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This might have some holes but I'm wondering if its close or not. For NJ its not as good as the Dallas deal, and all MN gains is long term cap relief (although they'd take it in the shorts next year). I'm guessing its ok for Cleveland though.

CAVS OUT
Newble, Snow, Marshall, Gooden, Gibson OR Brown (NJ choice), 2008 and 2010 #1s

CAVS IN
Kidd, Jaric, Armstrong, Allen

Why? Keep the King happy. He says he and Kidd would win a title together...here's his chance.

NETS OUT
Kidd, Allen, Armstrong

NETS IN
Green, Gooden, Theo, Gibson OR Brown, 2008, 2010 #1s from Cleveland

Again, not as good as the Dallas deal, but perhaps better than nothing?

WOLVES OUT
Theo, Jaric, Green

WOLVES IN
Snow, Newble, Marshall

Strictly financial for the Wolves, although the benefits dont kick in until 2009/2010. But Marko is the only ugly long-term deal in MN anymore, and this rids the Wolves of it. The Wolves could add Snow and Marshall to Walker and Buckner and would have $26.4 million in expirings to make another big splash next season. This is a stretch, and it would be asking MN's owner to pay a big lux bill next year, most likely for not many wins.

Well, which Brown is it? Shannon or Devin?

Shannon - Get it done!
Devin - Still get it done!
Boobie - Would have to think about it, but in the end - get it done!

Man, I thought your subject header was the trade proposal. I nearly choked on my sandwich.

And getting Jaric off the books is a financial move, I suspect...diving into the lux tax next year could very well end up costing the Wolves MORE in the end than just keeping Marko.

loserX wrote:Man, I thought your subject header was the trade proposal. I nearly choked on my sandwich.

And getting Jaric off the books is a financial move, I suspect...diving into the lux tax next year could very well end up costing the Wolves MORE in the end than just keeping Marko.

Ya, that's what I thought the subject was also. Good thing I'm not eating right now.

It's not bad for the Nets but i don't think the wolves give Rattliffs just to get rid of Jaric.

loserX wrote:And getting Jaric off the books is a financial move, I suspect...diving into the lux tax next year could very well end up costing the Wolves MORE in the end than just keeping Marko.

Very true, which is why I think its shakey for the Wolves. By my math it costs them an extra $7 million next year, but they save $7 million each of the next two years. But of course, the $7 cost next year is doubled with the lux.

That will be the extent of my calculating, but I'm hoping shrink will come through and provide the numbers for us!

loserX wrote:Man, I thought your subject header was the trade proposal. I nearly choked on my sandwich.

And getting Jaric off the books is a financial move, I suspect...diving into the lux tax next year could very well end up costing the Wolves MORE in the end than just keeping Marko.

That's kind of how I saw it too, so I broke it down further:

2007-08: MIN SAVES $1.7 mil
2008-09: MIN LOSES $6.3 mil
2009-10: MIN SAVES $7.1 mil
2010-11: MIN SAVES $7.1 mil

If MIN loses $6.3 mil next season, I suspect that two of (Gomes, Craig Smith, Telfair) would not be back. Otherwise, as loserX states, MIN's going to be paying double, and evaporating the cap savings.

A couple things I would recommend:

I see Snow = Jaric, with each being better for the other's team, and Ratliff + Green for Marshall + Newble is a clear loss for MIN. MIN should be compensated for using Ratliff to facilitate someone's big deal.

If a deal like this is going to work, it should include one or two of the RFA's (Gomes, Craig Smith, Telfair). MIN can't afford to keep them, so they should be sent out to a team where they can help a play-off run. Of course, MIN should receive some future compensation for sacrificing such productive and cheap players.

i don't know if the wolves do this, because the savings won't begin until 09

I should add that I like general concept of MN Die Hard's deal. Ratliff's giant expiring could be used to help prevent those 10-for-2 deals, and using a player like Craig Smith can help grease the wheels, and get MIN more, future compensation.

