CHI-MIN

rambo_ortega · Post #1 » by **rambo_ortega** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 2:42 am

Successful Trade Scenario
Congratulations on a successful trade.

Trade ID #4414654

Chicago Trade Breakdown
Change in Team Outlook: +5.0 ppg, -0.3 rpg, and -0.4 apg.

Incoming Players
Craig Smith
6-7 PF from Boston College
10.7 ppg, 4.9 rpg, 0.4 apg in 22.0 minutes
Gerald Green
6-8 SF / SG from Gulf Shores Academy (HS)
4.8 ppg, 2.0 rpg, 1.2 apg in 11.9 minutes
Outgoing Players
Aaron Gray
7-1 C from Pittsburgh
4.7 ppg, 2.7 rpg, 0.8 apg in 10.7 minutes
Tyrus Thomas
6-8 PF from LSU
5.8 ppg, 4.5 rpg, 1.2 apg in 16.6 minutes

this will give them a shotblocking upfront and provide athleticism in the paint. This will make them a better team imo. craig is good but doesn't compliment their cornerstone. If they kep this core and mature they will turn out to be a team similar to the phoenix suns. gray would give them a legit center which they really lack.

al/gray/richard
thomas/walker
gomes/brewer
mccants/brewer/jaric
foye/telfair

Minnesota Trade Breakdown
Change in Team Outlook: -5.0 ppg, +0.3 rpg, and +0.4 apg.

Incoming Players
Aaron Gray
7-1 C from Pittsburgh
4.7 ppg, 2.7 rpg, 0.8 apg in 10.7 minutes
Tyrus Thomas
6-8 PF from LSU
5.8 ppg, 4.5 rpg, 1.2 apg in 16.6 minutes
Outgoing Players
Craig Smith
6-7 PF from Boston College
10.7 ppg, 4.9 rpg, 0.4 apg in 22.0 minutes
Gerald Green
6-8 SF / SG from Gulf Shores Academy (HS)
4.8 ppg, 2.0 rpg, 1.2 apg in 11.9 minutes

they unload their young stud but get two great potentials that would fit their team. craig will give them legit scoring down low which they lack. they also get a very athletic 2 guard who can gain confidence in this team. ben and craig can be the smallest but meanest frontcourt duo in the NBA.

wallace/noah
jsmith/craigsmith
deng/nocioni
green/gordon/thabo
hinrich/duhon/thabo

Post #2 » by **coldfish** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 2:49 am

No, not really, not even close. If the Bulls wanted a big post scorer, they would play Gray 20 minutes per game. Not that he is great or anything, but he doesn't suck and he is freakin huge.

I haven't watched Minnesota yet this year. What happened to Gerald Green?

rambo_ortega · Post #3 » by **rambo_ortega** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 2:59 am

^craig is a deserving starter in this league and plays hard. plus he already proved that he can play against bigger guys.

Post #4 » by **coldfish** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 3:07 am

rambo_ortega wrote:^craig is a deserving starter in this league and plays hard. plus he already proved that he can play against bigger guys.

Like I said, I haven't seen Minnesota this year, which is why I didn't comment on Smith explicitly. Chicago and its fans are pretty high on both Tyrus and Gray. They just don't play much.

Beyond that, I hated Green as a celtic and doubt that things have changed.

Given that the Bulls already have too many short players, Smith would have to be *really* good to make this trade interesting.

Cliff Levingston · Post #5 » by **Cliff Levingston** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 3:24 am

The Bulls pass on this with the quickness. The last thing we need to trade for is more severely undersized (Smith) or bad (Green) players.

shrink · Post #6 » by **shrink** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 3:29 am

The story on Green is that he gets random minutes, and its not helping the kid much. I like that I hear he has a tremendous work ethic in practice, and combine that with a 48-inch vertical leap (which is pretty amazing when you think about it) -- and I think he has the makings for a successful NBA player. However, when he gets in games, he's given a very short leash, and gets down on himself quickly. He says the right things about earning his playing time, but MIN didn't extend him.

If he comes around in the second half (and I believe that could happen), MIN might try to re-sign him, but being so close to the lux, the Wolves started making hard decision on player cuts last summer.

As for the trade, Tyrus Thomas is terrific, and Aaron Gray has been a welcome surprise, with the decline of Ben Wallace. I agree with rambo_ortega that Craig Smith would be a nice fit as a low-post scorer, but I don't think MIN has enough tradable assets to make an offer at the Tyrus Thomas level. I'd love to get my hands on either TT or Noah, but I think that may be a pipe dream, but if you have any ideas ...?

Post #7 » by **revprodeji** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 4:42 am

The chicago posters here are making it clear that they have not seen enough of Smith to make a comment worth reading. Personally I do not like the trade for the wolves either.

