Spurs land Sabonis & KD to Houston

[jredsaz]

Spurs receive Domantas Sabonis, Dillon Brooks, 2027 SAS 1st via SAC (+$11.6M)
Spurs add an offensive hub while keeping Castle and #2. Sabonis/Wemby front court could be elite. Brooks is a win now piece. Hard capped team.

Top 8: Fox, Castle, Brooks, Sabonis, Wemby, #2, Champaign, MLE

Rockets receive Kevin Durant, #29 via PHX (-$2.2M)
Rockets get KD and keep their major assets including Sengun and Thompson. They are a championship level team with flexibility. Tax Team.

Top 8: FVV, Green, Amen, KD, Sengun, Tari, Whitmore, #29

Kings receive Harrison Barnes, Reed Sheppard, Jeremy Sochan, #10, 2027 ATL 1st via SAS, 2031 Swap Rights w/SAS (-$6.9M)
Kings lean further into a complete rebuild. They add young talent to Murray and Ellis and probably taking calls on all the vets. The pick package and swap really strengthen their draft assets moving forward. Tax team.

Top 8: Lavine, Ellis, DD, Murray, Jonas, Monk, Reed, Sochan

Suns receive Devin Vassell, Jabari Smith, Jock Landale, Aaron Holiday, #14 via HOU, 2027 PHX 1st (top 10 protected) via HOU (-$2.4M)
Suns build around Booker with young defensive role players with upside in Vassell and Smith. The pick swap with Houston allows the Suns to move into the lottery which is reportedly a goal. Suns regain a future pick but Houston retains the picks high upside. Apron team.

Top 8: Booker, Beal, Vassell, Jabari, Richard’s, Allen, Dunn, Royce

[LarsV8]

So that looks like Houston is sending:

Dillon, Reed, Jabari, #10, and 2027 #1
for
Durant, #29

That is a fairly emphatic no, and not particularly close to something workable either.

The absolute max offer I would make would be FVV or Green, Jock and #10 (maybe haggle over some 2nds). And this would have to include Durant extending at a very reasonable deal, something 2x25.

Anything other than that, or even a bigger extension, Houston just wouldn't be interested.

[Chinook]

I don't have Durant taking more than a 50-percent paycut as "very reasonable". I would but a $75M/2 deal as still being very team-friendly and $90M/2 to be on line being team-friendly and just honest about Durant's capabilities at this point in his career.

I've mentioned before that I think Sabonis about the worst type of player for the Spurs to invest a large amount of cap space and draft picks around. On one hand, the Spurs are giving up 14, the 31 swap and swapping their 2027 pick for Atlanta's, which seems like a relatively cheap price. (I can't say for sure, because this format only has a receives field, and that makes it really hard to track over a four-team deal.) On the other hand, let another team figure that out. Houston and Phoenix can talk a Durant deal. SA and SAC don't have anything to talk about.

[longfellow44]

This is an absolute joke as far as the kings go.
The idea that the kings would include a pick back is insulting.
Zero interest in that trade package.
You need to add more picks to the kings or better prospects

[One_and_Done]

Spurs don't want Sabonis. He plays the same position as Wemby. Bad for Houston too.

[SNPA]

Spurs don't want Sabonis. He plays the same position as Wemby. Bad for Houston too.

Why can Chet/Hart play together but not VW/Sabonis?

[One_and_Done]

Spurs don't want Sabonis. He plays the same position as Wemby. Bad for Houston too.

Why can Chet/Hart play together but not VW/Sabonis?

Both Chet/Hart play D, and Chet is a great floor spacer. Sabonis isn't, so he's occupying space in the post you want Wemby to utilise more. That's less of a problem for Chet, because Chet is not really a post player; he is better utilised taking 3s or cutting to the basket. Also the Thunder don't play both those guys together full-time. When the match up dictates it they can just go 'small' with Chet at the 5. On the other hand, I can't see Sabonis agreeing to situational benchings, or to playing only 25-27mpg.

Chet has a slight mobility advantage when guarding the perimeter over Wemby too, one of Chet's few advantages. Sabonis can't guard either the post or perimeter. So you're shackling Wemby to a flawed player who takes away some of his advantages, instead of a guy who accentuates them.

[SNPA]

Spurs don't want Sabonis. He plays the same position as Wemby. Bad for Houston too.

Why can Chet/Hart play together but not VW/Sabonis?

