jbk1234 wrote:
I have this as more than what the Spurs paid to get Fox. Maybe I'm lower on him than I should be, but he's going to need a new deal and I don't think he's a vet max player.

Spurs paid:
Bulls '25 FRP (currently #12)
Spurs unprotected '27 FRP (probably in the 20s)
TWolves unprotected '31 FRP (totally unknown)
Hornets '25 FRP lottery protected (realistically 2 SRPs)
2 SRPs (25 Bulls and 28 Nuggets)
matching expirings plus Zach Collins (1 more year @ 18 million)

This proposal has the Spurs taking on longer money (Klay has 2 more years beyond this one at 16 and 17 million), Cody Martin (10 and 10) and Hardy (6 and 6) so basically Spurs take on an extra 14 million next year and 33 million the year following, for players they don't need. That's negative value. The Bulls pick and the Mavs own pick cancel each other out, so basically it comes down to:

Lively + eating an extra 14 and 33 million the following 2 years
vs
TWolves 31 unprotected + Spurs 27 unprotected + 4 SRP (2 because Hornets won't convey as a first and 2 more Spurs gave up as such)

Honestly, for the Spurs, I'd rather have the latter package, and that's only considering cost of acquisition which isn't an accurate reflection of value (because Fox forced his way to the team). If Spurs wanted to move on from Fox, they'd get more than this once they extend him and becomes trade eligible. Like significantly more. They won't, however, because stabbing Fox like this would undoubtedly hurt their reputation with future free agents and trade targets.

You left off the Mavs 1st and Lively is already good (if often injured). A lotto pick that hits is easily worth two future lotto picks and there's no guarantee that either first the Spurs gave up lands in lottery. Klay's inclusion is meh but so was Collins (as evidenced by the fact that the Kings immediately rerouted him).

If you believe that Fox extended on a contract that pays him 30% of the cap is a really good trade asset, then that's what you believe. It's not what I believe.

Huh? I didn't leave off anything, you just missed it (the fact that I equated the Bulls pick to the Suns pick so simplified leaving both out). So then my point is it comes down to Lively and bad money vs the picks, Lively isn't a good fit to be worth it for the Spurs. Like it or not, Fox is a top 25/30 player in the league who has had to carry a bigger load than he should, healthy and in the right role he absolutely would get that contract in the market and, provided his availability stays the way it's been so far in his career (which can be said for anyone, really), you can easily move it for more assets. No brainer for the Spurs, and any team would have done that for the price tag.

For me, the value does look good for Dallas, probably too good. And SAS should stick to their plan unless Wemby issues are bigger than we think.

But for Dallas? Despite it being good value, Fox isn’t good enough to justify it. Because if there is an “all in” move coming, it should be with a player that fits well with Kyrie and AD. Maybe that does involve a third team with a star at a different position that wants Fox? And maybe that team adds some value to SAS at that point? No idea who that would be. But realistically, that third team probably should end up with Fox and Lively as Lively feels like wasted value next to Wemby. Assuming SAS didn’t just cut Dallas out and take the star there

But I’m more open to the idea of extending Gafford and trading Lively than most Dallas fans. Just think the end resulting roster should fit better together..

jayjaysee wrote:But I’m more open to the idea of extending Gafford and trading Lively than most Dallas fans. Just think the end resulting roster should fit better together..

I'm okay with this provided Lively holds enough value to headline a package for veteran difference maker who fits. I'm not sold he actually does though.

Texas Chuck wrote:

jayjaysee wrote:But I’m more open to the idea of extending Gafford and trading Lively than most Dallas fans. Just think the end resulting roster should fit better together..

I'm okay with this provided Lively holds enough value to headline a package for veteran difference maker who fits. I'm not sold he actually does though.

Yeah. That part I don’t disagree with. I spent a good amount of time throwing out Lively+2025+2029 first deals and didn’t come up with any one, that package can return, that really fits with the current “core” or stars...

But I think with where Dallas currently is, that’s the best path to try and make a contender…. and with the pick debt looming, might as well go that route?

I think the best realistic name is KD. But he’s not worth all that at this point IMHO. If he was, his team wouldn’t be behind Dallas somehow..

But it’s also not Fox..