Official Offseason thread Vol 3: Bck2BACK

[Hallstar]

JJ is a better player than Leonard. I don't even know if that's really debatable tbh...he's just flat out better.

I really don't see that being an either/or scenario though. I just assumed JJ would be at the 4 and Leonard at the 5. If that's the case though, we need DJJ at the 3 as he's a better rebounder than probably either of those guys.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/johnsja01.html


vs


https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/leoname01.html


you are correct JJ is a slightly better player

Last year, JJ wasn't. You guys just hate on any finesse big man. I remember how much hate Olynyk got when we signed him. Leonard is a great offensive center but you just stay on his defense.

lol, I love how you pick and choose. You hate on John Collins and Booker because you claim mediocre defense despite them being 20ppg players, but willing to roll dice on Myers friggin Leonard as a starter

[Feel_the_Heat15]

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/johnsja01.html


vs


https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/leoname01.html


you are correct JJ is a slightly better player

Last year, JJ wasn't. You guys just hate on any finesse big man. I remember how much hate Olynyk got when we signed him. Leonard is a great offensive center but you just stay on his defense.

lol, I love how you pick and choose. You hate on John Collins and Booker because you claim mediocre defense despite them being 20ppg players, but willing to roll dice on Myers friggin Leonard as a starter

I don't think I called either bad players and these are different circumstances.

[rate_]

[eddieheatfan]

lets be fair here JJ had more gameplay time than leonard. so lets see what happens this season with both players.

[eddieheatfan]

Feel the Heat, what do you value in Leonard? Make your case for him to be an important rotation player.

If you think Johnson will be a better player than Leonard there's nothing else I can say. This is like asking why we should play Beno a few years ago. We don't have JaVale McGee on the roster.

For Miami, JJ is absolutely a better player than Leonard. I'd rather see Bam, Olynyk, JJ and DJJ being bigs(C/PFs) in the rotation then seeing Leonard eat up any of those player's minutes on any regular basis.

If Leonard can up his defense to being a solid defensive player, he could be a good player.

problem is that the heat needs him more on offense than anything else. didnt you saw how abysmal on O the heat were last year? for same reason they couldnt make the playoffs....err....they got themselves out of it ,rather

[Kobewade11]

I forget the page but saw some videos of Winslow training on IG, he looked noticeably leaner, appears to be in great shape. Oh yea Wiggins was cooking Devin Booker on the same page too

[Feel_the_Heat15]

I think Herro has a good chance of supplanting Waiters as a starter. Better open jump-shooter, excellent lob passer, better free-throw shooter and rebounder. Maybe he becomes the team's 2nd best scorer.

Starters:
Winslow
Herro
Butler
Leonard
Adebayo

Bench:
Dragic
Waiters
Jones Jr.
Olynyk

[AirP.]

If you think Johnson will be a better player than Leonard there's nothing else I can say. This is like asking why we should play Beno a few years ago. We don't have JaVale McGee on the roster.

For Miami, JJ is absolutely a better player than Leonard. I'd rather see Bam, Olynyk, JJ and DJJ being bigs(C/PFs) in the rotation then seeing Leonard eat up any of those player's minutes on any regular basis.

If Leonard can up his defense to being a solid defensive player, he could be a good player.

problem is that the heat needs him more on offense than anything else. didnt you saw how abysmal on O the heat were last year? for same reason they couldnt make the playoffs....err....they got themselves out of it ,rather

Miami was 26th in scoring without a true #1 option, which they have this year, I think that helps out a lot. Although Butler isn't a high volume good 3pt shooter, he's an efficient scorer and doesn't turn the ball over much.

Just looking at the current makeup of the roster, the Heat have 3 good playmakers in Butler, Dragic, and Winslow and solid or better 3pt shooters in Butler, Dragic, Winslow, Waiters and Olynyk and that's not including some of the younger unproven players in Herro, KZ, Robinson or Nunn.

