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Unrealistic, but curious how folks think this kind of a framework would be balanced

MIA - Towns + Hart
NYK - Adebayo + Quickley
TOR - Herro

I mean the Raptors do it, but I don't see it for the Heat unless they make a lot of other moves.

cgf wrote:Unrealistic, but curious how folks think this kind of a framework would be balanced

MIA - Towns + Hart
NYK - Adebayo + Quickley
TOR - Herro

Seems terrible for Miami

How can you value Herro and Quickley the same?

ReggiesKnicks wrote:

cgf wrote:Unrealistic, but curious how folks think this kind of a framework would be balanced

MIA - Towns + Hart
NYK - Adebayo + Quickley
TOR - Herro

Seems terrible for Miami

How can you value Herro and Quickley the same?

He didnt say they were the same, he asked for help to balance it.

But i wouldnt pay to turn quickley into Herro. Rather have IQs contract and off ball effectiveness next to BI/Barnes

cgf wrote:Unrealistic, but curious how folks think this kind of a framework would be balanced

MIA - Towns + Hart
NYK - Adebayo + Quickley
TOR - Herro

Not sure why Miami does this. Looks like they just become the Knicks without Brunson with possibly a worse supporting cast while being similarly strapped for trade assets. What is your reasoning for the Heat to do this? The upside seems extremely limited.

Godaddycurse wrote:

ReggiesKnicks wrote:

cgf wrote:Unrealistic, but curious how folks think this kind of a framework would be balanced

MIA - Towns + Hart
NYK - Adebayo + Quickley
TOR - Herro

Seems terrible for Miami

How can you value Herro and Quickley the same?

He didnt say they were the same, he asked for help to balance it.

But i wouldnt pay to turn quickley into Herro. Rather have IQs contract and off ball effectiveness next to BI/Barnes

Well, you should do it, and I like IQ, but the difference is quite big, in my opinion... we're talking about a 25-year-old all-star.

ReggiesKnicks wrote:

cgf wrote:Unrealistic, but curious how folks think this kind of a framework would be balanced

MIA - Towns + Hart
NYK - Adebayo + Quickley
TOR - Herro

Seems terrible for Miami

How can you value Herro and Quickley the same?

Agree that Herro is better than Quickley, but for TOR, switching from one combo guard to another doesn't change the team's outlook at all in the next couple of seasons, and IQs contract is cheaper than Herro's in 13 months. I don't like the trio of Ingram/Barrett/Quickley, but I wouldn't like the trio of Ingram/Barrett/Herro either.

Take TOR out and simplify it to
MIA : Towns + Hart
NYK : Adebayo + Herro

and NYK clearly owes quite a bit of value

Astaluego wrote:

Godaddycurse wrote:

ReggiesKnicks wrote:
Seems terrible for Miami

How can you value Herro and Quickley the same?

He didnt say they were the same, he asked for help to balance it.

But i wouldnt pay to turn quickley into Herro. Rather have IQs contract and off ball effectiveness next to BI/Barnes

Well, you should do it, and I like IQ, but the difference is quite big, in my opinion... we're talking about a 25-year-old all-star.

Not interested in selling low on IQ

JayTWill wrote:

cgf wrote:Unrealistic, but curious how folks think this kind of a framework would be balanced

MIA - Towns + Hart
NYK - Adebayo + Quickley
TOR - Herro

Not sure why Miami does this. Looks like they just become the Knicks without Brunson with possibly a worse supporting cast while being similarly strapped for trade assets. What is your reasoning for the Heat to do this? The upside seems extremely limited.

Heat get out from Bam's contract before it balloons, and get the #1 option that they desperately lack, with Ware in place as a strong fit next to Towns in the frontcourt. Hart is a heat culture guy who makes the money work.

oldncreaky wrote:

ReggiesKnicks wrote:

cgf wrote:Unrealistic, but curious how folks think this kind of a framework would be balanced

MIA - Towns + Hart
NYK - Adebayo + Quickley
TOR - Herro

Seems terrible for Miami

How can you value Herro and Quickley the same?

Agree that Herro is better than Quickley, but for TOR, switching from one combo guard to another doesn't change the team's outlook at all in the next couple of seasons, and IQs contract is cheaper than Herro's in 13 months. I don't like the trio of Ingram/Barrett/Quickley, but I wouldn't like the trio of Ingram/Barrett/Herro either.

Take TOR out and simplify it to
MIA : Towns + Hart
NYK : Adebayo + Herro

and NYK clearly owes quite a bit of value

That's what I was curious about because Bam is going to be paid as much as Towns in just a year, and Herro is a bigger defensive liability than Towns, without providing as much offensive punch. Plus they've got Ware already in place to protect the rim for Towns without ruining their spacing. So I was wondering if the Towns-Bam gap would be bigger than the Hart-Herro gap.

Astaluego wrote:

Godaddycurse wrote:

ReggiesKnicks wrote:
Seems terrible for Miami

How can you value Herro and Quickley the same?

