Portland/Chicago

[gobullschi]

Chicago Trades:
Ben Gordon, Ben Wallace, and Andres Nocioni

Chicago Receives:
Raef Lafrenz, Darius Miles, Sergio Rodriguez, Channing Frye, Martell Webster, and 2008 1st Round Draft Pick (top 3 protected)

PG: Kirk Hinrich/Chris Duhon/Sergio Rodriguez
SG: Martell Webster/Thabo Sefolosha
SF: Luol Deng/Darius Miles/Viktor Kyrapa
PF: Tyrus Thomas/Channing Frye
C: Joe Smith/Joakim Noah/Raef Lafrentz/Aaron Gray

Portland Trades:
Raef Lafrenz, Darius Miles, Sergio Rodriguez, Channing Frye, Martell Webster, and 2008 1st Round Draft Pick (top 8 protected)

Portland Receives:
Ben Gordon, Ben Wallace, and Andres Nocioni

PG: Ben Gordon/Steve Blake/Taureen Green
SG: Brandon Roy/Jarret Jack
SF: Andres Nocioni/James Jones
PF: LaMarcus Aldridge/Travis Outlaw/Josh McRoberts
C: Ben Wallace/Greg Oden/Joel Prizbilla

WHY CHICAGO? Chicago fixes there small backcourt problem by sending Gordon to Portland and receiving Martell Webster. At 6'7 a small guard will no longer be a problem and Webster is still young and has potential. Chicago also gets rid of Ben Wallace's contract and switch it with Raef Lafrentz's bad contract except his expires one year earlier. Channing Frye isnt anything special but a solid player who can play some PF/C. Sergio Rodriguez will eventually replace Duhon once he expires and bulls also add an additional first round draft pick in a deep draft.

WHY PORTLAND? Portland adds the perfect guard to pair with Brandon Roy. A shoot first PG is exactly what portland needs to pair with Roy and Gordon fits the bill perfectly. Andres Nocioni finally gives them a solid SF and is a perfect hustle player for Portlands young team. Ben Wallace adds some defensive toughness and is a solid veteran to teach some of the young bigs a few tricks (Oden, Aldridge, and McRoberts). Ben Wallace's contract also ends when Brandon Roys does which is perfect.

[Blazer77]

The cap conscious Blazers aren't looking to acquire Wallace's contract and I don't think everyone else loves Gordon as much as Bulls Fans do.

Martell is a starter at 21 years old and was the 6th pick. Sergio is probably movable, but Frye is a Pritchard Favorite (and the 8th pick)

I guess if you take it from the "we have to get rid of Miles and LaFrentz" angle its a decent offer.

It just doesn't pop out as a great deal for the Blazers. I think the fear here is that all 3 of the prospects in Sergio, Frye and Martell have tremendous upside.

Giving up on those three (who are all crucial to team chemistry) for a year of Ben Wallace on the decline (now we have 3 defensive Cs?) just isn't enough. And when I say a year of Ben Wallace, I mean that I feel that's what he's got left in the tank.

[candy for lunch]

No way in hell I want Wallace on our team. Pass.

[gobullschi]

[quote="Blazer77"]The cap conscious Blazers aren't looking to acquire Wallace's contract and I don't think everyone else loves Gordon as much as Bulls Fans do.

Martell is a starter at 21 years old and was the 6th pick. Sergio is probably movable, but Frye is a Pritchard Favorite (and the 8th pick)

I guess if you take it from the "we have to get rid of Miles and LaFrentz" angle its a decent offer.

It just doesn't pop out as a great deal for the Blazers. I think the fear here is that all 3 of the prospects in Sergio, Frye and Martell have tremendous upside.

Giving up on those three (who are all crucial to team chemistry) for a year of Ben Wallace on the decline (now we have 3 defensive Cs?) just isn't enough. And when I say a year of Ben Wallace, I mean that I feel that's what he's got left in the tank.[/quote]

I understand that the Blazers are being very cap causious, however, taking on Ben Wallace's contract doesnt really have that much of a negative effect because theyre giving up Raef Lafrentz and Darius Miles (2 bad contracts). Ben Gordon was a previous 6th man of the year, and a 20ppg scorer. He's not quite a #1 scoring option but if he was put in the #2 scoring option he could really flourish. Gordon is only 25 and is a very clutch player. While Martell Webster hasnt even cracked over 12 points a game as a season average while gordon has cracked over 21ppg. Then Blazers also get there SF with Andres Nocioni.