Both Chet/Hart play D, and Chet is a great floor spacer. Sabonis isn't, so he's occupying space in the post you want Wemby to utilise more. That's less of a problem for Chet, because Chet is not really a post player; he is better utilised taking 3s or cutting to the basket. Also the Thunder don't play both those guys together full-time. When the match up dictates it they can just go 'small' with Chet at the 5. On the other hand, I can't see Sabonis agreeing to situational benchings, or to playing only 25-27mpg.

Chet has a slight mobility advantage when guarding the perimeter over Wemby too, one of Chet's few advantages. Sabonis can't guard either the post or perimeter. So you're shackling Wemby to a flawed player who takes away some of his advantages, instead of a guy who accentuates them.

Disagree with almost all of it. Sabonis isn’t a post player, that flaw undermines a lot of your points on offense. On defense Sabonis takes and gives out the physicality, sparing VW. They’d fit amazingly and just like Chet/Hart they’d be playing this time next year.

[One_and_Done]

Why can Chet/Hart play together but not VW/Sabonis?

Both Chet/Hart play D, and Chet is a great floor spacer. Sabonis isn't, so he's occupying space in the post you want Wemby to utilise more. That's less of a problem for Chet, because Chet is not really a post player; he is better utilised taking 3s or cutting to the basket. Also the Thunder don't play both those guys together full-time. When the match up dictates it they can just go 'small' with Chet at the 5. On the other hand, I can't see Sabonis agreeing to situational benchings, or to playing only 25-27mpg.

Chet has a slight mobility advantage when guarding the perimeter over Wemby too, one of Chet's few advantages. Sabonis can't guard either the post or perimeter. So you're shackling Wemby to a flawed player who takes away some of his advantages, instead of a guy who accentuates them.

Disagree with almost all of it. Sabonis isn’t a post player, that flaw undermines a lot of your points on offense. On defense Sabonis takes and gives out the physicality, sparing VW. They’d fit amazingly and just like Chet/Hart they’d be playing this time next year.

Sabonis needs the ball, and does alot of his work 9n offense in the same spots Wemby will be, regardless of whether he is a back to the basket post player he is still operating in the high post alot.

Sabonis 'gives' physicality on D in the same way Reggie Evans would. That does not mean it makes sense to acquire a bruising rebounder who stands where Wemby does alot and can't guard the perimeter. Unlike Hartenstein, Sabonis can't guard 5s either.

[SNPA]

Both Chet/Hart play D, and Chet is a great floor spacer. Sabonis isn't, so he's occupying space in the post you want Wemby to utilise more. That's less of a problem for Chet, because Chet is not really a post player; he is better utilised taking 3s or cutting to the basket. Also the Thunder don't play both those guys together full-time. When the match up dictates it they can just go 'small' with Chet at the 5. On the other hand, I can't see Sabonis agreeing to situational benchings, or to playing only 25-27mpg.

Chet has a slight mobility advantage when guarding the perimeter over Wemby too, one of Chet's few advantages. Sabonis can't guard either the post or perimeter. So you're shackling Wemby to a flawed player who takes away some of his advantages, instead of a guy who accentuates them.

Disagree with almost all of it. Sabonis isn’t a post player, that flaw undermines a lot of your points on offense. On defense Sabonis takes and gives out the physicality, sparing VW. They’d fit amazingly and just like Chet/Hart they’d be playing this time next year.

Sabonis needs the ball, and does alot of his work 9n offense in the same spots Wemby will be, regardless of whether he is a back to the basket post player he is still operating in the high post alot.

Sabonis 'gives' physicality on D in the same way Reggie Evans would. That does not mean it makes sense to acquire a bruising rebounder who stands where Wemby does alot and can't guard the perimeter. Unlike Hartenstein, Sabonis can't guard 5s either.

Obviously we are never going to come to any sort of common ground. I think you are just wrong. Running a double high post is a proven way to structure an NBA offense going back to Vlade/Webber. Sabonis is a better passer and shooter than Hart, he doesn’t clog up anything…he opens up the offense and makes it more dynamic. He led the best offense in history two years ago.

Sabonis > Hart
VW > Chet

Chet/Hart are on the verge of the finals.

I think you’d be better off arguing from the Miles Turner angle than the paths you’ve selected.

[One_and_Done]

Disagree with almost all of it. Sabonis isn’t a post player, that flaw undermines a lot of your points on offense. On defense Sabonis takes and gives out the physicality, sparing VW. They’d fit amazingly and just like Chet/Hart they’d be playing this time next year.

Sabonis needs the ball, and does alot of his work 9n offense in the same spots Wemby will be, regardless of whether he is a back to the basket post player he is still operating in the high post alot.

