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Miami Heat Speculation Thread - 2020 and beyond...

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Re: Miami Heat Speculation Thread - 2020 and beyond... 

Post#1241 » by RexBoyWonder » Thu Nov 5, 2020 7:10 pm

Beenie wrote:
RexBoyWonder wrote:
MartyCONLONNN wrote:The homer blindness is impressive on here. You’re talking about trading a one dimensional shooter who’s miserable on the defensive end & was a non factor in both the ECF & Finals for a 2 way all star calibre player who is considered the best wing defender in the league and can drop 30 on any given night.

You can scheme shooters who cant create for themselves out of a series but you can’t do anything about an elite defensive force and dynamic playmaker/scorer


If they were the same age, and more importantly made the same salary, no one would question that Jure > Duncan.

But the younger player will have a cap hold of ~2Mil in a year, while the other will have a cap hold of around 27Mil, which will kill the chance to add a third player who is much better then both of them.

We need to think big picture here, Giannis looks to be attainable, he's 26 YO, he's the MVP. You've got to give yourself the best chance to get him in a year.

Opportunity cost (also referred to as Alternative cost) is defined by New Oxford American Dictionary as "the loss of potential gain from other alternatives when one alternative is chosen". [1


This is assuming that Jrue wouldn't opt-out and want to resign. I'm assuming in the opposite direction that he would because I give Riley the benefit of the doubt that he would only make the deal under those conditions. We already have the Galo example to look towards as a precedent.


It makes no difference if he opts in or out, we won't have enough cap to have both Jrue and Giannis on the books, Unless you want to dump Bam or Jimmy.
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Re: Miami Heat Speculation Thread - 2020 and beyond... 

Post#1242 » by Beenie » Thu Nov 5, 2020 7:14 pm

RexBoyWonder wrote:
Beenie wrote:
RexBoyWonder wrote:
If they were the same age, and more importantly made the same salary, no one would question that Jure > Duncan.

But the younger player will have a cap hold of ~2Mil in a year, while the other will have a cap hold of around 27Mil, which will kill the chance to add a third player who is much better then both of them.

We need to think big picture here, Giannis looks to be attainable, he's 26 YO, he's the MVP. You've got to give yourself the best chance to get him in a year.



This is assuming that Jrue wouldn't opt-out and want to resign. I'm assuming in the opposite direction that he would because I give Riley the benefit of the doubt that he would only make the deal under those conditions. We already have the Galo example to look towards as a precedent.


It makes no difference if he opts in or out, we won't have enough cap to have both Jrue and Giannis on the books, Unless you want to dump Bam or Jimmy.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but Mia could go over the cap on Jrue so long as they sign Giannis first?
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Re: Miami Heat Speculation Thread - 2020 and beyond... 

Post#1243 » by Seabass777 » Thu Nov 5, 2020 7:16 pm

Beenie wrote:
Seabass777 wrote:
Beenie wrote:

The distinction should be made that it's primarily Duncan, not Herro who is getting mentioned in a possible trade for Jrue.

In my mock proposal, Mia also acquires Reddick who compensates for much of the lost 3-point shooting.

Consider it's not guaranteed that Mia can afford Duncan after next season, particularly if they pursue Giannis and then have to max out Bam. Reddick is older and might be more inclined to take a discounted offer.

And I don't know how you can be so sure that Jrue wouldn't put Mia in the driver's seat. They were 2 wins away from a chip. Rondo, at times, terrorized the Heat defense by dribbling to the rim at will. That's not happening if Jrue is in the lineup.


We have Duncan's bird rights I believe, so we can go over the salary cap to resign him, retaining him would be a non-issue


At what price?

That's gonna matter. If he gets 20 mil per year offers (not out of the realm possibilities) does Mia want to match and be a highly luxury taxed team in these uncertain economic times?
y


I don't think so because if you have Giannis with this core your competing for championships at least for the next 5 years, so in that case I don't think Mickey would mind paying the luxury tax if it means going to the Finals every year.
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Re: Miami Heat Speculation Thread - 2020 and beyond... 

Post#1244 » by Seabass777 » Thu Nov 5, 2020 7:19 pm

twix2500 wrote:
Seabass777 wrote:
Beenie wrote:

The distinction should be made that it's primarily Duncan, not Herro who is getting mentioned in a possible trade for Jrue.

In my mock proposal, Mia also acquires Reddick who compensates for much of the lost 3-point shooting.

Consider it's not guaranteed that Mia can afford Duncan after next season, particularly if they pursue Giannis and then have to max out Bam. Reddick is older and might be more inclined to take a discounted offer.