I think this current roster will surprised people, look how much Butler improved Minnesota(they were on a 52 win pace with Butler) before he got hurt and wanted out. I get Butler isn't the flashy scorer who can put up 28 ppg without working up a sweat, but he gets results. That last Bulls team he was on should have been one of the worst teams in the league, and even after trading Gibson and losing D.Wade he was able to carry that team into the playoffs, kinda like he was almost able to get Philly past Toronto in the playoffs.

[Feel_the_Heat15]

The one year Leonard played 25% of his minutes at PF, the Blazers were 1.8 points P100P better with him on the court than off and people are fighting me on the idea of playing him at PF instead of center.

[twix2500]

For Miami, JJ is absolutely a better player than Leonard. I'd rather see Bam, Olynyk, JJ and DJJ being bigs(C/PFs) in the rotation then seeing Leonard eat up any of those player's minutes on any regular basis.

If Leonard can up his defense to being a solid defensive player, he could be a good player.

problem is that the heat needs him more on offense than anything else. didnt you saw how abysmal on O the heat were last year? for same reason they couldnt make the playoffs....err....they got themselves out of it ,rather

Miami was 26th in scoring without a true #1 option, which they have this year, I think that helps out a lot. Although Butler isn't a high volume good 3pt shooter, he's an efficient scorer and doesn't turn the ball over much.

Just looking at the current makeup of the roster, the Heat have 3 good playmakers in Butler, Dragic, and Winslow and solid or better 3pt shooters in Butler, Dragic, Winslow, Waiters and Olynyk and that's not including some of the younger unproven players in Herro, KZ, Robinson or Nunn.

I think this current roster will surprised people, look how much Butler improved Minnesota(they were on a 52 win pace with Butler) before he got hurt and wanted out. I get Butler isn't the flashy scorer who can put up 28 ppg without working up a sweat, but he gets results. That last Bulls team he was on should have been one of the worst teams in the league, and even after trading Gibson and losing D.Wade he was able to carry that team into the playoffs, kinda like he was almost able to get Philly past Toronto in the playoffs.

When you have stars they draw double teams which makes easier for the role players. Miami did not have a star so everyone has more defensive pressure on them. Scheming only takes you so far. Butler should have that star impact and you will see the difference

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[AirP.]

The one year Leonard played 25% of his minutes at PF, the Blazers were 1.8 points P100P better with him on the court than off and people are fighting me on the idea of playing him at PF instead of center.

He was in Portland 7 years, was their 11th pick in 2012, they extended him because of his potential, you tell me why that team that was highly invested in Leonard wouldn't have used him at PF more instead of burying him on the bench which they basically did every single year in Portland? 1333 minutes wa his most for a season there, Miami had 7 players last season play more minutes then Leonard's highest amount in his 7 year career. So it's possible he played ~350 minutes at PF in that season, how could anyone question that large of a dataset.

I know... he can shoot open 3s as a 7'1'' player under contract.

[Feel_the_Heat15]

The one year Leonard played 25% of his minutes at PF, the Blazers were 1.8 points P100P better with him on the court than off and people are fighting me on the idea of playing him at PF instead of center.

He was in Portland 7 years, was their 11th pick in 2012, they extended him because of his potential, you tell me why that team that was highly invested in Leonard wouldn't have used him at PF more instead of burying him on the bench which they basically did every single year in Portland? 1333 minutes wa his most for a season there, Miami had 7 players last season play more minutes then Leonard's highest amount in his 7 year career. So it's possible he played ~350 minutes at PF in that season, how could anyone question that large of a dataset.

I know... he can shoot open 3s as a 7'1'' player under contract.

Am I saying that Leonard is a great player? No. I'm basically saying that he's the 4th best big on the roster and that he's better than James Johnson. Portland didn't have many good centers off the bench to consistently play Leonard at the 4 so there's your answer as to why Portland didn't play him at the 4 much. Also, in Leonard's 2nd best on-off season he spent 11% of his time on the court at PF. There's obviously a positive relationship with him playing at PF over center.

