2025 Regular Season Thread Vol. 8

[3ammy3uck3ts]

AD is definitely an interesting name, there’s no way Kyrie doesn’t pick up his player option for next season and get $43M or whatever while he’s rehabbing (unless the Mavs just want to extend him big) and Kyrie will be out until late next season which is basically just punting next season away. Does AD want to just waste away in Dallas next season while risking injury? I would doubt it but who knows

A team will give Kyrie a max deal if he opts out I can almost promise you

He is a guard and likely has 4-5 more years of elite play left in him. He is one of the most skilled players to have ever played the game he will age well if he can physically be available.

If it’s not Dallas they will not, no one is giving the max to a player who won’t be available year 1. Who are the teams with max contracts this summer you have in mind?

[3ammy3uck3ts]

Wouldn't the problem with AD be he doesn't want to play C and Bam is better at PF than C? I mean Bam and AD (if healthy) would be the best 4-5 in the league, but if AD is not onboard 100%. Plus AD plays less games than Jimmy and, IMO, I don't think it's because of load management.... he just can't stay healthy and those things don't improve when you're 33, 34, and 35.

I think both Bam and AD don't want to be the only big on the floor in small ball lineups, at least to my understanding. It's not being the Center its being the only rim protector and rebounder at all times

This is correct, they don’t want to be the only guys responsible for the dirty work and neutering the rest of their game because of that

[jbsays]

Just curious... is there a stat/tracker for how much each Heat player touches a ball per each possession?

I mean I'd expect Herro to be first because he is primary ball handler, but my eye test would tell me Bam is likely second. He just doesn't have the offensive game to create on his own every time. Sometimes it is really about Jimmys and Joes and not Xs and Os.

[greg4012]

This is the norm for Heat fans, we’re too good for every star

Not at all, just speaking plainly. And I'd argue the inverse, you're willing to go for a lesser option because you feel the clock ticking on Bam's prime.

I really like Bam, I think he's special offensively, but a bit overrated offensively due to era. I think if he entered the league 20 years ago, he's an 18/9 guy with really good defense, maybe 3-4 assists a game as well, and just like in this era you wouldn't want him as more than a 3rd option on a true contender. And the 25 a game thing is never going to happen, but I still think he's a defensive cornerstone that can be a pillar of a championship squad. Just don't think desperately throwing assets at KD is the answer as it effectively puts us in the same situation we willingly opted not to be in with Jimmy, and I don't think 37-38 year old KD is going to be that much better than Jimmy when you factor in defense and everything else.

I don't want to desperately throw assets at KD and am lukewarm on the idea of overspending.

But, things get disingenuous when people start with their position of not wanting to make a move and then twist reality to try to make it fit their feelings (as seen in the quoted below).

Also KD is not the panacea some seem to think he is, outside of joining a 73 win squad he has failed to have great postseason success, and had plenty of injury problems (averaged 42 games played a season last 5 years not including this one). He's got pretty numbers and a smooth game, but if this team was serious about sacrificing the future for a 2 year window with a rapidly aging vet and they gave up Jimmy to just try again with KD, THAT would be the point I'm done with the front office. I may not always agree with the moves, but be consistent with what you're doing.

Firstly, nasty work to use the fact that he tore his achilles and missed an entire season (and then came back as the same level impact player) as a means to weigh down season averages for the past 5 seasons without providing that context--it's 53 games per season for the past 4 full seasons. And 86% of games since the start of the 2023-2024 season.

KD has the 4th highest playoff ppg in NBA history, and he's still putting up playoff stats commensurate with those averages.
Durant's career playoff stats are 29.3 ppg (48% fg, 36% 3pt), 4 assists, 8 rebounds, and 2.2 stocks.


KD made it to the conference finals 4 out of his 6 seasons with OKC, including the finals once (the only times OKC has been to either).

KD then went full front runner and joined GS. Lame move. I agree. But, he went on to win 2 straight championships where he was finals MVP for both. They went to a 3rd championship and lost to the GOAT after KD tore his achilles. Seemed he was kinda important to their success huh?

For those keeping track, that's 3 more conference finals appearances and 3 more finals appearances for KD. Now up to 7 conference finals through 9 seasons and 4 finals appearances through 9 seasons in the NBA.

KD then signed with Brooklyn. In season 1, they lost in round 2 to the eventual champions--Milwaukee Bucks. As many may recall, Brooklyn was a KD toe away from knocking out MIL in round 2 and likely proceeding to win it all. This is the same MIL team that swept Miami in round 1.

Jimmy's stats vs the 2021 Bucks in playoffs (4 games): 14.5 ppg (29.7% FG , 27% 3p%), 7 assists, 7 rebounds, 1.6 stocks
Durant's stats vs the 2021 Bucks in playoffs (7 games): 35.4 ppg (49.7% FG, 35 % 3p%), 5 assists, 10. rebounds, 2.7 stocks

The following season, KD's Nets flopped as drama mounted and Harden forced a trade to Philly mid-season. Nets got Ben Simmons in return who did not play a game for them that season.

