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I was not a big fan of the Dame trade, because I thought the Bucks should have looked for someone more in the Giannis timeline.
It ultimately allowed them to convince him to extend, but clearly they are now close to the worst possible outcome, otherwise.
Wondering, what players could have they targeted instead, putting Dame + pick + swaps on the table?
The only guy who looked available that summer was Herro, and he was not nearly worth all that

Maybe Durant or Harden? But I am not sure that turns out any better for them.

They were already a bit of a spent force in terms of assests when they traded for Dame and they had the good fortune of bidding against the Heat who refused to make a good offer. Dame was a risky bet, but they needed to make it.

Contention windows close and there's only so much you can do fight that reality before you end up making things worse in the long run.. Brook was always really important to the Bucks given his fit with Giannis. He defied father time for longer than he had any right to, but he's having trouble staying on the floor in the postseason.

Nothing wrong with the play for Dame. Just because a move doesn't work out doesn't mean it wasn't a worthwhile play. As jbk correctly points out, they didn't have unlimited assets to go for the ideal fit. But they jumped when the opportunity came. I credit them for that.

Ryoga Hibiki wrote:The only guy who looked available that summer was Herro, and he was not nearly worth all that

Offering up smaller deals for Herro when he was his cheapest was likely the best scenario, while keeping Jrue. Heck, even keeping Middleton over Kuzma would have been much better.

I get the play for Dame. But Jrue was kind of the glue making everything else work. That one hurt, bad.

jbk1234 wrote:They were already a bit of a spent force in terms of assests when they traded for Dame and they had the good fortune of bidding against the Heat who refused to make a good offer. Dame was a risky bet, but they needed to make it.

Contention windows close and there's only so much you can do fight that reality before you end up making things worse in the long run.. Brook was always really important to the Bucks given his fit with Giannis. He defied father time for longer than he had any right to, but he's having trouble staying on the floor in the postseason.

I am not a fan these short term moves when you have a player like Giannis, who is 29 and willing to spend his career with you.
I like the idea of getting younger to extend the relevance window, because now they are a complete wasteland and the can only trade him.
The player must be on board, of course.

Scoot McGroot wrote:

Ryoga Hibiki wrote:The only guy who looked available that summer was Herro, and he was not nearly worth all that

Offering up smaller deals for Herro when he was his cheapest was likely the best scenario, while keeping Jrue. Heck, even keeping Middleton over Kuzma would have been much better.

I get the play for Dame. But Jrue was kind of the glue making everything else work. That one hurt, bad.

Hindsight is 20-20, but if they could have landed Herro, or another shot creating guard, to pair with Holdiay that would have been ideal.

But let’s be honest here, the window closed when Khris Middleton went from 2nd best player on a title team to borderline unplayable. Hard to recover from that.

R-DAWG wrote:

Scoot McGroot wrote:

Ryoga Hibiki wrote:The only guy who looked available that summer was Herro, and he was not nearly worth all that

Offering up smaller deals for Herro when he was his cheapest was likely the best scenario, while keeping Jrue. Heck, even keeping Middleton over Kuzma would have been much better.

I get the play for Dame. But Jrue was kind of the glue making everything else work. That one hurt, bad.

Hindsight is 20-20, but if they could have landed Herro, or another shot creating guard, to pair with Holdiay that would have been ideal.

But let’s be honest here, the window closed when Khris Middleton went from 2nd best player on a title team to borderline unplayable. Hard to recover from that.

I guess my question is, was there a chance that Middleton could have been healthy enough to contribute in the playoffs? Because Kuzma hasn’t helped them much, and is only barely out scoring Middleton in the playoffs this year. Meanwhile, Middleton was hobbling last year but went off in the playoffs against Indy and almost won that series himself.

Who knows?

Scoot McGroot wrote:

R-DAWG wrote:

Scoot McGroot wrote:
Offering up smaller deals for Herro when he was his cheapest was likely the best scenario, while keeping Jrue. Heck, even keeping Middleton over Kuzma would have been much better.

I get the play for Dame. But Jrue was kind of the glue making everything else work. That one hurt, bad.

Hindsight is 20-20, but if they could have landed Herro, or another shot creating guard, to pair with Holdiay that would have been ideal.

But let’s be honest here, the window closed when Khris Middleton went from 2nd best player on a title team to borderline unplayable. Hard to recover from that.

I guess my question is, was there a chance that Middleton could have been healthy enough to contribute in the playoffs? Because Kuzma hasn’t helped them much, and is only barely out scoring Middleton in the playoffs this year. Meanwhile, Middleton was hobbling last year but went off in the playoffs against Indy and almost won that series himself.

Who knows?

Taking this a step further - it really didn’t matter what they did over the past 2 years, Giannis was hurt the last 2 playoffs.

It’s just bad timing for Milwaukee. They had an all time great, they got a championship out of it, now they need 5 years to pay off their credit card bill

R-DAWG wrote:

Scoot McGroot wrote:

R-DAWG wrote:
Hindsight is 20-20, but if they could have landed Herro, or another shot creating guard, to pair with Holdiay that would have been ideal.

