RealGM

Posted: **Mon Jan 7, 2008 6:16 am**

I know that we've seen a lot, but I think this one may be the most logical.

That being said, there are two rules in trading Ben Wallace. Rule 1: A team will only take him if they are also getting Luol Deng or 2.) They will (maybe) take him if they are a contender. Rule two is met in this trade, I think.

Chicago Trades:
Ben Wallace
Joakim Noah
Viktor Khryapa
Thabo Sefolosha
Adrian Griffin
2008 1st
2010 1st

Chicago Receives:
Pau Gasol
Michael Finley
Frabrico Oberto

Why for Chicago?
Chicago solves a plethora of problems with this trade. The obvious two are gaining a star big man and adding a big shooting guard. Gasol will solidify the Bulls

Posted: **Mon Jan 7, 2008 6:19 am**

I can't see the Spurs doing this. Ben Wallace is too overpaid, and he really doesn't fit into what the Spurs do offensively.

Posted: **Mon Jan 7, 2008 6:23 am**

^Agreed. This may also be one of very few times where I've seen the Griz get significantly overpaid for Gasol

Posted: **Mon Jan 7, 2008 6:29 am**

Does it work for the Bulls and Grizzlies? Is there anything reasonable that could be done to make the Spurs take Wallace?

Posted: **Mon Jan 7, 2008 6:52 am**

bullzman23 wrote:Is there anything reasonable that could be done to make the Spurs take Wallace?

as currently constructed? god no.

and in all reality, still no. the spurs arent trading the salary (ie, players) necessary to get this deal done. period. the only players that would possible be on the table in any trade involving the spurs at this point are elson and maybe barry if the deal is a no-brainer. guys like finley, oberto, vaughn, horry, ect. are as good as off limits.

spurs are looking to win this year. unless it give us a clearly better chance, no way they go near a deal.

Posted: **Mon Jan 7, 2008 6:55 am**

ss1986v2 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

as currently constructed? god no.

and in all reality, still no. the spurs arent trading the salary (ie, players) necessary to get this deal done. period. the only players that would possible be on the table in any trade involving the spurs at this point are elson and maybe barry if the deal is a no-brainer. guys like finley, oberto, vaughn, horry, ect. are as good as off limits.

spurs are looking to win this year. unless it give us a clearly better chance, no way they go near a deal.

I can understand them not wanting to mess with chemistry. But aren't Wallace and Navarro significant upgrades over Oberto and Vaughn? Why would these two be off limits? Losing Finley obviously hurts though.

Posted: **Mon Jan 7, 2008 7:03 am**

The Spurs value chemistry over talent a lot of the time, and there is no way they trade five or six guys and take back a terrible contract.

Posted: **Mon Jan 7, 2008 7:11 am**

DanTown8587 wrote:The Spurs value chemistry over talent a lot of the time, and there is no way they trade five or six guys and take back a terrible contract.

I definitely understand that, but on paper I don't think chemistry is hurt.

Wallace isn't going to take away shots from anyone. If anything he'll make Duncan's job easier.

Navarro would be a huge addition off of the bench. He's averaging 10 ppg while shooting 39% behind the arch. If I remember correctly, the Spurs showed interest in him before he Wizards made their trade.

Griffin is good for chemistry. Warrick is a bit of an odd fit.

That being said I completely understand why the Spurs wouldn't do this trade. It's rare to see defending championship teams make big trades (the Rockets for Barkley is the last that I can remember), Finley is a big part of their SL, and Wallace's contract is annoying.

Posted: **Mon Jan 7, 2008 7:14 am**

bullzman23 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

I can understand them not wanting to mess with chemistry. But aren't Wallace and Navarro significant upgrades over Oberto and Vaughn? Why would these two be off limits? Losing Finley obviously hurts though.

yes, but what about the loss of both finley and barry? thats half of the spurs wing rotation (along with manu and bowen). and it gets replaced with what again?

look at it again: the spurs lose 4 members of their rotation (i dont count elson, although he was their last year, so its possibly 5), and get back 2 (pop would play both bonner and horry over warrick at the F/C, and griffin wouldnt see the floor).

there plently of other issues, ranging from the aforementioned depth, to learning the spurs system (which usually takes vets a year or more to pick up), to the non-issue the backup pg is for the spurs (they only need about 10-15 minutes a night come playoff time, thanks to manu and barry), and the chemistry issue. but i dont feel like devoting anymore paragraphs to them. if upgrading costs them almost an entire line up of rotation players, the spurs will pass.

