Chicago/Portland deal

[IPC075009]

Bulls trade: Ben Gordon
Blazers trade: Martell Webster, Sergio Rodriguez, Josh McRoberts, and 1st round pick (top 8 protection)

Bulls can start a mini rebuild with three young players and a pick that could be anywhere from 13-20.

Blazers can add that perfect piece next to Brandon Roy.

Wallace
Smith
Deng
Webster
Hinrich

Pryz
LA
Jones
Gordon
Roy

[dflaschberger]

i posted something similar-I also think gordon would be perfect with Roy. How about Webster, their pick and the rights to that euro 2 man

we could always expand it with lafrenz and Wallace

[blazersmaniac8]

not a bad trade but I personally would pass. Sergio is our potential pg of the future and webster looks like the answer for us at sf, also mcroberts is best buds with oden so I doubt we part with him unless getting a killer deal and the pick I don't think is that big of deal but not with all of that.

[Spykes]

Chicago fans will likely hate this deal with a passion.

[Village Idiot]

While Ben Gordon would be ideal in Portland next to Roy the same can't be said for most teams. He's an undersized SG with limited PG skills. Hence he's somewhat of a square peg in a round hole on most teams (including Chicago). Just because he fits well in Portland doesn't mean we should overpay for him, especially when his future contract status and his expectations for an ureasonably large salary, cloud his future.

Frankly I see Martell Webster as the SF of the future in Portland. Looking at the enormous strides he's made this past year both in terms of his game and demeanor indicate he's no where close to being the player he can be. I see no reason to trade our future SF for a future PG and throw in a couple of other assets at the same time.

[waverider]

While Ben Gordon would be ideal in Portland next to Roy the same can't be said for most teams. He's an undersized SG with limited PG skills. Hence he's somewhat of a square peg in a round hole on most teams (including Chicago). Just because he fits well in Portland doesn't mean we should overpay for him, especially when his future contract status and his expectations for an ureasonably large salary, cloud his future.

Frankly I see Martell Webster as the SF of the future in Portland. Looking at the enormous strides he's made this past year both in terms of his game and demeanor indicate he's no where close to being the player he can be. I see no reason to trade our future SF for a future PG and throw in a couple of other assets at the same time.

I would agree, I like the "idea" of Gordon next to Roy but that's too steep of a price IMO and we do have Rudy coming next year as well. I'd offer Jack or Sergio/Frye and this year's top 5 protected pick. You guys could use a PF that has some offensive skills - Frye does.

[coldfish]

Chicago fans will likely hate this deal with a passion.

Not really. If we could somehow work in Wallace for Lafrentz, it would be a home run, IMO.

I'm not going to bother with the trade checker, but how about something along the lines of:
Gordon
Nocioni
Wallace

for
Webster
Rodriguez
Pick
Filler

Portland:
Gordon
Roy
Nocioni
Lamarcus
Oden

Wallace sucks, but I believe he expires in time to extend Roy and Aldridge. In the mean time, he can help with interior defense and rebounding.

Why for Chicago? Well, why not?

[TyGibson]

I would rather have Martell than Gordon RIGHT NOW.

Gordon shoots them out of a lot of games and isn;t the most unselfish teammate.

[coldfish]

-= original quote snipped =-



I would agree, I like the "idea" of Gordon next to Roy but that's too steep of a price IMO and we do have Rudy coming next year as well. I'd offer Jack or Sergio/Frye and this year's top 5 protected pick. You guys could use a PF that has some offensive skills - Frye does.

Frye is going to be a career bench guy. He is the type of player you can pick up for the MLE any season. I'm not saying he sucks, but he isn't going to net anything in trade. Chicago would be better off just keeping Gordon for that package.

[coldfish]

I would rather have Martell than Gordon RIGHT NOW.

Gordon shoots them out of a lot of games and isn;t the most unselfish teammate.

Gordon's problem is that he isn't a first option type player, but on Chicago, he has to be. Who is he going to pass to? Ben Wallace? Kirk Hinrich and his 29% 3p%? Chris Duhon and his 25% fg?

The knock on him coming out of college was that he was too unselfish and, quite frankly, you can see him drift out of games from time to time.