MIN can be a terrific doorway for a play-off team to get one of those big contract All Star vets, since they have the giant expiring, they can include cheap production, and they would just want some cap relief and future prospects/picks, that have less value for a contender.

My only quibble here is that the cost of Marshall makes the deal too expensive, and I'm not sure the Cavs have enough value on their team to make a deal happen. At a minimum, they need more expirings here, because MIN would choke on giving up Ratliff and adding too much salary next year.

shrink wrote:My only quibble here is that the cost of Marshall makes the deal too expensive, and I'm not sure the Cavs have enough value on their team to make a deal happen. At a minimum, they need more expirings here, because MIN would choke on giving up Ratliff and adding too much salary next year.

Yep, if Marshall or Snow were expiring it would make a world of difference. It might work with Damon Jones instead of one of those two....his deal is also two years, but its a couple million less. I dont know if the trade works with that adjustment, but if so it looks a little better for MN.

With Kidd starting alongside Hughes and Gibson being traded the Cavs end up one of the worst shooting teams in the league. They'd better be trying to make the game a track meet otherwise they don't get better with this trade they'd get worse.

TheOUTLAW wrote:With Kidd starting alongside Hughes and Gibson being traded the Cavs end up one of the worst shooting teams in the league. They'd better be trying to make the game a track meet otherwise they don't get better with this trade they'd get worse.

Kidd will make Hughes look like an All-Star.

Strangely enough, Hughes has looked like an All Star for about the last couple weeks anyway.

shrink wrote:

loserX wrote:Man, I thought your subject header was the trade proposal. I nearly choked on my sandwich.

And getting Jaric off the books is a financial move, I suspect...diving into the lux tax next year could very well end up costing the Wolves MORE in the end than just keeping Marko.

That's kind of how I saw it too, so I broke it down further:

2007-08: MIN SAVES $1.7 mil
2008-09: MIN LOSES $6.3 mil
2009-10: MIN SAVES $7.1 mil
2010-11: MIN SAVES $7.1 mil

If MIN loses $6.3 mil next season, I suspect that two of (Gomes, Craig Smith, Telfair) would not be back. Otherwise, as loserX states, MIN's going to be paying double, and evaporating the cap savings.

A couple things I would recommend:

I see Snow = Jaric, with each being better for the other's team, and Ratliff + Green for Marshall + Newble is a clear loss for MIN. MIN should be compensated for using Ratliff to facilitate someone's big deal.

If a deal like this is going to work, it should include one or two of the RFA's (Gomes, Craig Smith, Telfair). MIN can't afford to keep them, so they should be sent out to a team where they can help a play-off run. Of course, MIN should receive some future compensation for sacrificing such productive and cheap players.

Maybe swap Smith for the 2010 CLE pick?

I don't like the fact that Kidd costs us Gibson and two firsts... Don't get me wrong Kidd's nice, but I personally don't think he's that nice...

HMM! I think this trade has legs...

I've tossed in ORL and here's what I came up with...

Orlando Magic
Incoming Players: Greg Buckner, Donyell Marshall, Craig Smith
Outgoing Players: Keyon Dooling, Carlos Arroyo

Minnesota Timberwolves
Incoming Players: Ira Newble, Eric Snow, Keyon Dooling, Carlos Arroyo
Outgoing Players: Greg Buckner, Theo Ratliff, Craig Smith, Marko Jaric

New Jersey Nets
Incoming Players: Drew Gooden, Theo Ratliff, Daniel Gibson
Outgoing Players: Jason Kidd

Cleveland Cavaliers
Incoming Players: Jason Kidd, Marko Jaric
Outgoing Players: Ira Newble, Eric Snow, Donyell Marshall, Drew Gooden, Daniel Gibson

I'm way to lazy to go through and think about this further at the moment, but heres my general though around this...