Posted: **Mon Jan 7, 2008 7:31 am**

loserX wrote:^Agreed. This may also be one of very few times where I've seen the Griz get significantly overpaid for Gasol

I see no reason why the Spurs would do this trade, but I really don't see how the Grizz are really getting that over paid for Gasol.

Posted: **Mon Jan 7, 2008 7:31 am**

ss1986v2 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

yes, but what about the loss of both finley and barry? thats half of the spurs wing rotation (along with manu and bowen). and it gets replaced with what again?

look at it again: the spurs lose 4 members of their rotation (i dont count elson, although he was their last year, so its possibly 5), and get back 2 (pop would play both bonner and horry over warrick at the F/C, and griffin wouldnt see the floor).

there plently of other issues, ranging from the aforementioned depth, to learning the spurs system (which usually takes vets a year or more to pick up), to the non-issue the backup pg is for the spurs (they only need about 10-15 minutes a night come playoff time, thanks to manu and barry), and the chemistry issue. but i dont feel like devoting anymore paragraphs to them. if upgrading costs them almost an entire line up of rotation players, the spurs will pass.

Ok, fair enough. This trade also works, would you think the Spurs would be against it?

Spurs Trade: Bonner, Barry, Oberto, Elson, Vaughn, 08 1st
Spurs Receive: Wallace, J.Curry, Warrick

Grizzlies Trade: Gasol, Navarro, and Warrick
Grizzlies Receive: Bonner, Noah, Sefolosha, Barry, Vaughn, 08 1st (Chi), 08 1st (SAS), 2010 1st (Chi)

Bulls Trade: Noah, Sefolosha, Wallace, Curry, 2 firsts
Bulls Receive: Gasol, Navarro, Oberto

With Horry returning back into form and getting ready for the playoffs its likely that Bonner's minutes will get reduced anyways. Barry is a rotation player, but he's not vital. You basically keep Finley and lose Navarro, but gain Curry who has looked promising. I think it's a pretty sweet deal for the Spurs.

Grizzlies lose a little capspace by having to keep Bonner, but he's not too expensive and will be tradeable soon. One poster argued that they were getting perhaps too much anyway.

Posted: **Mon Jan 7, 2008 7:35 am**

vincecarter4pres wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

I see no reason why the Spurs would do this trade, but I really don't see how the Grizz are really getting that over paid for Gasol.

Maybe not overpaid, though I have yet to see a trade where the Grizzlies get $11.7 mill in capspace, 3 1st round picks, and two promising young players.

Posted: **Mon Jan 7, 2008 7:40 am**

bullzman23 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

Maybe not overpaid, though I have yet to see a trade where the Grizzlies get $11.7 mill in capspace, 3 1st round picks, and two promising young players.

True, but I have yet to see many realistic trades even proposed on RealGM period.

I am not even trying to sound like this, but I feel I usually post the most realistic and plausible trades on here, unless I give the blatant disclaimer that it is a flatout pipe dream scenario.

This is also why I usually don't get many responses to my trade threads, except on my own board.

Posted: **Mon Jan 7, 2008 8:12 am**

bullzman23 wrote:Ok, fair enough. This trade also works, would you think the Spurs would be against it?

ask yourself this before doing any trade involving the spurs: does it put them in better position to win a championship this year than they already are? if you even have to think about it, its going to be no deal.

in this new incarnation, the spurs send out 4 rotation players, and get back 1 and a half. warrick being a half because the spurs are forced to play him thanks to the lack of frontcourt depth this trade creates. they are left with a frontcourt rotation of duncan, wallace, horry, and warrick. thats not a very deep or large rotation there. curry wont see minute one this season, so i wont discuss him. now add the fact that they are now without any backup pg whatsoever. factor in chemistry and the time it takes to learn the system, and ask yourself if the spurs are in a better position to win a championship this year than they were before?

and i dont even think wallace is a good fit next to duncan in the first place. duncan is primarily used as an off-the-ball defender. the spurs have oberto/elson/bonner/horry guard the opposing teams best player (until late in the 4th) so duncan can stay out of foul trouble and be the roving shot blocking presence in the paint. isnt that the role wallace usually plays? didnt he always have rasheed to handle the man defense while he played more on the weakside? can he really play anywhere near his current deal if he is asked to be the primary low post defender for 75%+ of the game?