He didnt say they were the same, he asked for help to balance it.

But i wouldnt pay to turn quickley into Herro. Rather have IQs contract and off ball effectiveness next to BI/Barnes

Well, you should do it, and I like IQ, but the difference is quite big, in my opinion... we're talking about a 25-year-old all-star.

That's kinda what I expected people's take to be and why I figured it made sense to loop Toronto in...especially with Masai seeming to want to win...but IQ is a much better two-way player, which is why I'd rather have him next to Brunson/McBride/Shamet/Kolek than Herro.

cgf wrote:

oldncreaky wrote:

ReggiesKnicks wrote:
Seems terrible for Miami

How can you value Herro and Quickley the same?

Agree that Herro is better than Quickley, but for TOR, switching from one combo guard to another doesn't change the team's outlook at all in the next couple of seasons, and IQs contract is cheaper than Herro's in 13 months. I don't like the trio of Ingram/Barrett/Quickley, but I wouldn't like the trio of Ingram/Barrett/Herro either.

Take TOR out and simplify it to
MIA : Towns + Hart
NYK : Adebayo + Herro

and NYK clearly owes quite a bit of value

That's what I was curious about because Bam is going to be paid as much as Towns in just a year, and Herro is a bigger defensive liability than Towns, without providing as much offensive punch. Plus they've got Ware already in place to protect the rim for Towns without ruining their spacing. So I was wondering if the Towns-Bam gap would be bigger than the Hart-Herro gap.

Outsider's opinion, but I've got
Herro significantly better than Hart (not really close)
Adebayo and Towns being roughly equal -- but with my personal tastes, I'd take Bam over Towns

Maybe I watched too much of Ben Wallace, but C is absolutely the last position on the floor where I am willing to sacrifice defence for offence. I prefer having a C who can anchor a defence and close games over someone like Towns how, while a great offensive player, means having team defence issues and might find himself sitting on the bench during crucial times of playoff games, or shifted to PF, or . . .

I mean, if this NYK squad has Bam instead of Towns as the only change, I think they'd have had a better chance of beating Indiana, no?

cgf wrote:

JayTWill wrote:

cgf wrote:Unrealistic, but curious how folks think this kind of a framework would be balanced

MIA - Towns + Hart
NYK - Adebayo + Quickley
TOR - Herro

Not sure why Miami does this. Looks like they just become the Knicks without Brunson with possibly a worse supporting cast while being similarly strapped for trade assets. What is your reasoning for the Heat to do this? The upside seems extremely limited.

Heat get out from Bam's contract before it balloons, and get the #1 option that they desperately lack, with Ware in place as a strong fit next to Towns in the frontcourt. Hart is a heat culture guy who makes the money work.

I'm just not sure what the Heat accomplish with this trade. They just seem like they get older with less upside but still relatively expensive. Would you really want to build a 30-ish year old core of Rozier/Hart/Wiggins/KAT/Robinson/Anderson/Highsmith and some young guys?

Yea I don’t think Riley breaks his streak of not trading with NY for this..

This is just bad value for the Heat. Bam Adebayo is much more valuable than KAT and while Tyler Herro and Josh Hart are good bit closer in value, I think teams are going to give up more for Tyler Herro at this point than they would for Josh Hart. Also Immanuel Quickley by himself is not worth anything close to Tyler Hero. Herro just came off of having all star level season, while Immanuel Quickley is viewed as a good player, he's also significantly overpaid compared to his actual production. Both the Knicks and especially the Raptors would need to add a good amount of value here and in the Knicks case, they simply don't have the assets to do so.

oldncreaky wrote:

cgf wrote:

oldncreaky wrote:
Agree that Herro is better than Quickley, but for TOR, switching from one combo guard to another doesn't change the team's outlook at all in the next couple of seasons, and IQs contract is cheaper than Herro's in 13 months. I don't like the trio of Ingram/Barrett/Quickley, but I wouldn't like the trio of Ingram/Barrett/Herro either.

Take TOR out and simplify it to
MIA : Towns + Hart
NYK : Adebayo + Herro

and NYK clearly owes quite a bit of value

That's what I was curious about because Bam is going to be paid as much as Towns in just a year, and Herro is a bigger defensive liability than Towns, without providing as much offensive punch. Plus they've got Ware already in place to protect the rim for Towns without ruining their spacing. So I was wondering if the Towns-Bam gap would be bigger than the Hart-Herro gap.

Outsider's opinion, but I've got
Herro significantly better than Hart (not really close)
Adebayo and Towns being roughly equal -- but with my personal tastes, I'd take Bam over Towns

Maybe I watched too much of Ben Wallace, but C is absolutely the last position on the floor where I am willing to sacrifice defence for offence. I prefer having a C who can anchor a defence and close games over someone like Towns how, while a great offensive player, means having team defence issues and might find himself sitting on the bench during crucial times of playoff games, or shifted to PF, or . . .

I mean, if this NYK squad has Bam instead of Towns as the only change, I think they'd have had a better chance of beating Indiana, no?