And I don't know how you can be so sure that Jrue wouldn't put Mia in the driver's seat. They were 2 wins away from a chip. Rondo, at times, terrorized the Heat defense by dribbling to the rim at will. That's not happening if Jrue is in the lineup.


We have Duncan's bird rights I believe, so we can go over the salary cap to resign him, retaining him would be a non-issue
It would be, if Duncan can get an extremely high offer somewhere else. 3 max contracts and then Duncan who might get 20 plus mill per. Is that feasible especially he will be playing a lesser role with Giannis added to the roster? Its may cause a problem like Philly. Paying Horford all that money when Embiid is taking his usage a away.

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Good point but I still think you gotta do it Twix, I believe that Duncan's role actually increases if you get Giannis because you need shooters around him. The Philly situation is different, because that was not a wise allocation of funds when Horford is pretty redundant for them.
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Re: Miami Heat Speculation Thread - 2020 and beyond... 

Post#1245 » by Seabass777 » Thu Nov 5, 2020 7:20 pm

Miami590 wrote:What if Giannis sign an extension this off-season. Do we give up on our 2021 cap space and go all out this year instead


Then you go for Leonard in '21, and maybe Paul George, or maybe a disgruntled star wants out like Beal, or Harden.
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Re: Miami Heat Speculation Thread - 2020 and beyond... 

Post#1246 » by RexBoyWonder » Thu Nov 5, 2020 7:27 pm

Beenie wrote:
RexBoyWonder wrote:
Beenie wrote:
This is assuming that Jrue wouldn't opt-out and want to resign. I'm assuming in the opposite direction that he would because I give Riley the benefit of the doubt that he would only make the deal under those conditions. We already have the Galo example to look towards as a precedent.


It makes no difference if he opts in or out, we won't have enough cap to have both Jrue and Giannis on the books, Unless you want to dump Bam or Jimmy.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but Mia could go over the cap on Jrue so long as they sign Giannis first?


Sadly you're wrong.

We won't have the open cap to sign Giannis unless we renounce Jure's bird rights (and his cap hold) even if he opts out - and once you do renounce them - you won't be able to re-sign Jure.

Simply put - take your pick, we can only have 3 of : Jimmy, Bam, Giannis, Jure.

If we get Giannis in free agency, we could keep Duncan, Herro, Nunn, first round pick - because all of them have low salaries or low cap holds. Jrue does not.
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Re: Miami Heat Speculation Thread - 2020 and beyond... 

Post#1247 » by Beenie » Thu Nov 5, 2020 7:44 pm

RexBoyWonder wrote:
Beenie wrote:
RexBoyWonder wrote:
It makes no difference if he opts in or out, we won't have enough cap to have both Jrue and Giannis on the books, Unless you want to dump Bam or Jimmy.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but Mia could go over the cap on Jrue so long as they sign Giannis first?


Sadly you're wrong.

We won't have the open cap to sign Giannis unless we renounce Jure's bird rights (and his cap hold) even if he opts out - and once you do renounce them - you won't be able to re-sign Jure.

Simply put - take your pick, we can only have 3 of : Jimmy, Bam, Giannis, Jure.

If we get Giannis in free agency, we could keep Duncan, Herro, Nunn, first round pick - because all of them have low salaries or cap holds. Jure does not.



Interesting. I didn't understand how the bird rights stipulation works in such scenarios. Thanks for the clarification.

Clarification is also necessary regarding the projected cap number for 21/22 before projecting whether Mia could afford both guys. It also wouldn't be unprecedented if incoming free agents took a little less in order to play together and make the financials work. James, Wade, and Bosh all did in 2010.

That said, if it came down to not having a chance at Giannis because of the Jrue acquisition, then I would not be in favor of the deal.

Although, there are other ways to get Giannis which would be to move Bam for him and I'm on record of being in favor of that move.
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Re: Miami Heat Speculation Thread - 2020 and beyond... 

Post#1248 » by RonaldSeikaly » Thu Nov 5, 2020 7:45 pm

I know there is no way this happens, but I’m surprised nobody has challenged the idea that bam is untouchable in a deal for Giannis. A straight up swap of the two would be a win-win...i mean we get the better player but Milwaukee has a current all-star and future top 10 player that they can control rights for 5 years.


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Re: Miami Heat Speculation Thread - 2020 and beyond... 

Post#1249 » by Beenie » Thu Nov 5, 2020 7:54 pm

RonaldSeikaly wrote:I know there is no way this happens, but I’m surprised nobody has challenged the idea that bam is untouchable in a deal for Giannis. A straight up swap of the two would be a win-win...i mean we get the better player but Milwaukee has a current all-star and future top 10 player that they can control rights for 5 years.


