Would Scaramento consider this salary dump?

[Zo]

Sacramento trades Mike Bibby and Brad Miller to Miami for Jason Williams, Ricky Davis, Alonzo Mourning and Earl Baron

(Trade ID # 4409403)

Miami gets the better talent, but Sacramento clears about $26MM in cap space immediately. Not sure I would do it as a HEAT fan, but I'd like to hear the Kings fan perspective on this deal...

[loserX]

I am not a Kings fan, but I doubt it. They should be able to get expirings and a young asset for Bibby (once he's back and healthy and producing, of course...standard disclaimer), and possibly the same for Miller. This is just expirings.

But would the Heat really want to pay Shaq and Miller AND Blount to handle the C position?

[rpa]

Not even close for the Kings.

[gswhoops]

Why does Miami want to sink $40M a year into 3 players who all play the same position?

Bad deal value wise for Sacramento and doesn't make sense for Miami...

[LPKingsFan]

Nope. It's been established I'd say that Bibby is worth well more than just a dump, and quite a lot of people are finally coming around on Miller, too.

[Snakebites]

The Heat would be on their way towards becoming the Knicks.

Not a smart move. They should let go and rebuild around Wade. Bibby and Miller dont turn a team in the cellar to a contender, so its not worth the cash.

No idea where the trade values of Miller and Bibby are right now, but the Kings would instantly become one of the worst teams, if not the worst team in the league.

[LPKingsFan]

True, but they have 2 years to get it done before Wade can opt out.

[Zo]

I am not a Kings fan, but I doubt it. They should be able to get expirings and a young asset for Bibby (once he's back and healthy and producing, of course...standard disclaimer), and possibly the same for Miller. This is just expirings.

Miami was the only team that could have given expiring and a young for Bibby. Obviously now, we are no longer gonna give up the young...

But would the Heat really want to pay Shaq and Miller AND Blount to handle the C position?

Probably not...

[Zo]

Nope. It's been established I'd say that Bibby is worth well more than just a dump, and quite a lot of people are finally coming around on Miller, too.

What one is worth and what the market gives are 2 different animals. For example, imo there is a larger market for BMiller than Bibby although Bibby is the better player.

From my POV, the question is would Sacramento trade Bibby and BMiller for Elton Brand, Shawn Marion, Okafor or Josh Smith? If Artest opts out, this deal would allow the Kings to go after these players... (If my salary math is incorrect, please let me know).

[Zo]

Not a smart move. They should let go and rebuild around Wade. Bibby and Miller dont turn a team in the cellar to a contender, so its not worth the cash.

Bibby, BMiller, a high 2008 first round pick, a decent free agent acquisition for the MLE, and a healthier DWade could very well turn Miami back into a contender.

[BBallFreak]

What one is worth and what the market gives are 2 different animals. For example, imo there is a larger market for BMiller than Bibby although Bibby is the better player.

From my POV, the question is would Sacramento trade Bibby and BMiller for Elton Brand, Shawn Marion, Okafor or Josh Smith? If Artest opts out, this deal would allow the Kings to go after these players... (If my salary math is incorrect, please let me know).

By the same token, we could trade Wade and Blount together for expirings and have a similar opportunity. It's still a bad deal...

[rpa]

-= original quote snipped =-


What one is worth and what the market gives are 2 different animals. For example, imo there is a larger market for BMiller than Bibby although Bibby is the better player.

From my POV, the question is would Sacramento trade Bibby and BMiller for Elton Brand, Shawn Marion, Okafor or Josh Smith? If Artest opts out, this deal would allow the Kings to go after these players... (If my salary math is incorrect, please let me know).

So you want the Kings to trade Artest (if he opts out and the Kings want to use the money occupied by his cap hold then they'd have to give up his bird rights--in essence giving him away for nothing), Bibby, & Miller for the chance to sign 1 of those 3 now?

The CHANCE to sign a high caliber free agent is a helluva lot different from actually getting a high caliber player.

Further, why would the Kings trade Miller & Bibby together for a lower value when they could trade them separately and get a better return?

[Zo]

By the same token, we could trade Wade and Blount together for expirings and have a similar opportunity. It's still a bad deal...

true, but I would not trade DWade for Brand, Marion or Okafor while, if I were in Sacramento's shoes, I would trade Bibby and BMiller for one of these guys.

No question the Kings are not getting much talent back in this deal, but they are getting the opportunity to add significant talent later on.

[BBallFreak]

true, but I would not trade DWade for Brand, Marion or Okafor while, if I were in Sacramento's shoes, I would trade Bibby and BMiller for one of these guys.

No question the Kings are not getting much talent back in this deal, but they are getting the opportunity to add significant talent later on.

