RealGM

Carter for Kolek/Dadiet

Kings do it for adjust an out of balance roster. Kolek has a chance at playing.

Knicks do it for better talent that fits their style. Carter will make a guy like Hart moveable eventually.

I don't know enough about Carter to have an opinion on whether the Knicks should give up 2 young unproven players from last year's draft for another young unproven player from last year's draft but I don't think this deal is financially possible for the Knicks.

They only have 12 players under contract and barely have enough room under the 2nd apron to fit one 2 year+ vet min and one rookie vet min to get to the minimum of 14 players the last time I checked. I don't think they can do a 2 for 1 deal.

Edit - There may be a chance of doing a 2 for 1 deal that drops the Knicks down to 11 players if they fill the next 3 spots with rookie vet mins but they may have to wait a few weeks into the season the prorate some of the salary. I assume they would really have to want Carter if they were willing to do all that. Where is Scoot to crunch the numbers?

SNPA wrote:Carter for Kolek/Dadiet

Kings do it for adjust an out of balance roster. Kolek has a chance at playing.

Knicks do it for better talent that fits their style. Carter will make a guy like Hart moveable eventually.

What the heck?!!

Devin Carter was absolutely awful last season. At 23, he still cannot shoot (37.0 FG%, 29.5 FG3%, 59.1 FT%, .441 eFG%, .471 TS%) or rebound, or pass, or defend. Don't get me wrong: Kolek sucks as well (so the value is kind of in the same ballpark), but neither Carter nor Kolek "will make a guy like Hart moveable eventually."

Dadiet still potentially has time to learn how to play basketball, so we wouldn't be trading him for Carter. Which makes this a proposed trade of one weak bench player for another. Our current weak bench guy (Kolek) is cheaper and can pass/play-make okay (though he can't shoot), so the Knicks say no.....

I’m not against the idea of using Dadiet for a more useful backup for this season, but I really liked the little we saw of McCullar as a potential Hart-replacement when the time comes to cash in before the miles catch up to him.

And I think Kolek will take Clarkson’s job a lot sooner than people expect. So I don’t love the idea of adding Kolek to Dadiet for another gritty guard/ undersized-wing like Hart, McBride, & McCullar…especially not when we’ve already got OG & Mikal.

Ideally we’d use Pacome and some of our draft capital for a Hukporti upgrade, so we could start the dual bigs with wing stop & Brunson; leaving that new backup 5, Hart, McBride, Clarkson/Kolek, and Yabusele/McCullar to fill out the bench.

taikibansei wrote:

SNPA wrote:Carter for Kolek/Dadiet

Kings do it for adjust an out of balance roster. Kolek has a chance at playing.

Knicks do it for better talent that fits their style. Carter will make a guy like Hart moveable eventually.

What the heck?!!

Devin Carter was absolutely awful last season. At 23, he still cannot shoot (37.0 FG%, 29.5 FG3%, 59.1 FT%, .441 eFG%, .471 TS%) or rebound, or pass, or defend. Don't get me wrong: Kolek sucks as well (so the value is kind of in the same ballpark), but neither Carter nor Kolek "will make a guy like Hart moveable eventually."

Dadiet still potentially has time to learn how to play basketball, so we wouldn't be trading him for Carter. Which makes this a proposed trade of one weak bench player for another. Our current weak bench guy (Kolek) is cheaper and can pass/play-make okay (though he can't shoot), so the Knicks say no.....

I’m not saying soon lol.

There are similar archetypes. I’m also a Carter believer. I think Carter ends up a good defender who rebounds extremely well for his size and can shoot well enough to be part of a modern offense. I think he has a solid role player career.

taikibansei wrote:

SNPA wrote:Carter for Kolek/Dadiet

Kings do it for adjust an out of balance roster. Kolek has a chance at playing.

Knicks do it for better talent that fits their style. Carter will make a guy like Hart moveable eventually.

What the heck?!!

Devin Carter was absolutely awful last season. At 23, he still cannot shoot (37.0 FG%, 29.5 FG3%, 59.1 FT%, .441 eFG%, .471 TS%) or rebound, or pass, or defend. Don't get me wrong: Kolek sucks as well (so the value is kind of in the same ballpark), but neither Carter nor Kolek "will make a guy like Hart moveable eventually."

Dadiet still potentially has time to learn how to play basketball, so we wouldn't be trading him for Carter. Which makes this a proposed trade of one weak bench player for another. Our current weak bench guy (Kolek) is cheaper and can pass/play-make okay (though he can't shoot), so the Knicks say no.....