KD demanded a trade in 2023 and spent the back half of his season on the Suns. Suns lost to the eventual champs in the Denver Nuggets in 6 games in round 2 of the playoffs. Phoenix was the only team to take that Nuggets squad past 5 games in a playoff series. As you all recall, Miami lost to Denver in 5 games in the finals.

Jimmy's stats vs the 2023 Nuggets in playoffs (5 games): 21.6 ppg (41.3% fg, 36.8% 3 pt), 6 assists, 5 rebounds, 1.6 stocks
Durant's stats vs the 2023 Nuggets in playoffs (6 games): 29.5 ppg (45.3% fg, 22.2% 3pt), 5 assists, 10 rebounds, 2.4 stocks

That brings us to last season, where a poorly built Phoenix squad lost to the Minnesota Timberwolves in round 1 of the playoffs in 4 games. In that series Durant averaged 27 ppg (55% FG, 42% 3pt), 3 assists, 7 rebounds, and 2 stocks. Phoenix's frontcourt got decimated by Minnesota's size as no one on PHX did anything aside from Durant and Booker.

The guy you claim has failed to have great playoff success outside of his 3 seasons with the Warriors has made it to the playoffs 13 of his 16 active seasons in the NBA. Has made it past the first round 10 out of the 13 times he's been in the playoffs. Has made it to the conference finals 7 out of his 13 times in the playoffs (54% of the time), has made it to the finals 4 out of his 13 times in the playoffs (31% of the time), and has won 2 championships.

Durant's career playoff stats are 29.3 ppg (48% fg, 36% 3pt), 4 assists, 8 rebounds, and 2.2 stocks. And he's put up numbers as good or better than his career averages in each of the 4 playoff appearances he's had since leaving GS (including the last 2 seasons). KD has the 4th highest playoff ppg in NBA history, and he's still putting up playoff stats commensurate with those averages.

Let's stop with the false equivalency of comparing Kevin Durant and Jimmy as equal pieces to work with this Miami core.

Yes, I'm concerned about any aging superstar and durability. But, Kevin Durant is the exact archetype of the exception to concerns about age. Jimmy is not.

[3ammy3uck3ts]

Just curious... is there a stat/tracker for how much each Heat player touches a ball per each possession?

I mean I'd expect Herro to be first because he is primary ball handler, but my eye test would tell me Bam is likely second. He just doesn't have the offensive game to create on his own every time. Sometimes it is really about Jimmys and Joes and not Xs and Os.

Nope, he just has 2 other priorities ahead of scoring when we’re at full health because he impacts many areas. That’s setting screens/DHOs because it’s basically the only way our perimeter players and get freed up and then playmaking/scoring are kind of hand in hand, he’s the 3rd option at all times which is wrong.

[greg4012]

Last night proves everything I argue about on here pretty much in regards to Bam, it’s time for Spo to readjust and take the shackles off Bam on the offensive end, it’s time for first option 18-20 shots a game Bam for every remaining game this season. Without I believe 7 rotation players last night and 3 starters Bam had 34-12-5 on 77TS% while also shooting 3-5 from 3 and almost single handedly won the game against the best team in the league (arguably the best frontcourt defense in the league) on their homecourt and if Terry Rozier wasn’t on the roster it would’ve been a win.

He is the best overall and impactful player on this team (especially when it matters most) and it’s not even close, his offensive game is much more polished than it’s ever been and it’s time to lean in on it and let our star be our star. No more deferring to lesser players, the only player who should have as many shots as him or close to as many is Tyler.

This is not a 1 game sample size reaction either, last year when Jimmy and Herro were both out he averaged like 25-11-4 on high efficiency. When Spo is forced to make Bam the top scoring option Bam comes through.

One good shooting stretch for Bam is not proove of anything.
Looking at his On/Off stats over the last five years, he’s been absolutely atrocious without a quality shot creator on the court. The offensive rating plummets. When paired with Herro, it’s somewhat mid, and of course, Jimmy has always been the main difference maker.



Bam can’t consistently create good quality shots. The way he gets his scoring is usually by someone setting up a mismatch for him — and even then, a lot of the time, he has to settle for a tough jumper. He’s been making them lately, but that’s not how you build a good offense.
His lack of a reliable post game, limited face-up scoring package, and inability to consistently pressure the rim without a setup man all cap his ceiling. You can use him as a connector, but not as the guy you build an offense around.

Is it really that difficult to understand, or why do you keep asking this? You don’t see how quality shot creators draw double teams and pressure the rim to collapse defenses?
The Cavs just defended Bam 1-on-1 and let him take the tough shot. Watch his shots if you don’t believe it; it was super easy to defend, he just made more of them than he should have

What Big aside from Jokic and Embiid isn't reliant on a shot creator? That's literally how the team game works.

I won't even get into the fact that Miami continues to have the worst collection of perimeter creators in the NBA.

LOL

[VaDe255]

Last night proves everything I argue about on here pretty much in regards to Bam, it’s time for Spo to readjust and take the shackles off Bam on the offensive end, it’s time for first option 18-20 shots a game Bam for every remaining game this season. Without I believe 7 rotation players last night and 3 starters Bam had 34-12-5 on 77TS% while also shooting 3-5 from 3 and almost single handedly won the game against the best team in the league (arguably the best frontcourt defense in the league) on their homecourt and if Terry Rozier wasn’t on the roster it would’ve been a win.

