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Official NBA Draft Lottery Discussion Thread II

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Post#101 » by Flash3 » Tue Apr 8, 2008 8:54 pm

G.cracker wrote:As has been mentioned before, I'd rather get #1, trade it and Blount to Memphis for #2 and Miller, even though Miller's shot has gone down lately. Memphis has pgs and needs a Beasly, and we could get Rose then. Sid brought this up on Riley's show and Riley laughed and said he wasn't far from the truth on such things.
Yes, Memphis has PGs, but are they really sold on Conley or anyone else for that matter?

I could see them trading Conley or any of their other PGs for a future pick.
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Post#102 » by SJ2100 » Tue Apr 8, 2008 9:35 pm

An argument for Rose - everything we have been saying we need from our "other" guard next to Wade can be provided by Rose.

Wade has been among the league leaders in turnovers, and while some of that could be attributed to injury, I would say it is more of a result of (1) an increased ballhandling role given the decline of our point guard play and (2) the need to create on every single posession without anybody else getting him (or anybody else) easy buckets. Rose would become our primary ballhandler, shoulder some of the responsibility of finding an open Marion streaking to the rim or Haslem popping out to 15ft, and is smart enough to get the ball in his best scorer's hands (CDR in college/Wade in pros).

Secondly, the guard next to Wade ideally will draw the tougher defensive assignment, and must be able to guard both the 1 and the 2, allowing Wade to rest on defense, allowing him to concentrate on offense, running the floor, and help D. Pre-injury, Wade would run down a player who had a easy layup and contest each of those shots; this year his energy levels have been low and he hasn't shown the hustle that has made him such a favorite. If Wade's athleticism returns post-injury (which it better, or else were screwed anyway), he needs to run the floor on both ends and look for his own easy transition buckets, assisted by our new and talented PG.

As for all the commotion about Rose's "poor" 3-point shooting, he did shoot over 33% this year, so he is not incapable. Rose will find himself wide open at the three-point line when Wade creates, which would help that out more. Once he works with Spoelstra, Rose should shoot over 35% from 3 by his second year, at the latest.

All in all, Rose would bring another dimension to our team while maximizing the abilities of Wade. This should serve as a (positive) evaluation of Rose and his potential impact on the Heat. I still do think that Beasley and Marion would be perfect complements at forward as well, pairing a post player who can create his own shot with a player who scores without plays being called for him, and both would be great rebounders. Still though, based on what I have seen from Rose in this tournament, drafting him would help us to keep Dwyane Wade fresh to do what he does best.
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Post#103 » by CB4MiamiHeat » Tue Apr 8, 2008 9:40 pm

Flash3 wrote:Izzy just made a good point worth mentioning; let's say Beasley is Melo (V2), at best. -- Take a look at the situation out in Denver, and when AI/Melo are on the floor together they both need the ball in their hands to be effective; AI-Wade/Melo-Beasley. Melo doesn't do much other than score the ball. Given that, would a Wade/Beasley combo work or would it be a AI/Melo scenario?

Now Rose, he can bring the ball up court, effectively run your team, get your team in its offensive sets, and give you 2 solid penetrators (Wade and Rose) to the hoop, and after all the rule changes, this has become a G's game.


Actually Melo/AI are both perimeter oriented...thats why it hasnt worked out like a Deron/Boozer

Youre actually making a good argument for Beasley over ..cause while having 2 perimeter stars looks good on paper, its been proven thats its better to have inside out duo
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Post#104 » by Flash3 » Tue Apr 8, 2008 10:30 pm

CB4MiamiHeat wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



Actually Melo/AI are both perimeter oriented...thats why it hasnt worked out like a Deron/Boozer

Youre actually making a good argument for Beasley over ..cause while having 2 perimeter stars looks good on paper, its been proven thats its better to have inside out duo
I wasn't necessarily making an argument for either. -- But, instead just throwing out what was mentioned.