As a 2nd or 3rd option he would be absolutely deadly. He is top ten all time for 3 point percentage and has done so as a first option where every opposing team focuses on him. If he actually had someone create for him, I bet he could shoot close to 50% from 3 point range.

[Spykes]

While I think Frye could be helpful to the Bulls, he's far from their a perfect fit for them. While Channing has been really useful for the Blazers with his outside shot, that isn't really what the Bulls need. They need a PF who's a force in the paint, and that's definitely not Frye's game. His post moves leave a lot to be desired. I don't think Frye would give them a ton more than what they already are getting out of Joe Smith.

The only way I see Portland making a trade for Gordon is if the Bulls decide they don't want to resign him and decide to move him while they can still get something for him. Even in that remote situation, the Bulls can probably still get more value for Gordon than what the Blazers would be willing to give up.

Also, I'm not so convinced that Gordon is a great fit for Portland anymore. He seems to have Travis-Outlawitis, meaning he struggles when he starts and flourishes when he's coming off the bench. I suppose they could do what the Bulls do and just bring Gordon off the bench asap after the game starts to get him in with the starting lineup... But I don't really think that's an "ideal" situation.

Regardless, Portland's best (and probably only realistic) shot at Gordon is gonna be through FA in 09.

[Spykes]

Chicago fans will likely hate this deal with a passion.

Not really. If we could somehow work in Wallace for Lafrentz, it would be a home run, IMO.

Fair enough. I suppose I was just preparing for the inevitable treis tirade on how awful this trade is... Which I still expect is coming at some point.

Especially after this post..........

Personally, I'm all for taking on Wallace. I know a lot of Blazer fans don't agree, but I think he could be really helpful.

I'm not going to bother with the trade checker, but how about something along the lines of:
Gordon
Nocioni
Wallace

for
Webster
Rodriguez
Pick
Filler

I'd be all for this deal. That said, adding Rodriguez in is a bit of a sticking point for Portland imo. A big reason Portland is getting Rudy Fernandez to come over to the NBA next season is that Sergio is a close friend of his. Trading Sergio before Rudy comes over could complicate things. Perhaps Sergio could be replaced with Jack? Jack is currently producing better and if Gordon were brought to Portland, Jack would see his minutes plummet. It'd be best for him to be moved in any deal where Gordon is coming to Portland.

Even with Nocioni's BYC, this deal works under the checker...

LaFrentz
Miles
Webster
Jack
Portland's 2008 First Round Pick (Top 3 protected in 08, Unprotected in 09)
Cash Consideration (if need be)

for

Ben Wallace
Andres Nocioni
Ben Wallace

Why for Chicago?

Even with taking on Miles' contract, the Bulls are still shedding a ton of salary in this deal. This deal definitely locks them in for a high lotto pick come the 08 draft, but with 2 picks and FA money sooner than later, the Bulls would be in a really good position to rebuild quickly.

Why for Portland?

The deal kills any hopes of cap space in 09, but they really don't need it after this. With Gordon and Nocioni, the Blazers get more than they could hope to ever get with that cap space. It's a lot of money to take on, and I'm not just talking about Wallace and Nocioni's contracts. James Jones needs to be resigned (likely this upcoming summer), then Gordon needs an extension, then shortly after Roy, Aldridge and eventually Oden... But if there's one man in the NBA who can afford it without even blinking, it's Mr. Paul Allen.

[Friend_Of_Haley]

Eh, I'm torn on the most recent trade just posted by Spykes.

On one hand I'd be ecstatic to get rid of Wallace. Dumping Nocioni would be good too, and we get good players for them.

I'm not real excited about the prospect of dumping Gordon. Even though we are dumping our worst offensive player, we also get rid of our best or second best scorer. Webster can score, but not as well as Gordon. I really like Gordon coming off the bench. I'd much rather look for a suitable repacement for Duhon in the starting lineup and keep Gordon.

I'd rather use our draft pick as a trade chip. It looks like its going to end up being pretty high so it will have value. That does mean waiting until after the season, but I can deal with waiting. Unless its top 5 I don't think it will be of any real worth to help us immediately.

So its a great trade in the fact that we dump Wallace and Nocioni and get some value for it, but I'm not crazy about dumping some of the only offensive production we have.