And, if they don't? They're screwed. That's why prospects and/or picks have to be included in these types of deals. The talent is there. This isn't Kenny Thomas they're dumping. Both these players have value on their own. You don't trade them without getting appropriate return...

[Zo]

So you want the Kings to trade Artest (if he opts out and the Kings want to use the money occupied by his cap hold then they'd have to give up his bird rights--in essence giving him away for nothing), Bibby, & Miller for the chance to sign 1 of those 3 now?

You are right... you'd have to give up on Artest too.

The CHANCE to sign a high caliber free agent is a helluva lot different from actually getting a high caliber player.

There is no question about that that, but if you don't jump out of the boat, you'll never walk on water... Some risks are worth taking, and sometimes it's better to take a risk and fail than to stay path.

Further, why would the Kings trade Miller & Bibby together for a lower value when they could trade them separately and get a better return?

If there is another deal that can get the Kings a better return and as much cap space, of course they should do it... If you can think of one, please post it.

But realistically, I do not see any deal that accomplishes that. So it comes back to the question: is the better immediate return that the Kings would get for Bibby + BMiller + Artest better than clearing cap space for this summer and next summer's free agent class???

Personally, I always prefer getting quality over quantity back. I think the salary dump would give Sactown a better chance at quality and trades would give them a better chance at quantity.

But that's just my opinion.

[BBallFreak]

Zo,

Why think of one when two or three could make it happen?

You don't think the Magic would package some of their expiring deals and a pick to get Brad Miller?

You don't think Riley would package J-Will and Cook for Bibby?

Two deals that accomplish exactly the same thing while getting them the sweetener they need.

[rpa]

There is no question about that that, but if you don't jump out of the boat, you'll never walk on water... Some risks are worth taking, and sometimes it's better to take a risk and fail than to stay path.

I'd say this isn't an instance (at least not your scenario) simply because of the risk aspect. The chances that one of those guys joins a Kings team w/ depleted talent (they'd be losing 3 of their best 4-5 players) is VERY small. Further, consider what the Kings are left with after that. If they can't get 1 of those guys they'll have to wait til summer 2009 but then they'd have 2 more draft picks on their cap (compared to 1 more this summer), they'd still have SAR/Thomas/Moore (at least part of Moore's deal is guaranteed in year 3), and they may have an extension to Garcia kicking in that summer. So in essence there's a very high chance that they're looking at having to wait til summer 2010 (which is probably what they're going to have to do now) to have more money.

If there is another deal that can get the Kings a better return and as much cap space, of course they should do it... If you can think of one, please post it.

Trade Miller to Orlando for expirings and a protected pick. Trade Bibby to Cleveland for Gooden/Jones/1st and then flip Gooden/Jones to the Warriors for their trade exception (straight up for Gooden) and any combination of their expiring salary fillers for Jones (Pietrus, Barnes, O'Bryant, Hudson, Crosshere).

Not saying I'd do the Bibby deal but it's pretty fair. Those trades net the Kings the expiring contracts and actual value for their players.

[Zo]

And, if they don't? They're screwed. That's why prospects and/or picks have to be included in these types of deals. The talent is there. This isn't Kenny Thomas they're dumping. Both these players have value on their own. You don't trade them without getting appropriate return...

They're not screwed: It just takes them a little longer to rebuild... and picks are no guarantee either. Are they screwed if the picks do not pan out??? No they move on and try again...

Look how Philly had to give up a pick to move Kyle Korver who had value of his own...

In fact, the best analogy to this deal is not DWade and Blount for expiring, but rather Shaq for expirings: You and I would move Shaq for expirings in a heart beat. Granted Bibby and BMiller have more value than Shaq, but are there any takers?

[loserX]

Look how Philly had to give up a pick to move Kyle Korver who had value of his own...

Uh, what? The Jazz traded Giricek and a protected future pick for Kyle Korver.

If we GOT a pick, I wish someone had told us.

[BBallFreak]

They're not screwed: It just takes them a little longer to rebuild... and picks are no guarantee either. Are they screwed if the picks do not pan out??? No they move on and try again...

You're not hearing me. It's dumb for them not to try and get them.

Look how Philly had to give up a pick to move Kyle Korver who had value of his own...

Philly got a pick, they didn't give one up.

In fact, the best analogy to this deal is not DWade and Blount for expiring, but rather Shaq for expirings: You and I would move Shaq for expirings in a heart beat. Granted Bibby and BMiller have more value than Shaq, but are there any takers?

Not at all a good analogy, because their are very likely takers for Bibby and Miller, and they have enough value to land expirings, and either some young talent or a pick each.

You don't bypass picks when you're rebuilding, you acquire as many as possible. You know this Zo, you're just being obstinate...