If I had to choose, I'd go with Rose. Our biggest needs right now are at the 1 and 5 spots, and there's no C in the near future we can reasonably get, but we can reasonably be in position to grab Rose if the basketball gods are on our side.
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Post#105 » by DanDanE420 » Tue Apr 8, 2008 10:48 pm

When someone says Beasley will be a Jamison-caliber player, you know they haven't watched him play. He's on a different level in terms of strength, aggression and athleticism, which is why DraftExpress throws in the Stoudamire comparison.

Beasley has been the best player available up until the point where he stopped playing games. Thankfully, I don't think Randy Pfund's memory is as short as certain RealGM members.

The thing that upsets me is that some people (mainly CoolD) have created the myth that Beasley isn't a winner. What is that based on, besides a steaming pile of manure? He took a Kansas State program that was historically mediocre and had just lost its million dollar coach, and he carried it to the second round of the NCAA Tournament. He also lifted KSU to the biggest win in program history over Kansas. In fact, he averaged 32 ppg against that NBA-type KU frontcourt.

If we pick Beasley, we instantly have the best forwards in basketball to go along with one of the best guards in the world. On top of that, we have the flexibility to go after a PG/C with Haslem (who could have fetched Bibby this year) or Marion (who is carrying 17 expiring millions). Beasley can play SF next to Haslem or PF next to Marion, and we'd still have a top-notch, versatile group of forwards.

It was Beasley all year, and it still is.
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Post#106 » by Flash4thewin » Wed Apr 9, 2008 12:33 am

I just hope we get the #1 or #2 pick. Fundamentally everything would point to Beasley as the top pick for this team. We almost got to finals with D.Jones as our starting pg, the cavs got to the finals with a shoot first pg and we won a title with Jwill. Even if Rose turns into Paul part 2 we dont have any post players and would have to become a run and gun team which dont go far in the playoffs. Its easier to get a pg than pf in trades.

Emotionality Rose wows people with his potential and should be a stud but we'd still have no post player. Our only chip would be Marion and his expiring contract in a year when teams like the cavs have over 20 mil in expiring contracts and we dont have our draft pick next season. Can Marion + UD give us a stud pf in a trade when we couldnt parlay Jwil+Davis max expiring contract into anything? The bright side would be Dorell, Rose would make him a better player by playing run and gun style and if/when Wade gets hurt next season he could carry the team on his back.

Either way i hope we get either a top 2 pick, because we need either one of them.
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Post#107 » by CoolD » Wed Apr 9, 2008 1:02 am

Flash4thewin wrote:I just hope we get the #1 or #2 pick. Fundamentally everything would point to Beasley as the top pick for this team. We almost got to finals with D.Jones as our starting pg, the cavs got to the finals with a shoot first pg and we won a title with Jwill. Even if Rose turns into Paul part 2 we dont have any post players and would have to become a run and gun team which dont go far in the playoffs. Its easier to get a pg than pf in trades.

Emotionality Rose wows people with his potential and should be a stud but we'd still have no post player. Our only chip would be Marion and his expiring contract in a year when teams like the cavs have over 20 mil in expiring contracts and we dont have our draft pick next season. Can Marion + UD give us a stud pf in a trade when we couldnt parlay Jwil+Davis max expiring contract into anything? The bright side would be Dorell, Rose would make him a better player by playing run and gun style and if/when Wade gets hurt next season he could carry the team on his back.

Either way i hope we get either a top 2 pick, because we need either one of them.
You know why Jordan got drafted at number three. Because the same logic you have.

But know looking back in the past, a great player could have impact no matter the size or whatever perceived notions other people have in how to built a teams.

How did Isiah Thomas win two titles with no bigs?
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Post#108 » by Flash3 » Wed Apr 9, 2008 1:35 am

Wolves Would Select Rose With 1st Overall Pick?
April 8, 2008 - 7:22 pm
Pioneer Press -

Derrick Rose reportedly would be the Minnesota Timberwolves choice if they win the NBA lottery in May, according to Charley Waters of the Pioneer Press.