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Mia would have to throw in another salary to make it work.

This is a touchy subject around these parts. A lot fans just are not willing to entertain moving Bam and get triggered by the mere notion.

I'm a Bam fan just like we all are, but a Giannis swap is a no brainer for me.

And I'm not convinced that Riley wouldn't do it if push came to shove.
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Re: Miami Heat Speculation Thread - 2020 and beyond... 

Post#1250 » by twix2500 » Thu Nov 5, 2020 8:23 pm

You know whats interesting about Giannis situation oppose to players like Durant and Lebron free agency. Durant and Lebron lost because of the players around them. Giannis got knocked out of the playoffs twice because he failed individually not his teammates. Teams have schemed Giannis out of games. Its interesting that he would leave the Bucks because of his own personal failures. It doesnt matter who they put around him, he is the superstar and if he fails the team fails.
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Re: Miami Heat Speculation Thread - 2020 and beyond... 

Post#1251 » by RexBoyWonder » Thu Nov 5, 2020 8:52 pm

RonaldSeikaly wrote:I know there is no way this happens, but I’m surprised nobody has challenged the idea that bam is untouchable in a deal for Giannis. A straight up swap of the two would be a win-win...i mean we get the better player but Milwaukee has a current all-star and future top 10 player that they can control rights for 5 years.


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If Giannis was signed to a 5 years deal and Bucks would shop him, I'm sure Pat would consider offering Bam in a stright swap trade if Giannis wanted to be moved here.

But Giannis is a free agent in a year and we'll have enough cap to add him to Bam without dumping any key pieces, so why should we offer a trade?
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Re: Miami Heat Speculation Thread - 2020 and beyond... 

Post#1252 » by AirP. » Thu Nov 5, 2020 8:54 pm

twix2500 wrote:If the rumors are true that the Heat are pursuing Holiday, then they are serious about his ability. AirP, you gotta understand a lot have gain some emotional connection to some of the young players (not named Nunn lol) like they did with rook 1 and rook 2. They complained about going after Jimmy Butler just the same as Holiday. They said he wasnt that dude to break up the young core, he is not that good, too old, injured prone etc. Just after one year, now every one loves him and is now a Heat legend.

Back to Holiday, look I do believe the Heat are serious about him. However, I do not believe they will give up the kitchen and the sink for Holiday just as they didnt for Butler. But I do believe that the Heat sees him as a core player that they can win a chip with. Holiday - Butler and Bam is a hellava a trio. And yes, build around them right they can win a chip or two as the main core. And yes if they feel they can win a chip next year, yes they will be willing to use up free capspace to sign Giannis outright if he decides to play for the Heat. Because I think they will keep flexibility to make it happen regardless.

The interest to Holiday now makes sense why rumors about Matthews, and Millsap were coming out. And the that the Heat are interested in Joe Harris. The interest in swing shooters baffled me when they have an overload in swing shooters. Unless they are looking at some moves that will likely trade some of those swing shooters. Not saying they are going to trade Herro or Duncan but looking how they will filled the void of swing shooters if one or both are involved. Just looking how free agency can fill those voids.

PG: Holiday - Dragic
SG: Harris - Matthews
SF: Butler
PF: Gallinari - Milsap
Ce: Adebayo


I agree.

If championships are what you desire and you're not a small market team nobody can really be off the table for trades.

Herro should be tradable if you're getting a proven top tier player in their prime, probably nothing less then that. Yes, he should be available for B.Beal, not J.Holiday.

I really like Robinson, I was posting on this forum Robinson should be considered a core player after a month of games this last season but core players can be upgraded and Jrue is that type of upgrade plus he's just 4 years older than Robinson. Ending games with Bam, Butler, and Jrue is pretty damn good and if you can put another good defender on the court... say Crowder, you now can more easily hide Herro on defense.

I think they'll give up a good amount to get Jrue if there's an agreement in place to extend Jrue where a max or near max contract space is available. Miami gave up a bunch to get Butler, not only did they give up Richardson to Philly, Miami had to give up a 2nd pick and Whiteside to make room to acquire Butler. I believe Riley wanted to roll the dice with Butler, Whiteside and Bam for a great defensive team which is why Dragic was being moved at first vs Whiteside, that trade that Dallas turned down was really telling the direction Miami was moving towards.
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Re: Miami Heat Speculation Thread - 2020 and beyond... 

Post#1253 » by RonaldSeikaly » Thu Nov 5, 2020 8:56 pm

RexBoyWonder wrote:
RonaldSeikaly wrote:I know there is no way this happens, but I’m surprised nobody has challenged the idea that bam is untouchable in a deal for Giannis. A straight up swap of the two would be a win-win...i mean we get the better player but Milwaukee has a current all-star and future top 10 player that they can control rights for 5 years.