Consider me on the fence for this one.

[Cliff Levingston]

LaFrentz
Miles
Webster
Jack
Portland's 2008 First Round Pick (Top 3 protected in 08, Unprotected in 09)
Cash Consideration (if need be)

for

Ben Wallace
Andres Nocioni
Ben Wallace

Cliff Levingston would pull the trigger on this deal even though we clearly lose out from a talent standpoint.

- We save a lot of money via LaFrentz's shorter and smaller deal compared to Wallace's.
- Ditto for Miles compared to Nocioni.
- The absence of Wallace and Noc should give plenty of PT to Tyrus/Noah/Gray/Thabo at every position other than the 1.
- Jack can more than replace Duhon's spot on the roster next season.
- Webster gives us good size at the 2 alongside Deng and Hinrich.
- That extra pick is nice, even though it won't be all that high.

Who knows who we'll pick in the draft, but hopefully our own pick would be high enough to grab a guy like Mayo or Rose. The stupid thing is, Cliff Levingston thinks we might actually be a better team immediately after the trade just via dumping Wallace and Nocioni.

'08-'09, not including draft picks.
1. Hinrich, Jack
2. Webster, Sefolosha, Griffin
3. Deng, Miles
4. Smith, Thomas
5. Noah, Gray, LaFrentz

[Friend_Of_Haley]

Cliff I agree with a lot of things you said, but I can't help but think we could hold onto Gordon and make other moves to help improve us.

Neither pick is going to land us a Derrick Rose type player (most likely). Combining the picks probably won't either. I guess it depends on if you can move LaFrentz and the picks for a real superstar player.

You've convinced me more about this deal for Chicago, but I'm still not sure. Maybe I've overvaluing Gordon, but I'd rather find him a complimentary big SG to pair him with rather than replacing him with a big SG who doesn't score as well as him.

[coldfish]

I'd be all for this deal. That said, adding Rodriguez in is a bit of a sticking point for Portland imo. A big reason Portland is getting Rudy Fernandez to come over to the NBA next season is that Sergio is a close friend of his. Trading Sergio before Rudy comes over could complicate things. Perhaps Sergio could be replaced with Jack? Jack is currently producing better and if Gordon were brought to Portland, Jack would see his minutes plummet. It'd be best for him to be moved in any deal where Gordon is coming to Portland.

Even with Nocioni's BYC, this deal works under the checker...

LaFrentz
Miles
Webster
Jack
Portland's 2008 First Round Pick (Top 3 protected in 08, Unprotected in 09)
Cash Consideration (if need be)

for

Ben Wallace
Andres Nocioni
Ben Wallace

Why for Chicago?

Even with taking on Miles' contract, the Bulls are still shedding a ton of salary in this deal. This deal definitely locks them in for a high lotto pick come the 08 draft, but with 2 picks and FA money sooner than later, the Bulls would be in a really good position to rebuild quickly.

Why for Portland?

The deal kills any hopes of cap space in 09, but they really don't need it after this. With Gordon and Nocioni, the Blazers get more than they could hope to ever get with that cap space. It's a lot of money to take on, and I'm not just talking about Wallace and Nocioni's contracts. James Jones needs to be resigned (likely this upcoming summer), then Gordon needs an extension, then shortly after Roy, Aldridge and eventually Oden... But if there's one man in the NBA who can afford it without even blinking, it's Mr. Paul Allen.

After this season, Wallace is owed $27M over two years. Miles + Lafrentz make $30M over that same time period. Essentially, the Bulls would get no benefit of dumping Wallace. If anything, its a penalty because at least Wallace plays. Miles and Lafrentz would never contribute.

I don't even think that deal is close and after looking at Portland's contract situation, I'm not sure there is any reasonable filler that would work.

As you point out, salary cap space is badly overrated. Chicago got Wallace out of its last effort and is now having to give up assets to get rid of him.

That pick is going to be near worthless after Portland gets those players.

In summary, Chicago would be better served to look elsewhere if they are going to blow up the team. Oh well, I tried.

[Friend_Of_Haley]

After this season, Wallace is owed $27M over two years. Miles + Lafrentz make $30M over that same time period. Essentially, the Bulls would get no benefit of dumping Wallace. If anything, its a penalty because at least Wallace plays. Miles and Lafrentz would never contribute.