Rose has yet to make his decision about the draft. [READ]
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Post#109 » by Flash4thewin » Wed Apr 9, 2008 1:35 am

Jordan was the best player ever to date and that was the last team to win without post player over 10 years ago, Isiah won over 20 years ago.

The current pistons won once they got Sheed.
Either player will be a much welcomed addition to this team.

"The Wolves already have there stud post player in Jefferson, thats why they need a stud wing player like Rose, we have the stud wing player in Wade but no post player"
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Post#110 » by CoolD » Wed Apr 9, 2008 2:06 am

Flash4thewin wrote:Jordan was the best player ever to date and that was the last team to win without post player over 10 years ago, Isiah won over 20 years ago.

The current pistons won once they got Sheed.
Either player will be a much welcomed addition to this team.

"The Wolves already have there stud post player in Jefferson, thats why they need a stud wing player like Rose, we have the stud wing player in Wade but no post player"
First the fact you keep implying again. Beasley will have a Hakeem, Shaq or Duncan post presence is the most rubbish arguement I keep hearing.

Know if you tell me he will have a Boozer like presence, I might give you the benefit. But has Boozer won a title? Has even Elton Brand won a title.
Has even Amare that some compared him too, won a title.

I don't even think Beasley is comparable to those anyhow in the post, but giving everyone the benefit of the doubt in the assertions of Beasley. That are extreme far off, because they see him vs college stiffs. He is 6 9 235 pound guy, exact as Antwan Jamison.
Antwan too look like a big guy in College, but once he came to the NBA, he looked normal.


Great players win titles, not post players, not outside players, great players. Am betting on Rose being great, Beasley will not be great in the NBA.
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Post#111 » by DBurks2818 » Wed Apr 9, 2008 2:17 am

He's a freshman.
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Post#112 » by Flash4thewin » Wed Apr 9, 2008 2:28 am

I never said Beasley will have a Hakeem, Shaq or Duncan post presence. But he will have a better presence than anyone we have on our team or might be able to get via trade realistically.

Either way either player would be a blessing for this team.
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Post#113 » by HeatSince88 » Wed Apr 9, 2008 2:33 am

Jordan's Bulls were actually one of the most post-based offenses of our time. By definition, the triangle is a series of post-ups, often several post-ups on the same possession. If you're too young to remember that, watch today's Lakers and count the number of post-ups.

The only team in the last 30-40 years to win a title without a significant post player may have been the 1980s Pistons ... and those who know their b-ball would tell you that statement severely underrates the post skills and importance of Mark Aguirre and James "Buddha" Edwards. Those two lived in the post and combined to score 30 ppg (mostly out of the post) for those championship teams. The Heat have no such post players.

So you could legitmately say that every team that's won a championsip in the modern era has had a more significant post presence than Marion or Haslem or Blount.

Don't get me wrong, Rose may very well be a more certain star than Beasley. But saying that Rose is a better fit in building a championship team around Wade is to ignore the last 40 years of NBA history, current standings, and the fundamental tenant of offensive basketball ("inside-out").
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Post#114 » by BFRESH44 » Wed Apr 9, 2008 3:13 am

I'm convinced that CoolD has never seen Beasley play. Not once.
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Post#115 » by Flash3 » Wed Apr 9, 2008 3:27 am

They are so few true post-players in this league as the years go by, and when they do come out, it's few and far between.

And, if you get one in the draft, you're going to have to wait a few years for him to develop, as big men usually take a few years before they reach their potential; J O'Neal and Bynum come to mind.
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Post#116 » by miamiballer » Wed Apr 9, 2008 3:59 am

the thing is that beasley is way more nba ready than rose right now and would give us a dimension we sorely lack...scoring, both inside and perimeter...no hes not antawn jamison, not even close...he is like amare inside and caremlo outside....to me he is just as much a big man as amare, dirk and in today's nba asides from TD and KG it doesnt get much better
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Post#117 » by CoolD » Wed Apr 9, 2008 6:10 am

HeatSince88 wrote:Jordan's Bulls were actually one of the most post-based offenses of our time. By definition, the triangle is a series of post-ups, often several post-ups on the same possession. If you're too young to remember that, watch today's Lakers and count the number of post-ups.