He is the best overall and impactful player on this team (especially when it matters most) and it’s not even close, his offensive game is much more polished than it’s ever been and it’s time to lean in on it and let our star be our star. No more deferring to lesser players, the only player who should have as many shots as him or close to as many is Tyler.

This is not a 1 game sample size reaction either, last year when Jimmy and Herro were both out he averaged like 25-11-4 on high efficiency. When Spo is forced to make Bam the top scoring option Bam comes through.

One good shooting stretch for Bam is not proove of anything.
Looking at his On/Off stats over the last five years, he’s been absolutely atrocious without a quality shot creator on the court. The offensive rating plummets. When paired with Herro, it’s somewhat mid, and of course, Jimmy has always been the main difference maker.



Bam can’t consistently create good quality shots. The way he gets his scoring is usually by someone setting up a mismatch for him — and even then, a lot of the time, he has to settle for a tough jumper. He’s been making them lately, but that’s not how you build a good offense.
His lack of a reliable post game, limited face-up scoring package, and inability to consistently pressure the rim without a setup man all cap his ceiling. You can use him as a connector, but not as the guy you build an offense around.

Is it really that difficult to understand, or why do you keep asking this? You don’t see how quality shot creators draw double teams and pressure the rim to collapse defenses?
The Cavs just defended Bam 1-on-1 and let him take the tough shot. Watch his shots if you don’t believe it; it was super easy to defend, he just made more of them than he should have

What Big aside from Jokic and Embiid isn't reliant on a shot creator? That's literally how the team game works.

I won't even get into the fact that Miami continues to have the worst collection of perimeter creators in the NBA.

LOL

Why is that funny? It’s been repeatedly proven in this league that to truly contend for championships, you almost always need a top 5 guy who can consistently bend defenses, command double teams, and elevate the entire offense. Yeah that's the reason you can only name those on one hand basically.

Bam is an excellent player, but he’s not a top 5 offensive engine. That’s not a knock on him; it’s just the reality of his skillset and playstyle.

Miami’s lack of high-end perimeter creation only makes it harder to run a reliable offense through Bam, who, for all his growth, still isn’t the type of player you can build a consistent half-court offense around. And the same applies to Herro unless he takes a major leap, even with his improvement this year he's not that guy either.

There are only a handful of true offensive engines in the league, and without one, your ceiling is naturally capped, there is no point in trying to cast players for roles they are not suited to and there is already too much proof that Bam isn't that guy.

[greg4012]

One good shooting stretch for Bam is not proove of anything.
Looking at his On/Off stats over the last five years, he’s been absolutely atrocious without a quality shot creator on the court. The offensive rating plummets. When paired with Herro, it’s somewhat mid, and of course, Jimmy has always been the main difference maker.



Bam can’t consistently create good quality shots. The way he gets his scoring is usually by someone setting up a mismatch for him — and even then, a lot of the time, he has to settle for a tough jumper. He’s been making them lately, but that’s not how you build a good offense.
His lack of a reliable post game, limited face-up scoring package, and inability to consistently pressure the rim without a setup man all cap his ceiling. You can use him as a connector, but not as the guy you build an offense around.

Is it really that difficult to understand, or why do you keep asking this? You don’t see how quality shot creators draw double teams and pressure the rim to collapse defenses?
The Cavs just defended Bam 1-on-1 and let him take the tough shot. Watch his shots if you don’t believe it; it was super easy to defend, he just made more of them than he should have

What Big aside from Jokic and Embiid isn't reliant on a shot creator? That's literally how the team game works.

I won't even get into the fact that Miami continues to have the worst collection of perimeter creators in the NBA.

LOL

Why is that funny? It’s been repeatedly proven in this league that to truly contend for championships, you almost always need a top 5 guy who can consistently bend defenses, command double teams, and elevate the entire offense. Yeah that's the reason you can only name those on one hand basically.

Bam is an excellent player, but he’s not a top 5 offensive engine. That’s not a knock on him; it’s just the reality of his skillset and playstyle.

Miami’s lack of high-end perimeter creation only makes it harder to run a reliable offense through Bam, who, for all his growth, still isn’t the type of player you can build a consistent half-court offense around. And the same applies to Herro unless he takes a major leap, even with his improvement this year he's not that guy either.

There are only a handful of true offensive engines in the league, and without one, your ceiling is naturally capped, there is no point in trying to cast players for roles they are not suited to and there is already too much proof that Bam isn't that guy.

Your posting and logic is funny.

I agree that in order to win it all you need a top 10 player and a true offensive engine that can create advantage. That doesn't mean that's all you need. The top option will always be the most important piece. But, you def need to pair the top offensive engine with as much versatile size and defense as possible and complement it all with shooting.

Let me help you out: no one on this forum is positing that Bam is the #1 option for a championship team or is the offensive engine that takes a team to true contention by himself. You're just projecting because Bammy champions Bam and is highlighting how he is playing better with opportunity (and space) on offense than most Heat fans will ever give him credit for.