Chicago fans will hold out any trade ideas thinking if you pile some C+/B talent together it can get them an A. Good luck. See you in the lottery. We will save you a seat next to us.

deeney0 · Post #8 » by **deeney0** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 6:56 pm

I'm not sure how I like it for the Wolves, but it's bad for Chicago. Craig Smith would be a great fit their, but this is far too pricey for him. However, if Chicago gets a mid-late lotto pick and lets Gordon go, maybe Smith+McCants for that 1st and a little more?

HotSpurs21 · Post #9 » by **HotSpurs21** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 7:38 pm

Aaron Gray by no means is a throw-in. I doubt Chicago would give up both Gray and Thomas to get Smith

Post #10 » by **coldfish** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 7:46 pm

revprodeji wrote:The chicago posters here are making it clear that they have not seen enough of Smith to make a comment worth reading. Personally I do not like the trade for the wolves either.

Chicago fans will hold out any trade ideas thinking if you pile some C+/B talent together it can get them an A. Good luck. See you in the lottery. We will save you a seat next to us.

LOL. Well, Boston was able to do it, why can't we?

Post #11 » by **revprodeji** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 7:55 pm

1-You do not have an expiring contract the size of Theo
2-you do not have other expirings that could potential be legit players like Gomes/Bassy/Green
3-You do not have the other teams future draft choice (bos has ours that we took back)
4-you do not have 2 vet all-stars (*allen/pierce) to play with the "A" player.
5-there is nobody on your roster (including Deng) that can have a team built around them like Al. (I am sure this will be spammed, but it has been discussed so much it is sick)

The Gasol deals have been talked about for 2 years or so now. They simply will not get done.

Post #12 » by **coldfish** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 8:24 pm

revprodeji wrote:1-You do not have an expiring contract the size of Theo

PJ Brown, sign and trade.

2-you do not have other expirings that could potential be legit players like Gomes/Bassy/Green

You have to be kidding.

3-You do not have the other teams future draft choice (bos has ours that we took back)

Which had more protection on it than an Abrams tank.

4-you do not have 2 vet all-stars (*allen/pierce) to play with the "A" player.

Other than just attacking the Bulls, what does that have to do with anything?

5-there is nobody on your roster (including Deng) that can have a team built around them like Al. (I am sure this will be spammed, but it has been discussed so much it is sick)

Well, I would normally hold back on attacking another team . . . and I still will because I like shrink.

The Gasol deals have been talked about for 2 years or so now. They simply will not get done.

Probably because memphis wants about 2 times as much as Minnesota got for Garnett for a lesser player. If Memphis gets realistic about Gasol's trade value and is interested in moving him, it certainly may.

hermes · Post #13 » by **hermes** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 8:27 pm

i think the wolves are too high on craig to trade him

shrink · Post #14 » by **shrink** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 8:38 pm

hermes wrote:i think the wolves are too high on craig to trade him

I think that's a legitimate concern. For people on other teams, remember how attached your fanbase got when your last second-rounder turned out to have some game? Expectations start low, but he just keeps exceeding them. He is several people's favorite Wolf.

That said, I think people are beginning to realize that Minnesota is not the place for Craig Smith. It has nothing to do with Smith, and everything to do with Al Jefferson. Al's played some center for us out of necessity, but he's best at as a PF. When MIN's played Smith and Al together, it just hasn't worked.

For me, its would be hard to see Craig go, but just like KG, I think it would be the right thing to do for the player. Also, if the Wolves can use Smith to help bring in a player that compliments their other players, biting the bullet to trade Smith would be in the best interest of the team as well.

Post #15 » by **revprodeji** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 8:39 pm

If these are the only offers we get (late first round picks---likely back ups) why dont we just keep craig if he is cool playing back-up?

GopherIt! · Post #16 » by **GopherIt!** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 9:44 am

Hello guys,

I don't think Noah for Craig Smith (plus a cap equalizer) is such a pipe dream, especially given the Bulls situation and the ongoings with Noah. On the court, I think it is a very balanced offer. Your talking about one guy who is excellent offensively but a poor defender and another player who should develop into a legit defender but has minimal upside offensively.

Perhaps some posters will see Smith was a second round pick and stop right there without doing any research or ever watching Smith play. But if the 2006 draft were redone today Smith would be drafted much higher, probably in the 12-16 range. Thabo Sefolosha, Rajon Rondo and Paul Millsap would be the only players that could possibly keep him from edging into most critics top ten.

John Paxson certainly knows how important chemistry is to his team's success. It is a troubling situation that Noah's teammates had to call a meeting and then unanimously agree to suspend him. One cannot deny that he has put himself into a precarious position with his teammates. Outside of RealGM there are many Bulls fans who really do not like this guy. Maybe these things should be an alarm to Wolves fans, I don't know.