I agree with a lot of this in principle…outside of the last question, I think we don’t get as far…but things change when you start paying your center 50M a year. At that point I need more than a Ben Wallace…and Ben Wallace, Bam is not.

Which is why I think Towns has better value than Bam…at that price tag you have to be a major scoring option.

cgf wrote:

oldncreaky wrote:

cgf wrote:
That's what I was curious about because Bam is going to be paid as much as Towns in just a year, and Herro is a bigger defensive liability than Towns, without providing as much offensive punch. Plus they've got Ware already in place to protect the rim for Towns without ruining their spacing. So I was wondering if the Towns-Bam gap would be bigger than the Hart-Herro gap.

Outsider's opinion, but I've got
Herro significantly better than Hart (not really close)
Adebayo and Towns being roughly equal -- but with my personal tastes, I'd take Bam over Towns

Maybe I watched too much of Ben Wallace, but C is absolutely the last position on the floor where I am willing to sacrifice defence for offence. I prefer having a C who can anchor a defence and close games over someone like Towns how, while a great offensive player, means having team defence issues and might find himself sitting on the bench during crucial times of playoff games, or shifted to PF, or . . .

I mean, if this NYK squad has Bam instead of Towns as the only change, I think they'd have had a better chance of beating Indiana, no?

I agree with a lot of this in principle…outside of the last question, I think we don’t get as far…but things change when you start paying your center 50M a year. At that point I need more than a Ben Wallace…and Ben Wallace, Bam is not.

Which is why I think Towns has better value than Bam…at that price tag you have to be a major scoring option.

You’re trippin. Ben Wallace was a purely defensive player. While Bam isn’t an offense first guy, he can still put up 30 pts on any night that he wants to be aggressive. His numbers are a little down this year 18ppg on 48% but he averaged 20 ppg last year on over 50%. He will never be agressive enough to be a number one option, but you are right…Ben Wallace, he is not.

MorbidHEAT wrote:

cgf wrote:

oldncreaky wrote:
Outsider's opinion, but I've got
Herro significantly better than Hart (not really close)
Adebayo and Towns being roughly equal -- but with my personal tastes, I'd take Bam over Towns

Maybe I watched too much of Ben Wallace, but C is absolutely the last position on the floor where I am willing to sacrifice defence for offence. I prefer having a C who can anchor a defence and close games over someone like Towns how, while a great offensive player, means having team defence issues and might find himself sitting on the bench during crucial times of playoff games, or shifted to PF, or . . .

I mean, if this NYK squad has Bam instead of Towns as the only change, I think they'd have had a better chance of beating Indiana, no?

I agree with a lot of this in principle…outside of the last question, I think we don’t get as far…but things change when you start paying your center 50M a year. At that point I need more than a Ben Wallace…and Ben Wallace, Bam is not.

Which is why I think Towns has better value than Bam…at that price tag you have to be a major scoring option.

You’re trippin. Ben Wallace was a purely defensive player. While Bam isn’t an offense first guy, he can still put up 30 pts on any night that he wants to be aggressive. His numbers are a little down this year 18ppg on 48% but he averaged 20 ppg last year on over 50%. He will never be agressive enough to be a number one option, but you are right…Ben Wallace, he is not.

Bam is more of a two way player than Ben was…but his offensive game is absolutely awful for a 50M a year player, and his defense isn’t as dominant as Ben’s was to make up for it.

If Bam’s extension started at 40M instead of 53M it would be fine, but at that much of the cap, even 19-20ppg on 57-60% TS is poor.

cgf wrote:
If Bam’s extension started at 40M instead of 53M it would be fine, but at that much of the cap, even 19-20ppg on 57-60% TS is poor.

Problem is even though KAT scores more than Bam he gives up alot more on the other end too. I give edge to Bam ultimately due to availability/health and age.

Godaddycurse wrote:

cgf wrote:
If Bam’s extension started at 40M instead of 53M it would be fine, but at that much of the cap, even 19-20ppg on 57-60% TS is poor.

Problem is even though KAT scores more than Bam he gives up alot more on the other end too. I give edge to Bam ultimately due to availability/health and age.

A) Is the defensive gap actually bigger than the offensive gap, even if we ignore their roles and just compare them in a vacuum? Cause the impact metrics don't seem to agree:

Towns: +3.4 EPM, 2.53 DARKO, 2.72 LEBRON, 3.6 BPM, +5.6 On-Off
Bam: +1.9 EPM, 1.18 DARKO, 1.41 LEBRON, 2.0 BPM, -1.2 On-Off

B) different roles, Bam can't be even a 1b offensively. So his defense has to be really good to get him on the court as much as he is. Towns can anchor an offense...even if he needs someone to take over in crunch time...so you can surround him with better defenders who aren't as good offensively.

It's just really hard to afford a bench when you're paying your third option 50M+, and I dunno if you can contend with Bam as your second best offensive player unless you have a super elite offensive #1 and a few guys near Bam's level offensively...like we would with Mikal, IQ, and OG.