But let’s be honest here, the window closed when Khris Middleton went from 2nd best player on a title team to borderline unplayable. Hard to recover from that.

I guess my question is, was there a chance that Middleton could have been healthy enough to contribute in the playoffs? Because Kuzma hasn’t helped them much, and is only barely out scoring Middleton in the playoffs this year. Meanwhile, Middleton was hobbling last year but went off in the playoffs against Indy and almost won that series himself.

Who knows?

Taking this a step further - it really didn’t matter what they did over the past 2 years, Giannis was hurt the last 2 playoffs.

The 2 previous not including this year? Because Giannis is healthy this year.

It’s just bad timing for Milwaukee. They had an all time great, they got a championship out of it, now they need 5 years to pay off their credit card bill

Sure. Probably still worth it, though. And if they deal Giannis for the best building blocks and not just win now pieces, they’ll walk with a lot to rebuild with.

But yeah. Jrue, Dame, and Middleton were all super important and just aged at the same time, and quickly. And with no real youth in the building to develop behind and around them, when they fell off, they had nothing to hold them up.

I don't know, keep Jrue and trade Middleton for Lavine?

Scoot McGroot wrote:

R-DAWG wrote:

Scoot McGroot wrote:
I guess my question is, was there a chance that Middleton could have been healthy enough to contribute in the playoffs? Because Kuzma hasn’t helped them much, and is only barely out scoring Middleton in the playoffs this year. Meanwhile, Middleton was hobbling last year but went off in the playoffs against Indy and almost won that series himself.

Who knows?

Taking this a step further - it really didn’t matter what they did over the past 2 years, Giannis was hurt the last 2 playoffs.

The 2 previous not including this year? Because Giannis is healthy this year.

It’s just bad timing for Milwaukee. They had an all time great, they got a championship out of it, now they need 5 years to pay off their credit card bill

Sure. Probably still worth it, though. And if they deal Giannis for the best building blocks and not just win now pieces, they’ll walk with a lot to rebuild with.

But yeah. Jrue, Dame, and Middleton were all super important and just aged at the same time, and quickly. And with no real youth in the building to develop behind and around them, when they fell off, they had nothing to hold them up.

Correct - Giannis got hurt in the Miami series in 23 and missed the 24 playoffs. I think the Bucks are in the ECF last year if Giannis doesn't get hurt.

I think if Milwaukee could have one move back it's the DiVencenzo for Ibaka swap. But at the end of the day, the team couldn't stay healthy and then got old. It's life in the NBA.

R-DAWG wrote:

Scoot McGroot wrote:

R-DAWG wrote:
Taking this a step further - it really didn’t matter what they did over the past 2 years, Giannis was hurt the last 2 playoffs.

The 2 previous not including this year? Because Giannis is healthy this year.

It’s just bad timing for Milwaukee. They had an all time great, they got a championship out of it, now they need 5 years to pay off their credit card bill

Sure. Probably still worth it, though. And if they deal Giannis for the best building blocks and not just win now pieces, they’ll walk with a lot to rebuild with.

But yeah. Jrue, Dame, and Middleton were all super important and just aged at the same time, and quickly. And with no real youth in the building to develop behind and around them, when they fell off, they had nothing to hold them up.

Correct - Giannis got hurt in the Miami series in 23 and missed the 24 playoffs. I think the Bucks are in the ECF last year if Giannis doesn't get hurt.

Maybe, but Milwaukee lost a ton of games with Giannis healthy last year. Like, Giannis was 1-4 against the Pacers in the regular season when healthy.

I think if Milwaukee could have one move back it's the DiVencenzo for Ibaka swap. But at the end of the day, the team couldn't stay healthy and then got old. It's life in the NBA.

Man, DDV is like the questionable move for MANY teams. Like, Sacramento would be so much better off if they hadn't non-tendered DDV and kept him instead of trading a 1st for Huerter, huh? And GSW would look a whole lot different if they could've kept DDV, too?

Ryoga Hibiki wrote:

jbk1234 wrote:They were already a bit of a spent force in terms of assests when they traded for Dame and they had the good fortune of bidding against the Heat who refused to make a good offer. Dame was a risky bet, but they needed to make it.

Contention windows close and there's only so much you can do fight that reality before you end up making things worse in the long run.. Brook was always really important to the Bucks given his fit with Giannis. He defied father time for longer than he had any right to, but he's having trouble staying on the floor in the postseason.

I am not a fan these short term moves when you have a player like Giannis, who is 29 and willing to spend his career with you.
I like the idea of getting younger to extend the relevance window, because now they are a complete wasteland and the can only trade him.
The player must be on board, of course.

The flip side is the Dame trade got Giannis to extend. He was saying things before the Dame trade that called into question his willingness to retire a Buck. At least now they don't have to deal with *rental* offers when they trade him.