2025-26 Miami Heat Regular Season Thread 2.0

[VaDe255]

Spoiler:

So when Bams on the floor it looks like you just need to have the right pieces around him and you have a chance hence the 3 deep playoff runs, when he’s off the court you’re getting destroyed.

But anyways, this wasn’t about one of our franchise greats and our current best player who shows up and can’t be played off the court, this is a discussion on Tyler Herro and his inability to do anything when it matters most.

Sounds like a lot of excuses, he got injured in the ECF game 3 4th quarter. He didn’t play 15 games injured so don’t do that lmao. The lengths some of you will go to defend this dude. Even if he did (he didn’t) he’s the only guy to play through injury?! Jimmy and Bam were banged up in several areas but you don’t see anyone sitting around making excuses for them because they’re dogs and battled through them.

Would you prefer I use entire playoff career? 41 games with the season on the line and teams really lock in:

Tyler on: -7.47
Tyler off: +5.49

Age? We’ve had 22 year olds be heavy contributors to finals runs, 24 years old, 25 years old, etc. You can’t complain about age now when one of your alls favorite things to do is compare Tyler to certain greats “when they were 22” like it actually means anything.

You are quite literally just trying to disregard the most important part of the season to prop this dude up because he puts up some numbers every now and then during some random games in January by stating he was too young or extending his injuries for longer periods of time than they literally were while probably not giving anyone else that same grace.

What did Darius Garland say their gameplan was again?

Do you not realize you just made my argument for me? You are willing to grant Bam infinite grace, acknowledging that he needs the "right pieces" but you refuse to extend that same logic to a guard against whom you are building a narrative on when he was 20-22y old in the playoffs (yes this is where the majority of his playoff games came from).

When Bam it's "he needs help and the right pieces", although he got obliterated just the same in the last two playoff series. When it's Herro, it's "he's an empty stats loser".

Teams target the weakest defender on the floor. That is Basketball 101, defensive schemes are built around hiding weaker defenders on the perimeter and strong defenders in the front court who can protect the rim. They built a Top 10 defense for years hiding Herro just fine until the team collectively fell apart against superior opponents

I’m just asking for a fair evaluation of the talent, not a double standard, is that possible without doing mental gymnastics to create narratives?

I don’t even care to bring Bam into it, you did that. Simply put, Bams on the court you have a chance, Tyler’s on the court you don’t. When Bams off the court you don’t have a chance, when Tyler’s off the court you’re better. This isn’t a Tyler vs Bam thing; it never has been and never will be. This is a Tyler doesn’t show up when it matters thing and the team is better off without him when the time comes.

What weren’t the right pieces around Tyler? Our 2 best players are a pretty good fit around him, the 3 and D guys we had around him were also good fits, hence us being able to still have a top 10 defense despite Tyler. Hes led the team in shot attempts and usage for what seems like the majority of his career, he deserved to be critiqued when that’s the case.

Why do we just accept that we have to hide this guy and don’t knock him for it? When has this ever been acceptable from a top option on the Heat? It’s never been acceptable to not play defense and we’ve never just brushed it off as nothing but since it’s Tyler we do. If you’re not going to play defense in the playoffs you better be having some insane offensive outings or your team is screwed but he hasn’t even shown to be a good offensive player in the playoffs. His best run from a basic statistics standpoint was his rookie year as a bench piece and even then I believe we were much better with him off the court.

I think my stance on Tyler is pretty fair. I think hes injury prone, he doesn’t play defense, I think hes more worried about his individual numbers and accolades than he is winning, he doesn’t show up on either end of the court in the playoffs, I don’t think hes worth the $50M a year he wants, and I believe we would have a better chance of winning in the past and future if we offload him in a deal for a star player but the front office like the fan base has been delusional about who he is as a player and I realize that may be hard to admit for them because these are real people with real relationships with one another and you never truly enjoy sending someone you’re close to away but sometimes it’s for the best when you “keep the main thing the main thing”. I don’t see how any of that is truly unfair, especially the on court stuff, like he just simply does not play defense and he does not show up offensively in the playoffs either. Those things can’t be denied

okay, this is pointless
you are just looping the same talking points while ignoring the actual arguments, some of your critique is fair, but most of it is entirely misplaced and driven by a complete narrative, let's leave it at that

[3ammy3uck3ts]

Spoiler:

Do you not realize you just made my argument for me? You are willing to grant Bam infinite grace, acknowledging that he needs the "right pieces" but you refuse to extend that same logic to a guard against whom you are building a narrative on when he was 20-22y old in the playoffs (yes this is where the majority of his playoff games came from).

When Bam it's "he needs help and the right pieces", although he got obliterated just the same in the last two playoff series. When it's Herro, it's "he's an empty stats loser".