Including ORL and offloading smith, marshall, and Buckner gives them some benefits. They should probably toss in a lotto protected first to MN, but i'm not going to quibble about picks at the moment. I think ORL wants\needs a perimeter defender and Buckner can fit that role. Smith could look very nice opposite of Howard, and Marshall does provide some small value to ORL imo.

This addition should help MN avoid the luxury tax next year, and I think that it could be possible to swap in MN's early 2nd for the 2010 CLE pick so that NJ could get into a full rebuild mode immediately maybe send them cash + this years MN 2nd for the CLE 2010 1st. NJ could then use that cash and 2nd to get a late first this year.

Just an idea.

Interesting idea bruceallen. I really like the ORL angle here. Craig Smith is a productive low-post scorer that would minimize the minutes an expensive Rashard needs to bang under the boards with bigger players. Buckner is a vet perimeter defender who would help a contender, but would never get minutes on a rebuilding team like MIN. Marshall is another big, and his outside shooting would clear room underneath for Dwight Howard to work. Contractually, Smith is cheap and can be extended, and Buckner and Marshall become expiring contracts this summer. I would suggest using Pat Garrity instead of Dooling because ORL needs to retain a back up PG.

I also agree that MIN needs a late pick in here somewhere.

Jaric = Snow
Ratliff's expiring >= Newble, Arroyo, Dooling/Garrity (1 big vs 3)
Craig Smith + Buckner > nothing

shrink wrote:Interesting idea bruceallen. I really like the ORL angle here. Craig Smith is a productive low-post scorer that would minimize the minutes an expensive Rashard needs to bang under the boards with bigger players. Buckner is a vet perimeter defender who would help a contender, but would never get minutes on a rebuilding team like MIN. Marshall is another big, and his outside shooting would clear room underneath for Dwight Howard to work. Contractually, Smith is cheap and can be extended, and Buckner and Marshall become expiring contracts this summer. I would suggest using Pat Garrity instead of Dooling because ORL needs to retain a back up PG.

I also agree that MIN needs a late pick in here somewhere.

Jaric = Snow
Ratliff's expiring >= Newble, Arroyo, Dooling/Garrity (1 big vs 3)
Craig Smith + Buckner > nothing

Jaric is NOT equal to Snow. His contract has 2 more years on it.

LBJ4MVP23 wrote: Jaric is NOT equal to Snow. His contract has 2 more years on it.

And he's 8 times as productive.


Jaric's probably overpaid about $2 mil a year. For 3.5 more years, that's about a negative $7 mil.

At 15 FG%, 1 PPG, Snow is overpaid $7 mil a year. For 1.5 more years, that's about a negative $10 mil.

shrink wrote:-= original quote snipped =-
And he's 8 times as productive.

Jaric's probably overpaid about $2 mil a year. For 3.5 more years, that's about a negative $7 mil.

At 15 FG%, 1 PPG, Snow is overpaid $7 mil a year. For 1.5 more years, that's about a negative $10 mil.

This is a fair assumption but I question a few things in regards to production vs value w\ taking actual "production" into account. This is how I look at it.

Snow will give virtually 0 production for the next 1.5 years. He is worth -6m/yr to whatever teams roster he is on. His only value is that he will expire in 2 years time. This is an agreeable point for everyone?

Now...Marco is overpaid slightly and his contract lasts 2 years longer than snows, but he will provide something close to actual value for $$$ spent over the next 2 years. Snow will not.

Now in 2 years when Snow is "expired", and Marco has 2 years left where does that leave us. Marco is at worst the new Eric Snow with 2 years left on his contract, except that CLE would have gotten actual production for the ~Xm they will be spending towards snow's contract over the next 1.5 years. Plus Marco at worst will be a somewhat movable asset with only 2 years of contract left.

The value of additional now production from already contracted players is also RAISE in this sort of trade where Kidd is coming in. Since you should want every dollar of production you can get for the money spend now.