True those players are owed about the same amount, but we'd be dumping about 5M of it for that second season. Whether it is Raef LaFrentz next year or Wallace the next, the only value they hold is to use as an expiring contract. I think its worth something to be able to do that a year early. At the same time, it may be worth it to do it the following year because less of our players will have trade restrictions. On the other hand we'll probably have a pretty high pick, which combined with an expiring can get a good player. So theres positives and negatives to having that expiring for 2008 or 2009.

Beyond that, you've totally ignored we will be saving a ton of long term money by geting rid of Nocioni. I know me and Cliff are more pro trade Nocioni than most Bulls fans, but he already hurts us a lot with his overzealous help defense and shoot first mentality. As he gets older, he isn't going to get more valuable, even if his salary decreases.

As far as Wallace contributing, I think most Bulls fans would agree that his "contributions" right now are more detrimental than helpful.

All that being said, I'm still not sure one way or the other, but I don't agree with where you are coming from to disagree with the deal.

[coldfish]

I don't think that Nocioni's value around the league is negative. He is on a declining contract and is productive. His issues on Chicago are due to Deng and the fact that the coaches play him at power forward against much bigger players.

Quite frankly, I think Nocioni could fetch an expiring deal by himself, plus a late pick or something. He isn't a dump situation and neither is Gordon. Nocioni is just a bad fit with the current personnel, but that doesn't make him a bad fit with all personnel (like say . . . Ben Wallace).

[Friend_Of_Haley]

Okay, based on what you've told me coldfish, what do you think of this deal?

Chicago:
Nocioni 8.5M(4.25M outgoing)
Gordon 4.881M
Duhon 3.248M
Griffin 1.593M
Total 13.972M outgoing, must take back no more than 17.465M
for
LaFrentz 12.44M
Jack 1.217M
Webster 2.974
First Rounder with same protections
Total 16.631 Incoming

Portland:
LaFrentz 12.44M
Jack 1.217M
Webster 2.974
First Rounder with same protections
Total 16.631 Outgoing. Incoming salary must be between 13.204 and 21.788M
for
Nocioni 8.5M
Gordon 4.881M
Duhon 3.248M
Griffin 1.593M
Total 18.22 incoming

Basically taking out Wallace and Miles from the deal. I actually don't think I like it, just curious what you think.

Edit-Cliff is a lot smarter than me. I'm not sure why I opted to take out Wallace from the deal and not Nocioni.
Edit II- I just realized this is prettty much based on your original deal where its Wallace, Nocioni, Gordon for Webster, LaFrentz, fillers. That looks best to me. Just a matter of making sure it works.
Edit III- Theres no way that deal is anywhere close to working without Miles, so we're back to using Cliff's idea as the best scenario.

[Cliff Levingston]

I don't think that Nocioni's value around the league is negative. He is on a declining contract and is productive. His issues on Chicago are due to Deng and the fact that the coaches play him at power forward against much bigger players.

Quite frankly, I think Nocioni could fetch an expiring deal by himself, plus a late pick or something. He isn't a dump situation and neither is Gordon. Nocioni is just a bad fit with the current personnel, but that doesn't make him a bad fit with all personnel (like say . . . Ben Wallace).

You're right coldfish. Nocioni and Miles could be taken out of the deal altogether. Cliff Levingston doesn't see why we'd have to take Miles back when we're giving up the best player in the deal (Gordon) and probably the second best at the moment (Nocioni).

Wallace + Gordon for LaFrentz + Jack + Webster + the pick works in the checker, and would be a better deal for us. We save money off Wallace's deal next year as well as the complete amount of Wallace's last year. We grab a couple guys still on rookie contracts opposed to having to worry about paying Gordon and grab that extra low first to perhaps get another asset (would take a high potential guy or a foreign guy who might not come over for a couple years).

'08-'09, without the picks included
1. Hinrich, Jack
2. Webster, Sefolosha, Griffin
3. Deng, Nocioni
4. Smith, Thomas
5. Noah, Gray, LaFrentz

Not bad. What would Portland fans think about Hinrich instead of Gordon? ICLO, that'd be better for us.