So if the deal breaker is giving up Channing Frye, what if you switched out Channing Frye for Travis Outlaw? Does that make the trade more favorable or no?

PG: Ben Gordon/Steve Blake
SG: Brandon Roy/Rudy Fernandez/Jarret Jack
SF: Andres Nocioni/James Jones
PF: LaMarcus Aldridge/Channing Frye/Josh McRoberts
C: Ben Wallace/Greg Oden/Joel Prizbilla

that way your 3 defensive centers (oden, wallace, prizbilla) all can be paired with 3 scoring powerforwards (Aldridge, Frye, McRoberts)

*Plus I would assume that after the trade it would make the Blazers an immediatly better team making the draft pick a low pick anyways.

After the trade you pair a solid group of veterans to a very young team.

[Billy]

I understand that the Blazers are being very cap causious, however, taking on Ben Wallace's contract doesnt really have that much of a negative effect because theyre giving up Raef Lafrentz and Darius Miles (2 bad contracts). Ben Gordon was a previous 6th man of the year, and a 20ppg scorer. He's not quite a #1 scoring option but if he was put in the #2 scoring option he could really flourish. Gordon is only 25 and is a very clutch player. While Martell Webster hasnt even cracked over 12 points a game as a season average while gordon has cracked over 21ppg. Then Blazers also get there SF with Andres Nocioni.

So if the deal breaker is giving up Channing Frye, what if you switched out Channing Frye for Travis Outlaw? Does that make the trade more favorable or no?

PG: Ben Gordon/Steve Blake
SG: Brandon Roy/Rudy Fernandez/Jarret Jack
SF: Andres Nocioni/James Jones
PF: LaMarcus Aldridge/Channing Frye/Josh McRoberts
C: Ben Wallace/Greg Oden/Joel Prizbilla

that way your 3 defensive centers (oden, wallace, prizbilla) all can be paired with 3 scoring powerforwards (Aldridge, Frye, McRoberts)

*Plus I would assume that after the trade it would make the Blazers an immediatly better team making the draft pick a low pick anyways.

After the trade you pair a solid group of veterans to a very young team.

The difference between two bad contracts vs one really isn't comparable for the Blazers. Taking on Ben Wallace takes up an additional 5 million in cap space from Portland's cap space in 2009 (difference between Darius' deal and Wallaces).

Travis isn't going anywhere. That man has been as clutch as they come for the Blazers. He's only 23 and there is no reason to think he won't continue to get better.

You're right that Webster hasn't been as prolific of a scorer as Gordon. Webster does do a lot of little things that you can't pick off the stat sheet. He's a great rebounder in traffic, blocks shots well, and plays great man to man and team defense.

I'm not trying to be homer here and overrate the Blazer players. I like Ben Gordon a lot. But if I'm the Blazers I don't want to sacrifice the FA route AND guys like Webster or Outlaw or Frye to get him. It's not a knock on Gordon, simply a matter of valuing the sum of the parts over an individual part.

[Wizenheimer]

probably the worst aspect to this trade is it's far too big. Yes, portland dumps lafrentz and miles but they also trade 3 rotation players, including a starter. And considering how well portland is playing and the chemistry they have, it's bad timing as well for a trade of this magnitude.

As far as portland's cap-space option in 2009, trading for Gordon would take that off the table, so the cap-space ramifications of adding Wallace and Nocioni aren't that significant. However, adding Wallace, when Portland will have both Oden and Pryzbilla doesn't make sense. he's necessary filler because of the size of the trade, but that argues against portland making the trade rather then for it.

Then there's the issue of Nocioni. Frankly, when comparig Webster and Nocioni, IMO, Webster is the better talent, at least he fits better with Portland, and he's 7 years younger.

So if you simply say that lafrentz/miles for wallace is one component of the trade and is a wash (and that's how the blazers would view it), then that leaves the trade as basically:

webster, frye, rodriguez, 2008 1st round pick, & loss of a cap-space option

for

Gordon & Nocioni

and then the major problem with that other then it's way too much for portland to give up, is that Gordon's contract status greatly reduces his trade value and this trade doesn't account for it.