Sabonis 'gives' physicality on D in the same way Reggie Evans would. That does not mean it makes sense to acquire a bruising rebounder who stands where Wemby does alot and can't guard the perimeter. Unlike Hartenstein, Sabonis can't guard 5s either.

Obviously we are never going to come to any sort of common ground. I just think you are wrong. Running a double high post is a proven way to structure an NBA offense going back to Vlade/Webber. Sabonis is a better passer and shooter than Hart, he doesn’t clog up anything…he opens up the offense and makes it more dynamic. He led the best offense in history two years ago.

Sabonis > Hart
VW > Chet

Chet/Hart are on the verge of the finals.

I think you’d be better off arguing from the Miles Turner angle than the paths you’ve selected.

The ideal 4 to put next to Wemby is a JJJ/Chet/Mobley type, though a Tatum/Wagner-who-hits-3s type would be great too.

[Chinook]

Sabonis needs the ball, and does alot of his work 9n offense in the same spots Wemby will be, regardless of whether he is a back to the basket post player he is still operating in the high post alot.

Sabonis 'gives' physicality on D in the same way Reggie Evans would. That does not mean it makes sense to acquire a bruising rebounder who stands where Wemby does alot and can't guard the perimeter. Unlike Hartenstein, Sabonis can't guard 5s either.

Obviously we are never going to come to any sort of common ground. I just think you are wrong. Running a double high post is a proven way to structure an NBA offense going back to Vlade/Webber. Sabonis is a better passer and shooter than Hart, he doesn’t clog up anything…he opens up the offense and makes it more dynamic. He led the best offense in history two years ago.

Sabonis > Hart
VW > Chet

Chet/Hart are on the verge of the finals.

I think you’d be better off arguing from the Miles Turner angle than the paths you’ve selected.

The ideal 4 to put next to Wemby is a JJJ/Chet/Mobley type, though a Tatum/Wagner-who-hits-3s type would be great too.

If you're not just looking at them superficially, Wemby and Chet are such different players that it doesn't make sense to compare them. I have no doubt in my mind if Wemby just wanted to be a role-player that he'd help boost Sabonis's weaknesses, sort of as a better Myles Turner. It's not perfect, because Wemby's most effective defensively guarding centers and not being stuck on the perimeter, but he'd probably do okay.

It's the other side of that that doesn't work at all. People advertise Sabonis being a hub as if a team with three point-guards and a young center who wants to operate with the ball in his hands would actually want to have such a player. The team is starving for efficient off-ball players. That's a big reason why a third star really isn't the priority some want it to be. For whatever reason, the Spurs decided to develop almost all their prospects over the past decade to be much better on the ball rather than off it. Now they need guys who could shoot, roll and finish so they can actually build an offensive system that makes the players better.

I agree JJJ would be a really good fit if the Spurs were contractually obligated to have a star PF. But I'd take Jarrett Allen over Sabonis every day of the week. I'd ultimately prefer they just draft a guy at 14 like Sorber, re-sign Bismack and maybe Mamu if the roster allows it, have another young center as a two-way and call that position handled for now.

[One_and_Done]

The only use for Jarrett Allen is to back Wemby up.

[Chinook]

The only use for Jarrett Allen is to back Wemby up.

While I don't want the Spurs to trade for Allen either, I think getting a finisher for Wemby to pass to is very different than getting a on-ball player to pass to Wemby. The Spurs did a lot to help their vertical spacing issues with Fox and Castle and likely will get yet another guard who'll let with that in Harper. But they still lack that threat in the front court. There's a reason why Wemby paired much better with a rim-runner in Charles Bassey than he did in a big like Collins who was both more talented than Bassey and ostensibly had a style of play far more suited to matching Wemby.

The Spurs should continue to give Wemby chances in two-big lineups. They just shouldn't commit max money and multiple draft picks to those chances.

[jredsaz]

So that looks like Houston is sending:

Dillon, Reed, Jabari, #10, and 2027 #1
for
Durant, #29

That is a fairly emphatic no, and not particularly close to something workable either.

The absolute max offer I would make would be FVV or Green, Jock and #10 (maybe haggle over some 2nds). And this would have to include Durant extending at a very reasonable deal, something 2x25.

Anything other than that, or even a bigger extension, Houston just wouldn't be interested.

Well, I know this is more than you’re willing to give because Jabari is involved but Rockets do keep Green. If you read the OP the 2027 PHX pick is top 10 protected for the Rockets so they don’t lose the upside of the pick. I want Jabari in any KD to the Rockets trade. Not because he is a budding all star but he should be a high end role player. KD is better in that role right now and probably the next three years whether or not you admit it.