The only team in the last 30-40 years to win a title without a significant post player may have been the 1980s Pistons ... and those who know their b-ball would tell you that statement severely underrates the post skills and importance of Mark Aguirre and James "Buddha" Edwards. Those two lived in the post and combined to score 30 ppg (mostly out of the post) for those championship teams. The Heat have no such post players.

So you could legitmately say that every team that's won a championsip in the modern era has had a more significant post presence than Marion or Haslem or Blount.

Don't get me wrong, Rose may very well be a more certain star than Beasley. But saying that Rose is a better fit in building a championship team around Wade is to ignore the last 40 years of NBA history, current standings, and the fundamental tenant of offensive basketball ("inside-out").
11 titles by Boston. Who score down low for them, did they have Chamberlain. No they had a defensive big in Bill Russel, are you implying Beasley is one.

Detroit, how many post bigs did they have? The had defensive big men again, are you implying Beasley is a defensive big.

Bulls how many post bigs? Maybe Luc Longley, and Kukoc. Being generous.
No real bigs in defense, but once again a very good defensive team.

Know Lakers with Magic, had Kareem. People think, oh post precense. But he had as much impact at the defensive end, he was offensive, defensive big. .

Hakeem, offensive and defensive big.

Duncan offensive and defensive big.

Shaq offensive and defensive big.

Beasley borderline big, not a defensive big.

But I counted between Boston Celtics, Detroit with Isiah, and the Bulls, a total of 19 titles without no real offensive dominant bigs.

Know let me count the number of titles with defensive bigs. I think 28 titles. Didn't include Boston Celtics of the 80's, but they R Parish and McHale

So I proved you could win titles without no post dominance in the offensive end, a total of 19 titles.

I counted 28 titles with a defensive big.


So I get this, it helps to have a descent low post game, but is not the end of the world if you don't have it, you could still win titles. But you need a defensive big even more, but is not necessary if your overall team defense is good enough, but the Bulls are the anomaly at this end.

I agree in post precense, but I think the real post presence the Heat will need, is a defensive one. Beasley neither Rose.

But I think finding a pointguard to spark us to be one of the top offensive teams is the beginning. Then Riley has to work his magic finding the defensive bigs to get this team to whole new level.
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Post#118 » by TheGreatPooter » Wed Apr 9, 2008 12:21 pm

CoolD you know nothing about scouting players.

Beasley is going to be a dominant scorer inside and outside. And his rebounding is amazing. You dont lead the ncaa in rebounding as a freshman by luck, he just has great instincts.

If we dont land beasley, youre gonna be crying when he drops 40 points on us all the time.

Basketball players are basketball players. And beasley is an EXCELLENT BASKETBALL PLAYER. ANY LEVEL. DER.

Youre the type of guy who said "Roy is too slow for a 2 guard and doesnt have point guard instincts"


riley would love to have beasley or rose. youre out of your mind if you dont think so.
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Post#119 » by BigBallingMIA » Wed Apr 9, 2008 1:03 pm

After a long break, i'm going to return to my active posting :D

Have not watched much tournament time but through the looks of stats and some play from beasley, it seems like he manufactured one of the greatest seasons in college basketball. He had some 20/20, 40/10 point games, just absurd. As for Rose, I have analyzed his game and it's elite aswell.

With my limited knowledge, i only know this as a fact... The number one pick will be a TOUGH TOUGH decision. We either go with a big that has midrange and post capabilities or with the slasher and elite athlete in rose. Man i just pray we dont get the third pick :x .

Btw Flash3, whats the pic in your avatar? Looks very engaging in a meditative way.
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Post#120 » by Flash3 » Wed Apr 9, 2008 1:42 pm

BigBallingMIA wrote:Btw Flash3, whats the pic in your avatar? Looks very engaging in a meditative way.
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