Portland would be making this large roster change, reworking their salary base, while taking a huge risk that the primary asset they received...gordon...could refuse to extend his contract with them. Portland could give up all that's listed for a 1+ year rental of Gordon and Nocioni.

no thanks

[gobullschi]

just curious if any of these versions of the trade make it seem better

Version 1.
Portland Trades:
Martell Webster, Channing Frye, Sergio Rodriguez, Darius Miles, Raef Lafrentz, Joel Prizbilla, and a 2008 1st Round Pick

Portland Receives:
Ben Gordon, Andres Nocioni, Ben Wallace, Joe Smith, and 2009 1st Round Pick (lottery protected)

PG: Ben Gordon/Steve Blake/Jarret Jack
SG: Brandon Roy/James Jones
SF: Andres Nocioni/Travis Outlaw
PF: LaMarcus Aldridge/Josh McRoberts
C: Ben Wallace/Greg Oden/Joe Smith

*This version frees up more capspace by getting exchanging Joe Smith and Prizbilla so u get an expiring before the 2009 free agent pool. Also added a future 1st Rounder that may entice the deal since u lose out on 3 young players.

OR
version #2

Portland Trades:
Martell Webster, Sergio Rodriguez, Channing Frye, and 2008 1st Round Pick
Portland Receives:
Ben Gordon, Andres Nocioni, and 2009 1st Round Draft Pick

[candy for lunch]

We've got a good thing going right now, I don't see any reason to ruin it.

[DeezXXnutZ]

Didn't Spykes come up with this trade like yesterday..Anyways lkike I've said in past posts Wallace has a horrible contract and the Blazers aren't going to extend ourselves this much for Gordon (Even though we'd love to have him)...If you can come up with a way to keep Wallace out of the deal Blazers fans will be all ears...

[Wizenheimer]

just curious if any of these versions of the trade make it seem better

Version 1.
Portland Trades:
Martell Webster, Channing Frye, Sergio Rodriguez, Darius Miles, Raef Lafrentz, Joel Prizbilla, and a 2008 1st Round Pick

Portland Receives:
Ben Gordon, Andres Nocioni, Ben Wallace, Joe Smith, and 2009 1st Round Pick (lottery protected)

PG: Ben Gordon/Steve Blake/Jarret Jack
SG: Brandon Roy/James Jones
SF: Andres Nocioni/Travis Outlaw
PF: LaMarcus Aldridge/Josh McRoberts
C: Ben Wallace/Greg Oden/Joe Smith

*This version frees up more capspace by getting exchanging Joe Smith and Prizbilla so u get an expiring before the 2009 free agent pool. Also added a future 1st Rounder that may entice the deal since u lose out on 3 young players.

OR
version #2

Portland Trades:
Martell Webster, Sergio Rodriguez, Channing Frye, and 2008 1st Round Pick
Portland Receives:
Ben Gordon, Andres Nocioni, and 2009 1st Round Draft Pick

IMO, neither trade gets there.

Look, I understand the Bulls perspective on Gordon, it's valid.

But the issue I outlined earlier is the drawback...specifically, that Gordon's
contract status leaves portland assuming a lot of risk that he won't re-sign with portland. In that event, trading significant assets for him would be a monumental mistake.

Without that assurance (and by rules, portland couldn't negotiate with Gordon till this summer), Chicago simply won't convince Portland to part with much in a trade for Gordon during the season. And then, the fact that aquiring Gordan and re-signing him to a long contract would mean Portland's cap space option was dead, that would have to mean that Gordon was seen as the 'final piece' for the Blazers. I'm not sure he's that good. maybe. But he is a 6'2 SG after all, and ironically, the Blazers may be one of only a few teams that may view Gordon real favorably because of how he theoretically would mesh with brandon roy.

If Chicago is going to move Gordon for much value, I think it would have to be in a sign & trade scenario this coming off-season. But the thing is, by the off-season, the Bulls may have lost almost all their leverage over gordon. His QO is almost 6.5 million and it doesn't seem likely that Paxon will offer him more then 3-4 million more then that to start. And the following summer, several teams may have substantial cap-space. Gordon may not be willing to cooperate in a sign & trade.