Every decent team in the NBA has multiple max players. Bam is as valuable of a 2nd piece to complement a top 10 offensive engine as most any. When you just put together a bunch of fringe top 20 offensive creators as possible together you get the Brooklyn Nets and Phoenix Suns disasters. Do you posit nothing else matters? Or you just don't want to read about people speaking well of Bam?

What are you trying to get at beyond a comedy career?

[3ammy3uck3ts]

What Big aside from Jokic and Embiid isn't reliant on a shot creator? That's literally how the team game works.

I won't even get into the fact that Miami continues to have the worst collection of perimeter creators in the NBA.

LOL

Why is that funny? It’s been repeatedly proven in this league that to truly contend for championships, you almost always need a top 5 guy who can consistently bend defenses, command double teams, and elevate the entire offense. Yeah that's the reason you can only name those on one hand basically.

Bam is an excellent player, but he’s not a top 5 offensive engine. That’s not a knock on him; it’s just the reality of his skillset and playstyle.

Miami’s lack of high-end perimeter creation only makes it harder to run a reliable offense through Bam, who, for all his growth, still isn’t the type of player you can build a consistent half-court offense around. And the same applies to Herro unless he takes a major leap, even with his improvement this year he's not that guy either.

There are only a handful of true offensive engines in the league, and without one, your ceiling is naturally capped, there is no point in trying to cast players for roles they are not suited to and there is already too much proof that Bam isn't that guy.

Your posting and logic is funny.

I agree that in order to win it all you need a top 10 player and a true offensive engine that can create advantage. That doesn't mean that's all you need. The top option will always be the most important piece. But, you def need to pair the top offensive engine with as much versatile size and defense as possible and complement it all with shooting.

Let me help you out: no one on this forum is positing that Bam is the #1 option for a championship team or is the offensive engine that takes a team to true contention by himself. You're just projecting because Bammy champions Bam and is highlighting how he is playing better with opportunity (and space) on offense than most Heat fans will ever give him credit for.

Every decent team in the NBA has multiple max players. Bam is as valuable of a 2nd piece to complement a top 10 offensive engine as most any. When you just put together a bunch of fringe top 20 offensive creators as possible together you get the Brooklyn Nets and Phoenix Suns disasters. Do you posit nothing else matters? Or you just don't want to read about people speaking well of Bam?

What are you trying to get at beyond a comedy career?

Yes to be clear I’m not saying Bam is the 1st option on a championship team or even should be, I’m saying he should be on THIS team where he is clearly our best player. It does nothing but help his development further and if we do want to get that true 1st option on a championship team I want Bam as comfortable and polished as a scorer as possible so he’s better prepared the next time we’re making deep postseason runs as the 2nd option or even 3rd if we’re able to get 2 very good scorers who can impact the game at a high level.

And this is not a knock on Herro either, I also want Herro getting 18-20 shots a night with Bam for mainly the same reasons. If he’s not used to get a star I want him as polished as possible on the 1 end of the court he can potentially impact.

[VaDe255]

What Big aside from Jokic and Embiid isn't reliant on a shot creator? That's literally how the team game works.

I won't even get into the fact that Miami continues to have the worst collection of perimeter creators in the NBA.

LOL

Why is that funny? It’s been repeatedly proven in this league that to truly contend for championships, you almost always need a top 5 guy who can consistently bend defenses, command double teams, and elevate the entire offense. Yeah that's the reason you can only name those on one hand basically.

Bam is an excellent player, but he’s not a top 5 offensive engine. That’s not a knock on him; it’s just the reality of his skillset and playstyle.

Miami’s lack of high-end perimeter creation only makes it harder to run a reliable offense through Bam, who, for all his growth, still isn’t the type of player you can build a consistent half-court offense around. And the same applies to Herro unless he takes a major leap, even with his improvement this year he's not that guy either.

There are only a handful of true offensive engines in the league, and without one, your ceiling is naturally capped, there is no point in trying to cast players for roles they are not suited to and there is already too much proof that Bam isn't that guy.

Your posting and logic is funny.

I agree that in order to win it all you need a top 10 player and a true offensive engine that can create advantage. That doesn't mean that's all you need. The top option will always be the most important piece. But, you def need to pair the top offensive engine with as much versatile size and defense as possible and complement it all with shooting.

Let me help you out: no one on this forum is positing that Bam is the #1 option for a championship team or is the offensive engine that takes a team to true contention by himself. You're just projecting because Bammy champions Bam and is highlighting how he is playing better with opportunity (and space) on offense than most Heat fans will ever give him credit for.

Every decent team in the NBA has multiple max players. Bam is as valuable of a 2nd piece to complement a top 10 offensive engine as most any. When you just put together a bunch of fringe top 20 offensive creators as possible together you get the Brooklyn Nets and Phoenix Suns disasters. Do you posit nothing else matters? Or you just don't want to read about people speaking well of Bam?

What are you trying to get at beyond a comedy career?

You’re deflecting from the actual argument. No one claimed Bam should be a #1 option on a title team; the point was whether he thrives offensively when Jimmy and Herro are out. The data shows Miami’s offense collapses when Bam has to create without quality shot creators, directly contradicting the “25-11-4 on high efficiency” narrative from bammy.