Posted: **Mon Jan 7, 2008 8:23 am**

ss1986v2 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

ask yourself this before doing any trade involving the spurs: does it put them in better position to win a championship this year than they already are?

I'd say absolutey. Wallace would probably play better next to Duncan than he does next to Smith. This trade probably gives you the best defensive and rebounding front-court in the NBA. I assume that would be a factor if you face the Celtics in the Finals. Though you don't need Wallace to beat Detroit, he'd be able to give great insight regarding the Pistons' strategies.

In this new incarnation, the spurs send out 4 rotation players, and get back 1 and a half. warrick being a half because the spurs are forced to play him thanks to the lack of frontcourt depth this trade creates.

Not necessarily. Oberto and Elson combine to play 37 mpg. Wallace currently plays 33, and has been playing around 39 with Boylan. That's only a four minute discrepency. You lose depth, but we're talking about Oberto and Elson here. Gaining Wallace and Warrick (who although may be viewed by some as a throw in, has nice stats in limited minutes) is a tremendous upgrade.

now add the fact that they are now without any backup pg whatsoever. factor in chemistry and the time it takes to learn the system, and ask yourself if the spurs are in a better position to win a championship this year than they were before?

Is Wallace a guy who really needs to learn the system? It's different for a vet like Finley who plays on the perimeter. But plays for big men aren't that complex. Wallace has played for Carlisle, Brown, Flip, and Skiles. I promise you he's seen just about every play in the playbook. As a big man, he's there to rebound and defend. I don't think he'd negatively affect chemistry (considering that Elson and Oberto aren't offensive players) unless he came with a negative attitude or something.

I don't consider losing Bonner as an issue. His minutes are going to go down as soon as Horry is ready. You're basically losing Barry and Vaughn for Wallace (I think he and Warrick replace Oberto and Elson easily). Sure you're guard depth is affected, but neither are vital to your success. Ginoboli is only playing 29 mpg. Finley is only playing 27. Even Parker is playing a bit less than 35 mpg which isn't too much. Add 2-3 minutes to these guys' playing time, and the void left by Barry and Vaugh is softened. Ginoboli has shown that he can handle some PG duties. With the Jan. 10th deadline approaching more options will appear. It's possible that guys like Stoudamire and Cassell are bought out. Boykins is available. Gary Payton (I know, I know) thinks he can still play. There are some options.

didnt he always have rasheed to handle the man defense while he played more on the weakside? can he really play anywhere near his current deal if he is asked to be the primary low post defender for 75%+ of the game?

In Detroit he did, but in Chicago he defends the best post player for the majority of the game. That changes if Thomas and Noah are in the game, but Smith and Noce play more so that's not the case for the majority of the game. He doesn't have a problem with foul trouble so I don't think its an issue.

Posted: **Mon Jan 7, 2008 8:51 am**

bullzman23 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

In Detroit he did, but in Chicago he defends the best post player for the majority of the game. That changes if Thomas and Noah are in the game, but Smith and Noce play more so that's not the case for the majority of the game. He doesn't have a problem with foul trouble so I don't think its an issue.

and he has looked like a shell of his former self ever since signing in chicago.

and i think you underrate the learning the system issue for the spurs. oberto didnt get it until the end of his second season. horry didnt get it until his second year. bonner is just now beggining to get it. and elson has never gotten close to getting it. its all about rotations (on both ends) and knowing how and where the shooter like to move. its not plays, its learning to anticipate what your teammates are going to do before they do it. its a matter of familiarity and instincts, not memorization.

i guess we just not going to agree on this. i see the addition of wallace through the subtraction of barry, oberto, elson, bonner, and vaughn a gigantic downgrade on nearly every front (front court depth shot, wing rotation gimped, pg rotation shot, chemistry disrupted). not to mention the fiscal concerns, which kill the deal before it even gets off the ground in the first place (spurs would never take that deal on after finally freeing themselves from luxury tax concerns come next year).