Eh. Plenty of rookies “suck” before becoming real difference makers. I think McCullar could replace Hart eventually, but his numbers probably say he was awful

cgf wrote:

taikibansei wrote:

SNPA wrote:Carter for Kolek/Dadiet

Kings do it for adjust an out of balance roster. Kolek has a chance at playing.

Knicks do it for better talent that fits their style. Carter will make a guy like Hart moveable eventually.

What the heck?!!

Devin Carter was absolutely awful last season. At 23, he still cannot shoot (37.0 FG%, 29.5 FG3%, 59.1 FT%, .441 eFG%, .471 TS%) or rebound, or pass, or defend. Don't get me wrong: Kolek sucks as well (so the value is kind of in the same ballpark), but neither Carter nor Kolek "will make a guy like Hart moveable eventually."

Dadiet still potentially has time to learn how to play basketball, so we wouldn't be trading him for Carter. Which makes this a proposed trade of one weak bench player for another. Our current weak bench guy (Kolek) is cheaper and can pass/play-make okay (though he can't shoot), so the Knicks say no.....

Eh. Plenty of rookies “suck” before becoming real difference makers. I think McCullar could replace Hart eventually, but his numbers probably say he was awful

Carter was a 22-year-old rookie point guard. By this age, a point guard prospect--rookie or not--while not yet a complete package certainly, should be able to demonstrate something special in a category, be it superior shooting from 3, or superior passing in traffic, or superior offensive rebounding, or superior point of attack defense, etc., etc. Carter ranged from well below average to barely adequate everywhere--heck, he couldn't even shoot free throws.

Also, I think people (including some Knicks fans) really undervalue Hart. While I wish he could shoot better/more consistently from outside, he's a good rebounder, a good passer, and a good defender who plays hard each and every game...and who can even hit free throws. The Knicks will be lucky if McCullar can become that level player.

taikibansei wrote:

cgf wrote:

taikibansei wrote:
What the heck?!!

Devin Carter was absolutely awful last season. At 23, he still cannot shoot (37.0 FG%, 29.5 FG3%, 59.1 FT%, .441 eFG%, .471 TS%) or rebound, or pass, or defend. Don't get me wrong: Kolek sucks as well (so the value is kind of in the same ballpark), but neither Carter nor Kolek "will make a guy like Hart moveable eventually."

Dadiet still potentially has time to learn how to play basketball, so we wouldn't be trading him for Carter. Which makes this a proposed trade of one weak bench player for another. Our current weak bench guy (Kolek) is cheaper and can pass/play-make okay (though he can't shoot), so the Knicks say no.....

Eh. Plenty of rookies “suck” before becoming real difference makers. I think McCullar could replace Hart eventually, but his numbers probably say he was awful

Carter was a 22-year-old rookie point guard. By this age, a point guard prospect--rookie or not--while not yet a complete package certainly, should be able to demonstrate something special in a category, be it superior shooting from 3, or superior passing in traffic, or superior offensive rebounding, or superior point of attack defense, etc., etc. Carter ranged from well below average to barely adequate everywhere--heck, he couldn't even shoot free throws.

Also, I think people (including some Knicks fans) really undervalue Hart. While I wish he could shoot better/more consistently from outside, he's a good rebounder, a good passer, and a good defender who plays hard each and every game...and who can even hit free throws. The Knicks will be lucky if McCullar can become that level player.

Carter had a shoulder injury. He didn’t get training camp and missed the first several months of the season. When he did get to play the coach got fired and the star player demanded a trade and there was/is a giant backlog at his position. Context matters.

Carter has a massive wingspan (it’s kinda freaky looking when you see him in person), has great athletic numbers and a lot of his defensive efforts aren’t box score friendly. His rebounding will be absolutely elite for his role just like Hart. There’s a reason he went lottery last year…and people thought he slipped to 13.

I don't like this trade for the kings because I don't like the players we are getting back. Carter is going to be very good defensively and right now he is already solid despite the injury last season. But he isn't a point guard so start there, because if he was the kings wouldn't be looking to trade him.

He is a shooting guard and that is where he will likely play his majority of minutes in his career. He just doesn't have the mindset of a point guard.

But this trade is a no for me.

taikibansei wrote:

cgf wrote:

taikibansei wrote:
What the heck?!!

Devin Carter was absolutely awful last season. At 23, he still cannot shoot (37.0 FG%, 29.5 FG3%, 59.1 FT%, .441 eFG%, .471 TS%) or rebound, or pass, or defend. Don't get me wrong: Kolek sucks as well (so the value is kind of in the same ballpark), but neither Carter nor Kolek "will make a guy like Hart moveable eventually."