Instead of addressing that, you’re building a strawman. Bam is a valuable complementary piece, but let’s not pretend he’s a necessity for building a contender either. He’s a luxury, not the blueprint.

If you can’t engage with the actual data, what exactly are you trying to argue?

[jbsays]

Wouldn't the problem with AD be he doesn't want to play C and Bam is better at PF than C? I mean Bam and AD (if healthy) would be the best 4-5 in the league, but if AD is not onboard 100%. Plus AD plays less games than Jimmy and, IMO, I don't think it's because of load management.... he just can't stay healthy and those things don't improve when you're 33, 34, and 35.

I think both Bam and AD don't want to be the only big on the floor in small ball lineups, at least to my understanding. It's not being the Center its being the only rim protector and rebounder at all times

I can buy that.
Another thing I thought of though is as constructed Heat are barely a playoff team. Yes - Davis would certainly help, but he averaged 52 games played the season prior to this one. He's played 43 games this season with 19 games to go for the Mavs and he might not return.

Assuming Heat have to give up Ware, Jokic, and Robinson they'd lose their production during the regular season.

The Heat would basically be at the same spot they're in now. They'd be a play in team with hopes of a healthy Davis being a difference maker in the playoffs. Plus, he's deal has 3 more years on it after this season.

Based on the above, I've changed my mind on him. He's a great player if/when healthy, but he's never healthy. Realistically, he wouldn't be healthy enough to make a difference maker because he'd miss so many games leaving the Heat right where they're at.

[3ammy3uck3ts]

Read on Twitter

This is what I’m talking about with KD. What’s the move after the move? We needed to make a move when we had Jimmy for preferably another all star talent, I believe that to be the same case if we were to acquire KD so what is that move? How strong is the lure to play with KD and Bam under Spo in Miami? I would say very strong. Who is Ants all time favorite player? KD. What team made a horrible franchise altering move last summer that I believe will inevitably lead Ant to ask out in 2026? The Wolves.

This is just 1 example but I’d imagine several players would have us on their radar after acquiring KD ( who is still a top 10 player in the league)

[3ammy3uck3ts]

Why is that funny? It’s been repeatedly proven in this league that to truly contend for championships, you almost always need a top 5 guy who can consistently bend defenses, command double teams, and elevate the entire offense. Yeah that's the reason you can only name those on one hand basically.

Bam is an excellent player, but he’s not a top 5 offensive engine. That’s not a knock on him; it’s just the reality of his skillset and playstyle.

Miami’s lack of high-end perimeter creation only makes it harder to run a reliable offense through Bam, who, for all his growth, still isn’t the type of player you can build a consistent half-court offense around. And the same applies to Herro unless he takes a major leap, even with his improvement this year he's not that guy either.

There are only a handful of true offensive engines in the league, and without one, your ceiling is naturally capped, there is no point in trying to cast players for roles they are not suited to and there is already too much proof that Bam isn't that guy.

Your posting and logic is funny.

I agree that in order to win it all you need a top 10 player and a true offensive engine that can create advantage. That doesn't mean that's all you need. The top option will always be the most important piece. But, you def need to pair the top offensive engine with as much versatile size and defense as possible and complement it all with shooting.

Let me help you out: no one on this forum is positing that Bam is the #1 option for a championship team or is the offensive engine that takes a team to true contention by himself. You're just projecting because Bammy champions Bam and is highlighting how he is playing better with opportunity (and space) on offense than most Heat fans will ever give him credit for.

Every decent team in the NBA has multiple max players. Bam is as valuable of a 2nd piece to complement a top 10 offensive engine as most any. When you just put together a bunch of fringe top 20 offensive creators as possible together you get the Brooklyn Nets and Phoenix Suns disasters. Do you posit nothing else matters? Or you just don't want to read about people speaking well of Bam?

What are you trying to get at beyond a comedy career?

You’re deflecting from the actual argument. No one claimed Bam should be a #1 option on a title team; the point was whether he thrives offensively when Jimmy and Herro are out. The data shows Miami’s offense collapses when Bam has to create without quality shot creators, directly contradicting the “25-11-4 on high efficiency” narrative from bammy.

Instead of addressing that, you’re building a strawman. Bam is a valuable complementary piece, but let’s not pretend he’s a necessity for building a contender either. He’s a luxury, not the blueprint.

If you can’t engage with the actual data, what exactly are you trying to argue?

I’m talking entire games where he’s featured as the guy, not random spurts throughout the course of a game where he’s cast as the 3rd option and not in a score first mindset. I think that mindset from being a screen/table setter for others as his top priority (when Herro and Jimmy are healthy) compared to being the top scoring option and knowing so going into the game makes a big difference

[greg4012]

Why is that funny? It’s been repeatedly proven in this league that to truly contend for championships, you almost always need a top 5 guy who can consistently bend defenses, command double teams, and elevate the entire offense. Yeah that's the reason you can only name those on one hand basically.

Bam is an excellent player, but he’s not a top 5 offensive engine. That’s not a knock on him; it’s just the reality of his skillset and playstyle.