Somebody mentioned Aaron Gray. The difference between Smith and Gray is that Gray is unlikely to ever become an NBA starter. If not resigned, Smith will get RFA offers when the season is over and start somewhere next season. He is good enough to be possibly a fourth or perhaps more likely a fifth option for a good team, especially one with a quality defensive center. There is good reason for his popularity with Wolves fans. He is my favorite player on the team but with Al Jefferson ahead of him I believe something like this makes sense.

Plus, "Cookie Monster traded for Oscar the Grouch" makes a great headline.

Gopher

rambo_ortega · Post #17 » by **rambo_ortega** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 11:59 am

i think this is a good trade to establish a good young core

Post #18 » by **coldfish** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 12:02 pm

Is it now time to have a condescending

The *minnesota* posters here are making it clear that they have not seen enough of *the Bulls* to make a comment worth reading.

comment?

I don't think Noah for Craig Smith (plus a cap equalizer) is such a pipe dream, especially given the Bulls situation and the ongoings with Noah. On the court, I think it is a very balanced offer. Your talking about one guy who is excellent offensively but a poor defender and another player who should develop into a legit defender but has minimal upside offensively.

Perhaps some posters will see Smith was a second round pick and stop right there without doing any research or ever watching Smith play.

Noah has been very good for Chicago. He just doesn't play because Joe Smith has also been good and Ben Wallace is getting a ton of entitlement minutes. By all rights, Noah should be starting right now because he is much better than Wallace on both ends of the court. I doubt one single Bulls poster would dispute that.

Beyond that, Noah's personality is not only a good fit for the Bulls, he is exactly what Chicago needs. The Bulls have no leaders and too many quiet guys. Noah is anything but that. No one seems to remember that Noah's fight with Wallace resulted in a blowout win (albeit against the Heat).

But if the 2006 draft were redone today Smith would be drafted much higher, probably in the 12-16 range.

Us Bulls fans would probably say that if the 2007 draft was re-done in a year or so with Noah getting playing time, Noah would go around #5 and Gray would go around #20.

Right now, Noah is leading all rookies in PER and has a great +/-.

Look who is at the top of this list:
http://www.82games.com/0708/0708CHI.HTM

compared to:
http://www.82games.com/0708/0708MIN.HTM

There are stats to back up our positions as Bulls fans.

wolves_fan_82au · Post #19 » by **wolves_fan_82au** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 12:44 pm

coldfish wrote:Is it now time to have a condescending

The *minnesota* posters here are making it clear that they have not seen enough of *the Bulls* to make a comment worth reading.

comment?
I don't think Noah for Craig Smith (plus a cap equalizer) is such a pipe dream, especially given the Bulls situation and the ongoings with Noah. On the court, I think it is a very balanced offer. Your talking about one guy who is excellent offensively but a poor defender and another player who should develop into a legit defender but has minimal upside offensively.

Perhaps some posters will see Smith was a second round pick and stop right there without doing any research or ever watching Smith play.

Noah has been very good for Chicago. He just doesn't play because Joe Smith has also been good and Ben Wallace is getting a ton of entitlement minutes. By all rights, Noah should be starting right now because he is much better than Wallace on both ends of the court. I doubt one single Bulls poster would dispute that.

Beyond that, Noah's personality is not only a good fit for the Bulls, he is exactly what Chicago needs. The Bulls have no leaders and too many quiet guys. Noah is anything but that. No one seems to remember that Noah's fight with Wallace resulted in a blowout win (albeit against the Heat).
But if the 2006 draft were redone today Smith would be drafted much higher, probably in the 12-16 range.

Us Bulls fans would probably say that if the 2007 draft was re-done in a year or so with Noah getting playing time, Noah would go around #5 and Gray would go around #20.

Right now, Noah is leading all rookies in PER and has a great +/-.

Look who is at the top of this list:
http://www.82games.com/0708/0708CHI.HTM

compared to:
http://www.82games.com/0708/0708MIN.HTM

There are stats to back up our positions as Bulls fans.

Noah 20% too smith 45% of mins payed :nonono:

why not instead go back to smith rookie year at this stage and compare them

btw i see mccants is on top of the wolves ratings does that mean hes better than jefferson

shrink · Post #20 » by **shrink** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 2:44 pm

wolves_fan_82au wrote: why not instead go back to smith rookie year at this stage and compare them

btw i see mccants is on top of the wolves ratings does that mean hes better than jefferson :P

Last year, Craig Smith was below where Noah now, but Bracey Wright, with a +8.8 Roland Rating, is far better than Noah.

I don't put a lot of stock in Roland Rating.

That said, I still think Noah > Smith.

One question coldfish. I was surprised to hear you endorsed Noah's attitude when the Bulls team suspended him a game for it. I certainly don't know all the details, but it seemed to me a rookie used to winning games in college shouldn't be mouthy to nba vets, and they reacted that way. I like the passion, but it made me wonder about whether he knows his place as part of a team, and the player's strong reaction seems to indicate hey didn't appreciate it.