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If Giannis was signed to a 5 years deal and Bucks would shop him, I'm sure Pat would consider offering Bam in a stright swap trade if Giannis wanted to be moved here.

But Giannis is a free agent in a year and we'll have enough cap to add him to Bam without dumping any key pieces, so why should we offer a trade?

If we can trade now we for sure get him and we get him this year. In a free agent scenario we are one of a handful of legit contenders...Even if we are the favorite we’re certainly not guaranteed.


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Re: Miami Heat Speculation Thread - 2020 and beyond... 

Post#1254 » by RexBoyWonder » Thu Nov 5, 2020 8:57 pm

twix2500 wrote:You know whats interesting about Giannis situation oppose to players like Durant and Lebron free agency. Durant and Lebron lost because of the players around them. Giannis got knocked out of the playoffs twice because he failed individually not his teammates. Teams have schemed Giannis out of games. Its interesting that he would leave the Bucks because of his own personal failures. It doesnt matter who they put around him, he is the superstar and if he fails the team fails.


Giannis has real limitations as a player, the question is if the Bucks put the team around him to help him overcome his weaknesses?

I think it's clear they don't have enough shooting or playing making, not enough youth, and lack overall talent.

My hope is that if we ever land Giannis, we'll have the elite shooters around him, the versitle defenders to take some defensive pressure off of him, and the leadership and playmaking to make him a key part of the offense, and not the entire offense like he is now in Milwaukee.
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Re: Miami Heat Speculation Thread - 2020 and beyond... 

Post#1255 » by Beenie » Fri Nov 6, 2020 2:49 am

Speculation about Aldridge

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Re: Miami Heat Speculation Thread - 2020 and beyond... 

Post#1256 » by Bishop45 » Fri Nov 6, 2020 3:15 am

RexBoyWonder wrote:
twix2500 wrote:You know whats interesting about Giannis situation oppose to players like Durant and Lebron free agency. Durant and Lebron lost because of the players around them. Giannis got knocked out of the playoffs twice because he failed individually not his teammates. Teams have schemed Giannis out of games. Its interesting that he would leave the Bucks because of his own personal failures. It doesnt matter who they put around him, he is the superstar and if he fails the team fails.


Giannis has real limitations as a player, the question is if the Bucks put the team around him to help him overcome his weaknesses?

I think it's clear they don't have enough shooting or playing making, not enough youth, and lack overall talent.

My hope is that if we ever land Giannis, we'll have the elite shooters around him, the versitle defenders to take some defensive pressure off of him, and the leadership and playmaking to make him a key part of the offense, and not the entire offense like he is now in Milwaukee.


Middleton, Korver, Lopez, Hill, Matthews aren't shooters? The recurring #1 seed in the East didn't have enough talent/support?


Would trade Giannis in a second and he's a top 10 player, but obviously flawed-- y'all just be making wild excuses... For players u like... At least
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Re: Miami Heat Speculation Thread - 2020 and beyond... 

Post#1257 » by Kobewade11 » Fri Nov 6, 2020 3:40 am

You’re telling half truths Bish. Giannis is the reason the Bucks had the best regular season record, not those other guys. nobody is scared of Middleton, Korver, or Wesley Matthews come playoff time. You load up on Giannis and let those average to decent guys try to beat you.
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Re: Miami Heat Speculation Thread - 2020 and beyond... 

Post#1258 » by Bishop45 » Fri Nov 6, 2020 4:12 am

RiverboatRiles wrote:You’re telling half truths Bish. Giannis is the reason the Bucks had the best regular season record, not those other guys. nobody is scared of Middleton, Korver, or Wesley Matthews come playoff time. You load up on Giannis and let those average to decent guys try to beat you.


Half-truths? Where's the lie?

Tchuuuuuirps... Come on RBR: are you saying Giannis is at no fault? Every time we play them our entire defensive strategy is attacking him

How many superstars with #1 seeded teams are we letting off the hook for not getting to the finals? It's not his fault that he almost got swept by a lower seeded team, if not for his B-squad? Y'all faking the funk for no reason. He had a good supporting cast, he had good shooters-- he's just easy to game plan against for a decent defensive team
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Re: Miami Heat Speculation Thread - 2020 and beyond... 

Post#1259 » by 3ballbomber » Fri Nov 6, 2020 7:08 am

this comes same time as Holiday becomes available....
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Re: Miami Heat Speculation Thread - 2020 and beyond... 

Post#1260 » by 3ballbomber » Fri Nov 6, 2020 7:16 am

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