I don't know how you can argue JJ over Leonard if JJ plays as well this season as he did last season. 52.2% TS won't cut it for this team.

The "open 3s" slight is also ridiculous. Players rarely take contested 3s and centers especially rarely take contested 3s.

[fishfuego.]

The one year Leonard played 25% of his minutes at PF, the Blazers were 1.8 points P100P better with him on the court than off and people are fighting me on the idea of playing him at PF instead of center.

He was in Portland 7 years, was their 11th pick in 2012, they extended him because of his potential, you tell me why that team that was highly invested in Leonard wouldn't have used him at PF more instead of burying him on the bench which they basically did every single year in Portland? 1333 minutes wa his most for a season there, Miami had 7 players last season play more minutes then Leonard's highest amount in his 7 year career. So it's possible he played ~350 minutes at PF in that season, how could anyone question that large of a dataset.

I know... he can shoot open 3s as a 7'1'' player under contract.

Am I saying that Leonard is a great player? No. I'm basically saying that he's the 4th best big on the roster and that he's better than James Johnson. Portland didn't have many good centers off the bench to consistently play Leonard at the 4 so there's your answer as to why Portland didn't play him at the 4 much. Also, in Leonard's 2nd best on-off season he spent 11% of his time on the court at PF. There's obviously a positive relationship with him playing at PF over center.

I don't know how you can argue JJ over Leonard if JJ plays as well this season as he did last season. 52.2% TS won't cut it for this team.

The "open 3s" slight is also ridiculous. Players rarely take contested 3s and centers especially rarely take contested 3s.

JJ disappointed the heck out of me last season as if he was a rookie shooting without confidence and bricking every important shot or turning the ball, and although I don't have the stat sheet in front of me, it seemed that way.


Give Leonard a shot over JJ. Make JJ earn his playing time, he is not a damn rookie, and to think at one point a few years ago (his contract year) I though he could be an LBJ-lite lol.

[AirP.]

Am I saying that Leonard is a great player? No. I'm basically saying that he's the 4th best big on the roster and that he's better than James Johnson. Portland didn't have many good centers off the bench to consistently play Leonard at the 4 so there's your answer as to why Portland didn't play him at the 4 much. Also, in Leonard's 2nd best on-off season he spent 11% of his time on the court at PF. There's obviously a positive relationship with him playing at PF over center.

I don't know how you can argue JJ over Leonard if JJ plays as well this season as he did last season. 52.2% TS won't cut it for this team.

The "open 3s" slight is also ridiculous. Players rarely take contested 3s and centers especially rarely take contested 3s.

Oh, we're we're comparing him to centers now, that's at least some progress.

It wouldn't be a problem that he's so selective(lots of bigs are) but the problem is that, that's his only good skill at the NBA level, his rebounding is average at best and his defense isn't good. I'd rather have a defensive player who save points on the defensive side then hope Leonard gets open.

Once again, I get he'll get utilized in a certain role and hopefully he excels in that role, but to even entertain starting him where most matchups will be horrible for him is a horrible idea and it's even worse floating the idea of him playing PF when more and more SFs are playing PF in the last few seasons.

[AirP.]

JJ disappointed the heck out of me last season as if he was a rookie shooting without confidence and bricking every important shot or turning the ball, and although I don't have the stat sheet in front of me, it seemed that way.


Give Leonard a shot over JJ. Make JJ earn his playing time, he is not a damn rookie, and to think at one point a few years ago (his contract year) I though he could be an LBJ-lite lol.

Sure, JJ was coming off an injury and missed the first part of the season and also was injured during the season. I'm not saying JJ is a good NBA player, but he can be a better defender at PF in this new era of the NBA.

[Feel_the_Heat15]

Am I saying that Leonard is a great player? No. I'm basically saying that he's the 4th best big on the roster and that he's better than James Johnson. Portland didn't have many good centers off the bench to consistently play Leonard at the 4 so there's your answer as to why Portland didn't play him at the 4 much. Also, in Leonard's 2nd best on-off season he spent 11% of his time on the court at PF. There's obviously a positive relationship with him playing at PF over center.