Teams target the weakest defender on the floor. That is Basketball 101, defensive schemes are built around hiding weaker defenders on the perimeter and strong defenders in the front court who can protect the rim. They built a Top 10 defense for years hiding Herro just fine until the team collectively fell apart against superior opponents

I’m just asking for a fair evaluation of the talent, not a double standard, is that possible without doing mental gymnastics to create narratives?

I don’t even care to bring Bam into it, you did that. Simply put, Bams on the court you have a chance, Tyler’s on the court you don’t. When Bams off the court you don’t have a chance, when Tyler’s off the court you’re better. This isn’t a Tyler vs Bam thing; it never has been and never will be. This is a Tyler doesn’t show up when it matters thing and the team is better off without him when the time comes.

What weren’t the right pieces around Tyler? Our 2 best players are a pretty good fit around him, the 3 and D guys we had around him were also good fits, hence us being able to still have a top 10 defense despite Tyler. Hes led the team in shot attempts and usage for what seems like the majority of his career, he deserved to be critiqued when that’s the case.

Why do we just accept that we have to hide this guy and don’t knock him for it? When has this ever been acceptable from a top option on the Heat? It’s never been acceptable to not play defense and we’ve never just brushed it off as nothing but since it’s Tyler we do. If you’re not going to play defense in the playoffs you better be having some insane offensive outings or your team is screwed but he hasn’t even shown to be a good offensive player in the playoffs. His best run from a basic statistics standpoint was his rookie year as a bench piece and even then I believe we were much better with him off the court.

I think my stance on Tyler is pretty fair. I think hes injury prone, he doesn’t play defense, I think hes more worried about his individual numbers and accolades than he is winning, he doesn’t show up on either end of the court in the playoffs, I don’t think hes worth the $50M a year he wants, and I believe we would have a better chance of winning in the past and future if we offload him in a deal for a star player but the front office like the fan base has been delusional about who he is as a player and I realize that may be hard to admit for them because these are real people with real relationships with one another and you never truly enjoy sending someone you’re close to away but sometimes it’s for the best when you “keep the main thing the main thing”. I don’t see how any of that is truly unfair, especially the on court stuff, like he just simply does not play defense and he does not show up offensively in the playoffs either. Those things can’t be denied

okay, this is pointless
you are just looping the same talking points while ignoring the actual arguments, some of your critique is fair, but most of it is entirely misplaced and driven by a complete narrative, let's leave it at that

If he’s still on the team in June I hope you can come back and tell me I was wrong, unfortunately history says you won’t be able to regardless of what we want to nitpick or whatever excuses we want to make for the guy.

We’ll agree to disagree like you said, I think you’re very smart but I think you’re completely off base with Tyler. I’d say you Timmy and Greg are 3 of the smartest posters we have, you probably all disagree with me on Tyler, that’s fine. That’s what forums are for, discussing different views.

[dshearn]

To be clear I’m not saying Tyler as a “looter in a riot” with his play at PG, I believe I said a few weeks ago that I actually think he could do well there and put up some high assist number games if he fully leans in to the role. I was speaking more towards my comment that he doesn’t impact winning despite his impact numbers being good last year in a terrible season, and we have much more of a sample size of that being the case for the course of his career

everyone keeps repeating the same nonsense, the last 5 years when Tyler is on the court the team is winning his minutes and is objectively better (positive net rating and a +3.4 swing, also positive in each year respectively), even this year it's a +9.77 point swing

it's literally based on absolutely nothing but subjective bias

And yet every time he goes down we win more games and/or make deep postseason runs. I know he’s your boy but he’s done nothing in a Heat jersey to warrant such protection at all times. He’s a regular season merchant but when teams really lock in it’s over for him

I think he made a ton of sense hypothetically as the dude who could help carry the load during the season… but that never really materialized.


I like Herro, but everyone has a cost to performance ratio.

[greg4012]

To be clear I’m not saying Tyler as a “looter in a riot” with his play at PG, I believe I said a few weeks ago that I actually think he could do well there and put up some high assist number games if he fully leans in to the role. I was speaking more towards my comment that he doesn’t impact winning despite his impact numbers being good last year in a terrible season, and we have much more of a sample size of that being the case for the course of his career

everyone keeps repeating the same nonsense, the last 5 years when Tyler is on the court the team is winning his minutes and is objectively better (positive net rating and a +3.4 swing, also positive in each year respectively), even this year it's a +9.77 point swing

it's literally based on absolutely nothing but subjective bias

And yet every time he goes down we win more games and/or make deep postseason runs. I know he’s your boy but he’s done nothing in a Heat jersey to warrant such protection at all times. He’s a regular season merchant but when teams really lock in it’s over for him

Miami is 113-109 with Herro as a starter.

Miami is 42-39 in the past 3 seasons + this season when Herro doesn't start.

Miami is 164-110 for career when Herro doesn't start (dating back to rookie contract on a contender).

Miami is 11-13 post-Jimmy Butler when Herro doesn't start.