Miami’s lack of high-end perimeter creation only makes it harder to run a reliable offense through Bam, who, for all his growth, still isn’t the type of player you can build a consistent half-court offense around. And the same applies to Herro unless he takes a major leap, even with his improvement this year he's not that guy either.

There are only a handful of true offensive engines in the league, and without one, your ceiling is naturally capped, there is no point in trying to cast players for roles they are not suited to and there is already too much proof that Bam isn't that guy.

Your posting and logic is funny.

I agree that in order to win it all you need a top 10 player and a true offensive engine that can create advantage. That doesn't mean that's all you need. The top option will always be the most important piece. But, you def need to pair the top offensive engine with as much versatile size and defense as possible and complement it all with shooting.

Let me help you out: no one on this forum is positing that Bam is the #1 option for a championship team or is the offensive engine that takes a team to true contention by himself. You're just projecting because Bammy champions Bam and is highlighting how he is playing better with opportunity (and space) on offense than most Heat fans will ever give him credit for.

Every decent team in the NBA has multiple max players. Bam is as valuable of a 2nd piece to complement a top 10 offensive engine as most any. When you just put together a bunch of fringe top 20 offensive creators as possible together you get the Brooklyn Nets and Phoenix Suns disasters. Do you posit nothing else matters? Or you just don't want to read about people speaking well of Bam?

What are you trying to get at beyond a comedy career?

You’re deflecting from the actual argument. No one claimed Bam should be a #1 option on a title team; the point was whether he thrives offensively when Jimmy and Herro are out. The data shows Miami’s offense collapses when Bam has to create without quality shot creators, directly contradicting the “25-11-4 on high efficiency” narrative from bammy.

Instead of addressing that, you’re building a strawman. Bam is a valuable complementary piece, but let’s not pretend he’s a necessity for building a contender either. He’s a luxury, not the blueprint.

If you can’t engage with the actual data, what exactly are you trying to argue?

Interesting, because from my vantage I see you as deflecting from the actual argument and arguing a strawman because of preconceived sensitivities to positions taken and the poster.

All Bammy was suggesting was that given the current team construct, Bam warrants a larger share of offensive focus and can actually produce when the offense is structured for him to get looks. I don't think Bammy was indicating that Bam should be on the perimeter operating as the primary source of CREATING offense, just that more sets should be run for him without having players that want to occupy the same parts of the court getting in his way.

Saying "the data shows Miami's offense collapses when Bam has to create without quality shot creators" is such a red herring, because what offense in the history of basketball doesn't collapse without quality shot creators? The number of highly productive offensive bigs that succeed without quality perimeter creators is basically just 2 (and one is facing career-ending injuries and the other is arguably the best player in the world and has still had better perimeter creators on his squad than Bam).

Let's ask Bammy--what did you mean by your post? Do you want Bam to be the primary offensive creator from the perimeter or do you want more of the offense catered to create looks for him?

EDIT to address this:

Bam is a valuable complementary piece, but let’s not pretend he’s a necessity for building a contender either. He’s a luxury, not the blueprint.

Love the notion that defense and quality frontcourt play is not necessary for championship contention. Comedy hour is back on the menu.

As if almost every NBA champion of the past decade hasn't featured some of the most versatile frontcourt play in the NBA.

[jbsays]

Heat probably couldn't make the move they wanted with Jimmy because he only wanted to go to 2-3 teams and had the opt out. Suns weren't going to give up anyone other than Beal for him.

You really think if the Suns said "we'll give you KD, filler for Jimmy, Jovic, and as many picks as you can give us" that Riley would have said "no thanks"? He probably would have moved anyone but Bam for KD.

[3ammy3uck3ts]

Your posting and logic is funny.

I agree that in order to win it all you need a top 10 player and a true offensive engine that can create advantage. That doesn't mean that's all you need. The top option will always be the most important piece. But, you def need to pair the top offensive engine with as much versatile size and defense as possible and complement it all with shooting.

Let me help you out: no one on this forum is positing that Bam is the #1 option for a championship team or is the offensive engine that takes a team to true contention by himself. You're just projecting because Bammy champions Bam and is highlighting how he is playing better with opportunity (and space) on offense than most Heat fans will ever give him credit for.

Every decent team in the NBA has multiple max players. Bam is as valuable of a 2nd piece to complement a top 10 offensive engine as most any. When you just put together a bunch of fringe top 20 offensive creators as possible together you get the Brooklyn Nets and Phoenix Suns disasters. Do you posit nothing else matters? Or you just don't want to read about people speaking well of Bam?

What are you trying to get at beyond a comedy career?

You’re deflecting from the actual argument. No one claimed Bam should be a #1 option on a title team; the point was whether he thrives offensively when Jimmy and Herro are out. The data shows Miami’s offense collapses when Bam has to create without quality shot creators, directly contradicting the “25-11-4 on high efficiency” narrative from bammy.

Instead of addressing that, you’re building a strawman. Bam is a valuable complementary piece, but let’s not pretend he’s a necessity for building a contender either. He’s a luxury, not the blueprint.

If you can’t engage with the actual data, what exactly are you trying to argue?

Interesting, because from my vantage I see you as deflecting from the actual argument and arguing a strawman because of preconceived sensitivities to positions taken and the poster.