Again, there isn’t a reason in the world the Rockets give up FVV in a trade this summer short of a Giannis trade where you dump your entire pick inventory in the process - which strikes me as a dumb allocation of assets.

[jredsaz]

This is an absolute joke as far as the kings go.
The idea that the kings would include a pick back is insulting.
Zero interest in that trade package.
You need to add more picks to the kings or better prospects

Kings swap the ‘27 Spurs pick with the much better ‘27 ATL pick, get #10 in this draft, and avoid a possibly humiliating 2031 swap. I think that’s a wildly attractive pick haul for Sabonis. I get the quality of prospect tho. You would have to like Reed Sheppard to pull the trigger on this deal.

[jredsaz]

I don't have Durant taking more than a 50-percent paycut as "very reasonable". I would but a $75M/2 deal as still being very team-friendly and $90M/2 to be on line being team-friendly and just honest about Durant's capabilities at this point in his career.

I've mentioned before that I think Sabonis about the worst type of player for the Spurs to invest a large amount of cap space and draft picks around. On one hand, the Spurs are giving up 14, the 31 swap and swapping their 2027 pick for Atlanta's, which seems like a relatively cheap price. (I can't say for sure, because this format only has a receives field, and that makes it really hard to track over a four-team deal.) On the other hand, let another team figure that out. Houston and Phoenix can talk a Durant deal. SA and SAC don't have anything to talk about.

I think this view of Durant is completely off. KD is still an incredibly effective player. If he plays like three more games last season he makes an all NBA team. There isn’t anything that has significantly declined in his game post Achilles injury. His shot making ability and length will age well. If a young team with cap flexibility and a culture wants a super charged championship contender level jump at a discount, KD is a great option.

[LarsV8]

Well, I know this is more than you’re willing to give because Jabari is involved but Rockets do keep Green. If you read the OP the 2027 PHX pick is top 10 protected for the Rockets so they don’t lose the upside of the pick. I want Jabari in any KD to the Rockets trade. Not because he is a budding all star but he should be a high end role player. KD is better in that role right now and probably the next three years whether or not you admit it.

Jabari is not available in any Durant trade.

The best offer would be FVV or Green, Jock, and #10.

Durant isn't worth 55m and he sure as hell isn't worth 145m.

[wemby]

I think this view of Durant is completely off. KD is still an incredibly effective player. If he plays like three more games last season he makes an all NBA team. There isn’t anything that has significantly declined in his game post Achilles injury. His shot making ability and length will age well. If a young team with cap flexibility and a culture wants a super charged championship contender level jump at a discount, KD is a great option.

If you have an all NBA guy with no injury/decline/salary concerns in sight, you should keep him and make other adjustments around him. Yet, we see Durant trade proposals every day, by SUNS FANS, not other teams. I wonder why that is...

You can tell yourself whatever you want, Durant is a great player and no one is going to dispute that, but the fact is he'll by 37 by the start of next season, has a long and serious injury history, is paid a max, and is on an expiring. All of that makes his value way, way less than his peak performance would have you believe, and this is an honest, unbiased assessment, as I have said multiple times I would not trade for him for the Spurs.

Suns need to acknowledge what they paid for him is a sunk cost and move on quickly before his value goes down even more, strike a deal with the Rockets or any team that will offer you a couple of useful vets even if little to no draft capital is attached, if the perception around the league is that the Suns are not an imminent shipwreck, you might be able to recoup your own picks for far cheaper than it'd be right now as the state of your team had their value skyrocket.

[Chinook]

I don't have Durant taking more than a 50-percent paycut as "very reasonable". I would but a $75M/2 deal as still being very team-friendly and $90M/2 to be on line being team-friendly and just honest about Durant's capabilities at this point in his career.

I've mentioned before that I think Sabonis about the worst type of player for the Spurs to invest a large amount of cap space and draft picks around. On one hand, the Spurs are giving up 14, the 31 swap and swapping their 2027 pick for Atlanta's, which seems like a relatively cheap price. (I can't say for sure, because this format only has a receives field, and that makes it really hard to track over a four-team deal.) On the other hand, let another team figure that out. Houston and Phoenix can talk a Durant deal. SA and SAC don't have anything to talk about.

I think this view of Durant is completely off. KD is still an incredibly effective player. If he plays like three more games last season he makes an all NBA team. There isn’t anything that has significantly declined in his game post Achilles injury. His shot making ability and length will age well. If a young team with cap flexibility and a culture wants a super charged championship contender level jump at a discount, KD is a great option.

... Did you even read my post?