Dadiet still potentially has time to learn how to play basketball, so we wouldn't be trading him for Carter. Which makes this a proposed trade of one weak bench player for another. Our current weak bench guy (Kolek) is cheaper and can pass/play-make okay (though he can't shoot), so the Knicks say no.....

Eh. Plenty of rookies “suck” before becoming real difference makers. I think McCullar could replace Hart eventually, but his numbers probably say he was awful

Carter was a 22-year-old rookie point guard. By this age, a point guard prospect--rookie or not--while not yet a complete package certainly, should be able to demonstrate something special in a category, be it superior shooting from 3, or superior passing in traffic, or superior offensive rebounding, or superior point of attack defense, etc., etc. Carter ranged from well below average to barely adequate everywhere--heck, he couldn't even shoot free throws.

Also, I think people (including some Knicks fans) really undervalue Hart. While I wish he could shoot better/more consistently from outside, he's a good rebounder, a good passer, and a good defender who plays hard each and every game...and who can even hit free throws. The Knicks will be lucky if McCullar can become that level player.

Is this all based on stats from a rookie who missed most of the season due to injury? In addition to missing training camp, working on his game in the offseason and familiarity with schemes and his team. And when he did get on the court it was sporadic, inconsistent minutes.

There's 2 sides to Carter. The one where the talent is obvious and was talked about as a certain top 10 pick last year before the shoulder injury news came out that it needed surgery. The talent is there, his shot is funky, but he will be a very good NBA player. Anyone just looking at rookie stats is clearly lacking awareness in what his game is and what it will translate to, which is going to be an impact guy.

Now the 2nd side of Carter is he isn't going to have a long NBA career IMO. See it's not just his shoulder surgery from last year. He has had injuries to BOTH shoulders. Just watch 1 game of his and notice just how many times he hits the floor. He's on the floor after drives to the rim, after backing guards down, on the defensive end. It's A LOT. He's a physical player. That is going have an enormous impact on his career IMO, in terms of longevity. I hope that's not the case and he plays through to mid 30s. But I just don't see it, unless he is a low minute, 7-9 player, in which case he's not valuable at all. I think it would be best for the Kings to either raise his value this year and hope for an injury free 2nd season and then trade him.

So, on this trade I don't do it as I would be hoping for a better return in his early days. By the deadline, who knows what teams may be willing to give up for him. If he can get through the other 8 SGs on the Kings roster.

sackings916 wrote:

taikibansei wrote:

cgf wrote:
Eh. Plenty of rookies “suck” before becoming real difference makers. I think McCullar could replace Hart eventually, but his numbers probably say he was awful

Carter was a 22-year-old rookie point guard. By this age, a point guard prospect--rookie or not--while not yet a complete package certainly, should be able to demonstrate something special in a category, be it superior shooting from 3, or superior passing in traffic, or superior offensive rebounding, or superior point of attack defense, etc., etc. Carter ranged from well below average to barely adequate everywhere--heck, he couldn't even shoot free throws.

Also, I think people (including some Knicks fans) really undervalue Hart. While I wish he could shoot better/more consistently from outside, he's a good rebounder, a good passer, and a good defender who plays hard each and every game...and who can even hit free throws. The Knicks will be lucky if McCullar can become that level player.

Is this all based on stats from a rookie who missed most of the season due to injury? In addition to missing training camp, working on his game in the offseason and familiarity with schemes and his team. And when he did get on the court it was sporadic, inconsistent minutes.

If Carter's so good, keep him. I personally don't want to trade for a more expensive "shooting guard" with two injured shoulders who shot 37.0 FG%, 29.5 FG3%, 59.1 FT%, .441 eFG%, .471 TS% last season.

SNPA wrote:

taikibansei wrote:

cgf wrote:
Eh. Plenty of rookies “suck” before becoming real difference makers. I think McCullar could replace Hart eventually, but his numbers probably say he was awful

Carter was a 22-year-old rookie point guard. By this age, a point guard prospect--rookie or not--while not yet a complete package certainly, should be able to demonstrate something special in a category, be it superior shooting from 3, or superior passing in traffic, or superior offensive rebounding, or superior point of attack defense, etc., etc. Carter ranged from well below average to barely adequate everywhere--heck, he couldn't even shoot free throws.

Also, I think people (including some Knicks fans) really undervalue Hart. While I wish he could shoot better/more consistently from outside, he's a good rebounder, a good passer, and a good defender who plays hard each and every game...and who can even hit free throws. The Knicks will be lucky if McCullar can become that level player.

Carter had a shoulder injury. He didn’t get training camp and missed the first several months of the season. When he did get to play the coach got fired and the star player demanded a trade and there was/is a giant backlog at his position. Context matters.