Posted: **Mon Jan 7, 2008 9:10 am**

ss1986v2 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

and he has looked like a shell of his former self ever since signing in chicago.

I personally think that has more to do with his front-court mates. It's one thing to be a 6'7" center and having Rasheed Wallace help you out. It's an entirely different thing to have a 6'7" Andres Nocioni, a rookie Tyrus Thomas, a fat Mike Sweetney, a terrible Malik Allen, and a 85 year old PJ Brown help you. This year's decline probably had much more to do with him souring on Skiles. With Skiles gone he's been a totally different player.

and i think you underrate the learning the system issue for the spurs. oberto didnt get it until the end of his second season. horry didnt get it until his second year. bonner is just now beggining to get it. and elson has never gotten close to getting it. its all about rotations (on both ends) and knowing how and where the shooter like to move. its not plays, its learning to anticipate what your teammates are going to do before they do it. its a matter of familiarity and instincts, not memorization.

Let's look at Horry. He was playing with Phil Jackson for five seasons prior to joining the Spurs. The Triangle Offense is a system quite different than any other offense in the league. It's not surprising that it'd take him awhile to get used to a new fit. Oberto came from overseas. It takes all European players a year or two to adjust to the NBA game. Bonner and Elson are bench players, Wallace is a likely future Hall of Famer. His bball IQ is significantly higher than those two. Larry Brown, Carlisle, and Skiles all have fairly similar coaching philosophies to Pop, whereas Jackson, Sam Mitchell, and George Karl don't. Wallace has also had five different head coaches over the last six seasons. Four of them are considered to be some of the finest coaches in the league. He's clearly used to adapting and has had his fair share of coaching. Any new player will face an adjustment period, but I don't think his adjustment will be as severe as you think.

i guess we just not going to agree on this. i see the addition of wallace through the subtraction of barry, oberto, elson, bonner, and vaughn a gigantic downgrade on nearly every front (front court depth shot, wing rotation gimped, pg rotation shot, chemistry disrupted).

Yeah, we'll have to agree to disagree. I certainly see the case for why the Spurs pass (mostly because it's inconvienient for defending champs to take risks), but I don't think it's a bad trade by any token.

I'm trying to think of it from your perspective.... if the Bulls were offered something like Charles Oakley (or Ho Grant/AD/etc.) for Steve Kerr, Randy Brown, Bill Wennington, and Dickey Simpkins I would have been reluctant to trade guys that I knew were proven, but at the same time I wouldn't have hesitated to pull the trigger.

Posted: **Mon Jan 7, 2008 1:12 pm**

loserX wrote:^Agreed. This may also be one of very few times where I've seen the Griz get significantly overpaid for Gasol

Really? The best asset coming to Memphis (the Bulls 08 first) gets devalued immediately after this trade is made - and 4 quarters doesn't equal a dollar in the nba (i.e. 4 bench role players is not the same as one quality prospect).

Posted: **Mon Jan 7, 2008 3:55 pm**

jefe wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

Really? The best asset coming to Memphis (the Bulls 08 first) gets devalued immediately after this trade is made - and 4 quarters doesn't equal a dollar in the nba (i.e. 4 bench role players is not the same as one quality prospect).

Nevertheless, I put Noah's value as a 1st rounder (albeit probably not one as high as he was actually picked last year). Even if those picks are late, name the last player who was traded for FOUR first round picks and ZERO bad contracts. I can't think of one.

Posted: **Mon Jan 7, 2008 4:05 pm**

vincecarter4pres wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

I see no reason why the Spurs would do this trade, but I really don't see how the Grizz are really getting that over paid for Gasol.

RealGM

Ultimate Gasol? Spurs/Bulls/Grizzlies

Ultimate Gasol? Spurs/Bulls/Grizzlies