All Bammy was suggesting was that given the current team construct, Bam warrants a larger share of offensive focus and can actually produce when the offense is structured for him to get looks. I don't think Bammy was indicating that Bam should be on the perimeter operating as the primary source of CREATING offense, just that more sets should be run for him without having players that want to occupy the same parts of the court getting in his way.

Saying "the data shows Miami's offense collapses when Bam has to create without quality shot creators" is such a red herring, because what offense in the history of basketball doesn't collapse without quality shot creators? The number of highly productive offensive bigs that succeed without quality perimeter creators is basically just 2 (and one is facing career-ending injuries and the other is arguably the best player in the world and has still had better perimeter creators on his squad than Bam).

Let's ask Bammy--what did you mean by your post? Do you want Bam to be the primary offensive creator from the perimeter or do you want more of the offense catered to create looks for him?

Yea this is pretty spot on. I want more sets ran for Bam to score, not 45% usage rate Bam where he’s getting all the shots and doing all the playmaking trying to put up Jokic numbers. I want him around 18 or so shots a night, preferably high quality shots working with others (but like you’ve said our perimeter playmaking is lacking) but obviously will need some isolation sets as well, literally what we saw last night and no I do not expect him to have a 77TS% every night.

I want Bam going into the game with the mindset of getting up high volume/high quality shots and I want him in a scoring mindset instead of a “let’s run the offense and get 2-3 DHOs in and then I’ll look to score towards the end of the shot clock”. I want the team in this mindset regarding Bam as well. My top priority to close out this season is continuing to polish his scoring game, nothing but positives can come from this, especially in the long run whenever we’re hopefully contending again.

I feel even more strongly about this than in the past now that he’s getting more and more comfortable from 3 and seems to be a legitimate threat from there now. Every time he’s forced into a score first role due to injury/sickness I’ve been vindicated, this is not just coincidence at this point.

[greg4012]

"engage the actual data"

Curious which offenses don't tank when they're operating without over 50% of their payroll, which consists of the 2 primary perimeter creators and a combined usage percentage over 50% (Jimmy and Herro out)

[twix2500]

The poor roster construction has led to this. Spo has no backup ball handling guard behind Rozier so he feels the need to try and ride it out and hope he figures it out but much to the extreme detriment to the team. If a G league guy comes in and over performs Rozier they can’t even use him in the playoffs due to no roster spots and the deadline coming soon to sign and be playoff eligible. Spo though needs to get over it and figure this out as it seems there has been discussions about sitting Rozier which happened last week only to feel forced putting him back in when guys go down. I wonder if Micky also has a mandate to make it work due to the contract. Like not allowing Butler to sit while the trade talks were going on and him trying to implode the team. Just seems to be some major dysfunction going on which is very unHeat like.

This is why I suggested Rozier going to the G-league. if he is healthy a pro should only need a few weeks to a month of reps and working out in the g-league should be able to get him back to nba level production. However, I get the impression Rozier is in some kind of denial. The Heat gave him a week in Nov of rest an injury but I remember in interviews he seem like he was not agreeing with the decision.

[VaDe255]

Your posting and logic is funny.

I agree that in order to win it all you need a top 10 player and a true offensive engine that can create advantage. That doesn't mean that's all you need. The top option will always be the most important piece. But, you def need to pair the top offensive engine with as much versatile size and defense as possible and complement it all with shooting.

Let me help you out: no one on this forum is positing that Bam is the #1 option for a championship team or is the offensive engine that takes a team to true contention by himself. You're just projecting because Bammy champions Bam and is highlighting how he is playing better with opportunity (and space) on offense than most Heat fans will ever give him credit for.

Every decent team in the NBA has multiple max players. Bam is as valuable of a 2nd piece to complement a top 10 offensive engine as most any. When you just put together a bunch of fringe top 20 offensive creators as possible together you get the Brooklyn Nets and Phoenix Suns disasters. Do you posit nothing else matters? Or you just don't want to read about people speaking well of Bam?

What are you trying to get at beyond a comedy career?

You’re deflecting from the actual argument. No one claimed Bam should be a #1 option on a title team; the point was whether he thrives offensively when Jimmy and Herro are out. The data shows Miami’s offense collapses when Bam has to create without quality shot creators, directly contradicting the “25-11-4 on high efficiency” narrative from bammy.

Instead of addressing that, you’re building a strawman. Bam is a valuable complementary piece, but let’s not pretend he’s a necessity for building a contender either. He’s a luxury, not the blueprint.

If you can’t engage with the actual data, what exactly are you trying to argue?

Interesting, because from my vantage I see you as deflecting from the actual argument and arguing a strawman because of preconceived sensitivities to positions taken and the poster.

All Bammy was suggesting was that given the current team construct, Bam warrants a larger share of offensive focus and can actually produce when the offense is structured for him to get looks. I don't think Bammy was indicating that Bam should be on the perimeter operating as the primary source of CREATING offense, just that more sets should be run for him without having players that want to occupy the same parts of the court getting in his way.