Carter has a massive wingspan (it’s kinda freaky looking when you see him in person), has great athletic numbers and a lot of his defensive efforts aren’t box score friendly. His rebounding will be absolutely elite for his role just like Hart. There’s a reason he went lottery last year…and people thought he slipped to 13.

Hart last season averaged 13.6/9.6/5.9 (57.9 eFG%, .611 TS%). If Carter is going to become "just like Hart"--suddenly at 23--then why trade him?

I personally don't want to risk a trade for a "shooting guard" with an injured shoulder who shot 37.0 FG%, 29.5 FG3%, 59.1 FT%, .441 eFG%, .471 TS% last season.

taikibansei wrote:

sackings916 wrote:

taikibansei wrote:
Carter was a 22-year-old rookie point guard. By this age, a point guard prospect--rookie or not--while not yet a complete package certainly, should be able to demonstrate something special in a category, be it superior shooting from 3, or superior passing in traffic, or superior offensive rebounding, or superior point of attack defense, etc., etc. Carter ranged from well below average to barely adequate everywhere--heck, he couldn't even shoot free throws.

Also, I think people (including some Knicks fans) really undervalue Hart. While I wish he could shoot better/more consistently from outside, he's a good rebounder, a good passer, and a good defender who plays hard each and every game...and who can even hit free throws. The Knicks will be lucky if McCullar can become that level player.

Is this all based on stats from a rookie who missed most of the season due to injury? In addition to missing training camp, working on his game in the offseason and familiarity with schemes and his team. And when he did get on the court it was sporadic, inconsistent minutes.

If Carter's so good, keep him. I personally don't want to trade for a more expensive "shooting guard" with two injured shoulders who shot 37.0 FG%, 29.5 FG3%, 59.1 FT%, .441 eFG%, .471 TS% last season.

I’m not saying Carters good, I think that’s still TBD. My point is if you’re coming to a conclusion based off his stats last season alone there’s context that should be factored in as they don’t really tell much of anything.

sackings916 wrote:

taikibansei wrote:

sackings916 wrote:
Is this all based on stats from a rookie who missed most of the season due to injury? In addition to missing training camp, working on his game in the offseason and familiarity with schemes and his team. And when he did get on the court it was sporadic, inconsistent minutes.

If Carter's so good, keep him. I personally don't want to trade for a more expensive "shooting guard" with two injured shoulders who shot 37.0 FG%, 29.5 FG3%, 59.1 FT%, .441 eFG%, .471 TS% last season.

I’m not saying Carters good, I think that’s still TBD. My point is if you’re coming to a conclusion based off his stats last season alone there’s context that should be factored in as they don’t really tell much of anything.

Likewise with the two Knicks players in question...right?

That said, and despite his excellent passing/playmaking, I don't really have high hopes for Kolek. Just like Carter, Kolek was an older rookie who couldn't--and still can't--shoot. Those types of guards really tend to struggle unless they're absolutely elite in other areas. I just don't see it, but with both players, yes, it's just year #2. I've been wrong before.

Dadiet just turned 20. I.e., he's three years younger than both Carter and Kolek and still growing into his body. Still, he has size and has already demonstrated good athleticism. I'm more hopeful about him, but just a little.

taikibansei wrote:

sackings916 wrote:

taikibansei wrote:
If Carter's so good, keep him. I personally don't want to trade for a more expensive "shooting guard" with two injured shoulders who shot 37.0 FG%, 29.5 FG3%, 59.1 FT%, .441 eFG%, .471 TS% last season.

I’m not saying Carters good, I think that’s still TBD. My point is if you’re coming to a conclusion based off his stats last season alone there’s context that should be factored in as they don’t really tell much of anything.

Likewise with the two Knicks players in question...right?

That said, and despite his excellent passing/playmaking, I don't really have high hopes for Kolek. Just like Carter, Kolek was an older rookie who couldn't--and still can't--shoot. Those types of guards really tend to struggle unless they're absolutely elite in other areas. I just don't see it, but with both players, yes, it's just year #2. I've been wrong before.

Dadiet just turned 20. I.e., he's three years younger than both Carter and Kolek and still growing into his body. Still, he has size and has already demonstrated good athleticism. I'm more hopeful about him, but just a little.

Exactly. Did I say otherwise? And that’s precisely why I didn’t speak on the trade, because I’m not familiar with the Knicks players and I’m not just gonna look up their stats and come to a conclusion based on that alone.