I don't know how you can argue JJ over Leonard if JJ plays as well this season as he did last season. 52.2% TS won't cut it for this team.

The "open 3s" slight is also ridiculous. Players rarely take contested 3s and centers especially rarely take contested 3s.

Oh, we're we're comparing him to centers now, that's at least some progress.

It wouldn't be a problem that he's so selective(lots of bigs are) but the problem is that, that's his only good skill at the NBA level, his rebounding is average at best and his defense isn't good. I'd rather have a defensive player who save points on the defensive side then hope Leonard gets open.

Once again, I get he'll get utilized in a certain role and hopefully he excels in that role, but to even entertain starting him where most matchups will be horrible for him is a horrible idea and it's even worse floating the idea of him playing PF when more and more SFs are playing PF in the last few seasons.

I only compared to him centers in that situation because he's 7 feet tall and the bigger you are, the less likely you are to attempt a contested 3. Shooting isn't Leonard's only good skill and he is very very good at shooting. Leonard is also a capable passer. If you'd rather have your 4th best big man be a good defender/bad shooter than a good shooter/bad defender that's your preference and I have mine.

They're worse matchups for him at the C position than PF so I don't know what you're talking about. What kind of team would want a player than can't block shots, rebound or steal anchoring the defense? Also explain the on-off statistics that show that teams are better off with him playing PF. Low sample size but can hardly be considered a coincidence. The Ryan Andersons of the NBA aren't playing center they're playing PF. Name one center that shoots 3s and can't protect the rim that mostly plays at the center position. If you can't, then realize how inane your argument is.

[fishfuego.]

JJ disappointed the heck out of me last season as if he was a rookie shooting without confidence and bricking every important shot or turning the ball, and although I don't have the stat sheet in front of me, it seemed that way.


Give Leonard a shot over JJ. Make JJ earn his playing time, he is not a damn rookie, and to think at one point a few years ago (his contract year) I though he could be an LBJ-lite lol.

Sure, JJ was coming off an injury and missed the first part of the season and also was injured during the season. I'm not saying JJ is a good NBA player, but he can be a better defender at PF in this new era of the NBA.

I really do hope so.

[twix2500]

I still do not understand what is the purpose of playing Leonard at power forward. Is being tall and shooting a 3 the requirement to play power forward?

We been clamoring over a stretch 4 or 5 ever since Josh McRoberts. As if that is the key to having a good offense. The one time that we had a good stretch 4 was a player who wasnt a 4, but just a small forward playing the 4. Babbit, Lewis and Battier. The rest been floppididy flop

[Feel_the_Heat15]

I still do not understand what is the purpose of playing Leonard at power forward. Is being tall and shooting a 3 the requirement to play power forward?

We been clamoring over a stretch 4 or 5 ever since Josh McRoberts. As if that is the key to having a good offense. The one time that we had a good stretch 4 was a player who wasnt a 4, but just a small forward playing the 4. Babbit, Lewis and Battier. The rest been floppididy flop

Why did Ryan Anderson mostly play at the 4?

[twix2500]

I still do not understand what is the purpose of playing Leonard at power forward. Is being tall and shooting a 3 the requirement to play power forward?

We been clamoring over a stretch 4 or 5 ever since Josh McRoberts. As if that is the key to having a good offense. The one time that we had a good stretch 4 was a player who wasnt a 4, but just a small forward playing the 4. Babbit, Lewis and Battier. The rest been floppididy flop

Why did Ryan Anderson mostly play at the 4?

Because he was the traditional powerforward size and quickness.

Let me add, he was also pretty athletic when he came into the league. He was quick agile, able to rebound, handle some and shoot. Once he got slow he was quickly faded out the league. Mostly due to knee injuries. Just incase you are thinking of the slow Anderson.