Chicago may have to 'start over' to a degree. If so, the Nocioni contract was a bit of a mistake. It's pretty big considering his production. So Chicago might have to start thinking about cap space in the next couple of years.

with that in mind a couter-proposal would be lafrentz (only 1.5 years left on his contract), jarret jack, the rights to kaponen, and the 2009 1st round pick for gordon, nocioni, and khryapa.

[gobullschi]

[quote="Wizenheimer"][quote="gobullschi"]just curious if any of these versions of the trade make it seem better

Version 1.
Portland Trades:
Martell Webster, Channing Frye, Sergio Rodriguez, Darius Miles, Raef Lafrentz, Joel Prizbilla, and a 2008 1st Round Pick

Portland Receives:
Ben Gordon, Andres Nocioni, Ben Wallace, Joe Smith, and 2009 1st Round Pick (lottery protected)

PG: Ben Gordon/Steve Blake/Jarret Jack
SG: Brandon Roy/James Jones
SF: Andres Nocioni/Travis Outlaw
PF: LaMarcus Aldridge/Josh McRoberts
C: Ben Wallace/Greg Oden/Joe Smith

*This version frees up more capspace by getting exchanging Joe Smith and Prizbilla so u get an expiring before the 2009 free agent pool. Also added a future 1st Rounder that may entice the deal since u lose out on 3 young players.

OR
version #2

Portland Trades:
Martell Webster, Sergio Rodriguez, Channing Frye, and 2008 1st Round Pick
Portland Receives:
Ben Gordon, Andres Nocioni, and 2009 1st Round Draft Pick[/quote]

IMO, neither trade gets there.

Look, I understand the Bulls perspective on Gordon, it's valid.

But the issue I outlined earlier is the drawback...specifically, that Gordon's
contract status leaves portland assuming a lot of risk that he won't re-sign with portland. In that event, trading significant assets for him would be a monumental mistake.

Without that assurance (and by rules, portland couldn't negotiate with Gordon till this summer), Chicago simply won't convince Portland to part with much in a trade for Gordon during the season. And then, the fact that aquiring Gordan and re-signing him to a long contract would mean Portland's cap space option was dead, that would have to mean that Gordon was seen as the 'final piece' for the Blazers. I'm not sure he's that good. maybe. But he is a 6'2 SG after all, and ironically, the Blazers may be one of only a few teams that may view Gordon real favorably because of how he theoretically would mesh with brandon roy.

If Chicago is going to move Gordon for much value, I think it would have to be in a sign & trade scenario this coming off-season. But the thing is, by the off-season, the Bulls may have lost almost all their leverage over gordon. His QO is almost 6.5 million and it doesn't seem likely that Paxon will offer him more then 3-4 million more then that to start. And the following summer, several teams may have substantial cap-space. Gordon may not be willing to cooperate in a sign & trade.

Chicago may have to 'start over' to a degree. If so, the Nocioni contract was a bit of a mistake. It's pretty big considering his production. So Chicago might have to start thinking about cap space in the next couple of years.

with that in mind a couter-proposal would be lafrentz (only 1.5 years left on his contract), jarret jack, the rights to kaponen, and the 2009 1st round pick for gordon, nocioni, and khryapa.[/quote]

well yikes! a bad contract and not even one good player for 2 solid players...YUCK!!! if thats how much you value your teams players a trade would definatly NEVER work...sorry that offer is just plain insulting

[Wizenheimer]

-= original quote snipped =-



well yikes! a bad contract and not even one good player for 2 solid players...YUCK!!! if thats how much you value your teams players a trade would definatly NEVER work...sorry that offer is just plain insulting

it's certainly not the kind of return you were expecting judging by your proposals, but frankly, what you were expecting wasn't realistic. At least not from portland.

I will point out that judging by a couple of recent threads from Bulls fans, what I offered is close to what they said would be acceptable, maybe not enough but close...see the threads:

http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=750616

http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=750681

Again...portland doesn't need or want Wallace or Nocioni. The probably don't need Gordon either but at least he would fit into the rotation well theoretically.

But they won't be giving up a lot to get him, especially considering there is an increasing chance he may be available as an unrestricted free agent in 2009. Which is coincidentally at the same time Portland will have some cap-space.

[hermes]

portland doesn't do that deal
they don't want to lose the cap space