I am higher on our guys here. also, not 100% sure on the money, but Knicks financially would not be able to fill the roster spots because getting a replacement player (unless it's end of season pro-rated which was a nightmare last year) would not be attainable. Like even if we use the free roster spot to sign Random Player to develop, I think that would break out bank.

We need quality players who are between 6'6'' and 6'9''
This does not help.

taikibansei wrote:

sackings916 wrote:

taikibansei wrote:
If Carter's so good, keep him. I personally don't want to trade for a more expensive "shooting guard" with two injured shoulders who shot 37.0 FG%, 29.5 FG3%, 59.1 FT%, .441 eFG%, .471 TS% last season.

I’m not saying Carters good, I think that’s still TBD. My point is if you’re coming to a conclusion based off his stats last season alone there’s context that should be factored in as they don’t really tell much of anything.

Likewise with the two Knicks players in question...right?

That said, and despite his excellent passing/playmaking, I don't really have high hopes for Kolek. Just like Carter, Kolek was an older rookie who couldn't--and still can't--shoot. Those types of guards really tend to struggle unless they're absolutely elite in other areas. I just don't see it, but with both players, yes, it's just year #2. I've been wrong before.

Dadiet just turned 20. I.e., he's three years younger than both Carter and Kolek and still growing into his body. Still, he has size and has already demonstrated good athleticism. I'm more hopeful about him, but just a little.

The guard position is probably the worst position to judge after a rookie season. There's a massive learning curve when it comes to skill development, decision-making, and overall understanding of the game.

https://www.noceilingsnba.com/p/the-point-guard-jump-requires-patience

dcstanley wrote:

taikibansei wrote:

sackings916 wrote:
I’m not saying Carters good, I think that’s still TBD. My point is if you’re coming to a conclusion based off his stats last season alone there’s context that should be factored in as they don’t really tell much of anything.

Likewise with the two Knicks players in question...right?

That said, and despite his excellent passing/playmaking, I don't really have high hopes for Kolek. Just like Carter, Kolek was an older rookie who couldn't--and still can't--shoot. Those types of guards really tend to struggle unless they're absolutely elite in other areas. I just don't see it, but with both players, yes, it's just year #2. I've been wrong before.

Dadiet just turned 20. I.e., he's three years younger than both Carter and Kolek and still growing into his body. Still, he has size and has already demonstrated good athleticism. I'm more hopeful about him, but just a little.

The guard position is probably the worst position to judge after a rookie season. There's a massive learning curve when it comes to skill development, decision-making, and overall understanding of the game.

https://www.noceilingsnba.com/p/the-point-guard-jump-requires-patience

Carter is 23, not 19. This is not a typical rookie, but instead a grown man. Also, fyi, he's shooting the same (i.e., absolutely awful) this summer league against crappy competition--28% from 3, 59% ft%, etc., etc.

Still, if Carter is not to be "judged" yet, then Kolek (who is shooting similarly) is not to be judged yet either. So why should the Knicks trade Kolek (let alone Dadiet) for him?

taikibansei wrote:

SNPA wrote:

taikibansei wrote:
Carter was a 22-year-old rookie point guard. By this age, a point guard prospect--rookie or not--while not yet a complete package certainly, should be able to demonstrate something special in a category, be it superior shooting from 3, or superior passing in traffic, or superior offensive rebounding, or superior point of attack defense, etc., etc. Carter ranged from well below average to barely adequate everywhere--heck, he couldn't even shoot free throws.

Also, I think people (including some Knicks fans) really undervalue Hart. While I wish he could shoot better/more consistently from outside, he's a good rebounder, a good passer, and a good defender who plays hard each and every game...and who can even hit free throws. The Knicks will be lucky if McCullar can become that level player.

Carter had a shoulder injury. He didn’t get training camp and missed the first several months of the season. When he did get to play the coach got fired and the star player demanded a trade and there was/is a giant backlog at his position. Context matters.

Carter has a massive wingspan (it’s kinda freaky looking when you see him in person), has great athletic numbers and a lot of his defensive efforts aren’t box score friendly. His rebounding will be absolutely elite for his role just like Hart. There’s a reason he went lottery last year…and people thought he slipped to 13.

Hart last season averaged 13.6/9.6/5.9 (57.9 eFG%, .611 TS%). If Carter is going to become "just like Hart"--suddenly at 23--then why trade him?

I personally don't want to risk a trade for a "shooting guard" with an injured shoulder who shot 37.0 FG%, 29.5 FG3%, 59.1 FT%, .441 eFG%, .471 TS% last season.

I didn’t say what you have in quotes. I same similar archetype. Which is true.

You’re referencing a small sample size that’s impacted by all the factors that have been listed.