Saying "the data shows Miami's offense collapses when Bam has to create without quality shot creators" is such a red herring, because what offense in the history of basketball doesn't collapse without quality shot creators? The number of highly productive offensive bigs that succeed without quality perimeter creators is basically just 2 (and one is facing career-ending injuries and the other is arguably the best player in the world and has still had better perimeter creators on his squad than Bam).

Let's ask Bammy--what did you mean by your post? Do you want Bam to be the primary offensive creator from the perimeter or do you want more of the offense catered to create looks for him?

EDIT to address this:

Bam is a valuable complementary piece, but let’s not pretend he’s a necessity for building a contender either. He’s a luxury, not the blueprint.

Love the notion that defense and quality frontcourt play is not necessary for championship contention. Comedy hour is back on the menu.

As if almost every NBA champion of the past decade hasn't featured some of the most versatile frontcourt play in the NBA.

No one said defense and quality frontcourt play aren’t important, that’s a complete strawman. What you do need, and what nearly every champion has had, is elite perimeter and wing creators who can consistently bend defenses, collapse the paint, and generate quality looks. Bam clearly isn’t one.

Bam’s defensive versatility is valuable, but history shows you can absolutely build a contending team without a maxed-out big especially one who relies on others to create advantages for him offensively. Teams win with elite wings and guards driving the offense, supported by capable, versatile frontcourt players not the other way around.

Most importantly, let’s not forget how this all started: Bammy argued Bam should be the primary offensive option, taking 18-20 shots a game the rest of the way. That’s the argument being challenged. This was never about whether Bam is a good player, it’s about whether you can build a functional offense by running it through him. The data says no, and the history of championship teams says no.

We’re actually on the same page, you’re just trying to twist the argument into something else for no reason.

[greg4012]

You’re deflecting from the actual argument. No one claimed Bam should be a #1 option on a title team; the point was whether he thrives offensively when Jimmy and Herro are out. The data shows Miami’s offense collapses when Bam has to create without quality shot creators, directly contradicting the “25-11-4 on high efficiency” narrative from bammy.

Instead of addressing that, you’re building a strawman. Bam is a valuable complementary piece, but let’s not pretend he’s a necessity for building a contender either. He’s a luxury, not the blueprint.

If you can’t engage with the actual data, what exactly are you trying to argue?

Interesting, because from my vantage I see you as deflecting from the actual argument and arguing a strawman because of preconceived sensitivities to positions taken and the poster.

All Bammy was suggesting was that given the current team construct, Bam warrants a larger share of offensive focus and can actually produce when the offense is structured for him to get looks. I don't think Bammy was indicating that Bam should be on the perimeter operating as the primary source of CREATING offense, just that more sets should be run for him without having players that want to occupy the same parts of the court getting in his way.

Saying "the data shows Miami's offense collapses when Bam has to create without quality shot creators" is such a red herring, because what offense in the history of basketball doesn't collapse without quality shot creators? The number of highly productive offensive bigs that succeed without quality perimeter creators is basically just 2 (and one is facing career-ending injuries and the other is arguably the best player in the world and has still had better perimeter creators on his squad than Bam).

Let's ask Bammy--what did you mean by your post? Do you want Bam to be the primary offensive creator from the perimeter or do you want more of the offense catered to create looks for him?

EDIT to address this:

Bam is a valuable complementary piece, but let’s not pretend he’s a necessity for building a contender either. He’s a luxury, not the blueprint.

Love the notion that defense and quality frontcourt play is not necessary for championship contention. Comedy hour is back on the menu.

As if almost every NBA champion of the past decade hasn't featured some of the most versatile frontcourt play in the NBA.

No one said defense and quality frontcourt play aren’t important, that’s a complete strawman. What you do need, and what nearly every champion has had, is elite perimeter and wing creators who can consistently bend defenses, collapse the paint, and generate quality looks. Bam clearly isn’t one.

Bam’s defensive versatility is valuable, but history shows you can absolutely build a contending team without a maxed-out big especially one who relies on others to create advantages for him offensively. Teams win with elite wings and guards driving the offense, supported by capable, versatile frontcourt players not the other way around.

Most importantly, let’s not forget how this all started: Bammy argued Bam should be the primary offensive option, taking 18-20 shots a game the rest of the way. That’s the argument being challenged. This was never about whether Bam is a good player, it’s about whether you can build a functional offense by running it through him. The data says no, and the history of championship teams says no.

We’re actually on the same page, you’re just trying to twist the argument into something else for no reason.

1) you conveniently avoided all the things you were proven misguided on

2) are you contending that defense and quality frontcourt aren't a necessity? Because Bam is as much of an all-in-one player in terms of big man skillset and defensive impact that is perfectly suited for playoff ball as anyone in the NBA aside from AD. And you just finished suggesting that a player like Bam is a "valuable complementary piece" but is "not a necessity for building a contender"

3) I def agree you don't need a single maxed out big to win a ship. But, you do need A LOT of resources and salary committed to the frontcourt rotation in order to win it all. Some team go for multiple players. Bam kinda does it all in one player, hence being a max.

3) Did you not see Bammy's post confirming that my interpretation of his original post was that which he was communicating and not yours? He confirmed (the original source himself) that you were the one twisting his words to try to make a point.

Interesting.