So 51% winning as starter
52% winning when not a starter for past 3.5 seasons
59.8% winning when not a starter for career (including rookie contract on a contender)
46% winning when not a starter post-Jimmy

[greg4012]

I was just responding to your point 1. I def agree that last year's numbers to this year can get noisy because of change of scheme and addition of Powell. But, I def still think there are lessons to be pulled from last year with regards to how players and lineups fit.

In a vacuum figuring out how to make the most of the roster today clearly calls for getting Herro fully integrated and not chasing a misleading notion that Miami plays better without him.

I've never been the Herro defender and I remain ready to ship him out for a fruitful trade and avoid the difficult contract extension decisions, but some of the rhetoric these days is pushing it to me having to defend.

I enjoyed the start of the season as much as anyone, but it seems like some want to hang a banner for it. I was always concerned about the offense improving.

I'm not trying to be too argumentative, but this is exactly what I mean by people trying to logic their way into the "Herro bad" narrative by starting from the conclusion and working backwards....And it still may not matter if Herro tries to angle for too large a contract. But for now, he's here and we have to make the best of it.

I am going to still mostly disagree with Greg's point of " I def still think there are lessons to be pulled from last year with regards to how players and lineups fit." I think Jaquez's play, integrating Powell and Wiggins' (and to a lesser degree, Ware) offensive abilities with Herro/Bam, and there being a new offense (which may or may not prove to be optimal for this group at full health) are just too many new pieces in the mix and Herro's injury complicated that further.

It is possible Miami is better off without Herro. That doesn't make Herro a bad player. Miami just may play better without his skillset given this particular group of players. Just as an easy example, Jaquez seems to be much less productive with Herro in the lineup. The other thing is Miami may be better off moving Herro because of his (potential) contract demands, both as an independent contract and as a consideration versus what it would cost to keep Powell and what Miami might be able to get for Herro in a trade.

Atlanta is currently weighing this possibility with regards to Trae Young.

Of course, there are scenarios where Miami could end up moving Wiggins, Jaquez, and/or Powell for pieces that (potentially) fit better with Herro/Bam.

My take isn't pro- or anti- Herro; I think his name is the one that comes up the most in (potential) trade scenarios because of his contract situation and Herro is the most valuable and dispensable asset Miami has that could bring back in a high-level player.

You don't think there are lessons to be learned by the past on-court play of NBA players in assessing how they play in the NBA across schemes? Telling.


Side note: Herro-Jaquez 2-man lineup on the season has a +11.5 net rating

[SA37]

Spoiler:

I'm not trying to be too argumentative, but this is exactly what I mean by people trying to logic their way into the "Herro bad" narrative by starting from the conclusion and working backwards....And it still may not matter if Herro tries to angle for too large a contract. But for now, he's here and we have to make the best of it.

I am going to still mostly disagree with Greg's point of " I def still think there are lessons to be pulled from last year with regards to how players and lineups fit." I think Jaquez's play, integrating Powell and Wiggins' (and to a lesser degree, Ware) offensive abilities with Herro/Bam, and there being a new offense (which may or may not prove to be optimal for this group at full health) are just too many new pieces in the mix and Herro's injury complicated that further.

It is possible Miami is better off without Herro. That doesn't make Herro a bad player. Miami just may play better without his skillset given this particular group of players. Just as an easy example, Jaquez seems to be much less productive with Herro in the lineup. The other thing is Miami may be better off moving Herro because of his (potential) contract demands, both as an independent contract and as a consideration versus what it would cost to keep Powell and what Miami might be able to get for Herro in a trade.

Atlanta is currently weighing this possibility with regards to Trae Young.

Of course, there are scenarios where Miami could end up moving Wiggins, Jaquez, and/or Powell for pieces that (potentially) fit better with Herro/Bam.

My take isn't pro- or anti- Herro; I think his name is the one that comes up the most in (potential) trade scenarios because of his contract situation and Herro is the most valuable and dispensable asset Miami has that could bring back in a high-level player.

You don't think there are lessons to be learned by the past on-court play of NBA players in assessing how they play in the NBA across schemes? Telling.


Side note: Herro-Jaquez 2-man lineup on the season has a +11.5 net rating

With regards to the Heat roster last year versus this year, I don't think there is much to take from it given all the changes I mentioned.

I do appreciate you posting all these statistical nuggets (not being facetious), but I think it is pretty clear Jaquez's production drops off considerably when Herro plays. Given it's small sample size this season, it may just be coincidence or there's another explanation. I'm fine waiting to see where things stand at the ASG to have a better idea of where that trends.

In general, I don't think these advanced stats are very helpful. I think they're rather misleading and tend to confuse correlation and causation.

[greg4012]

Spoiler:

I am going to still mostly disagree with Greg's point of " I def still think there are lessons to be pulled from last year with regards to how players and lineups fit." I think Jaquez's play, integrating Powell and Wiggins' (and to a lesser degree, Ware) offensive abilities with Herro/Bam, and there being a new offense (which may or may not prove to be optimal for this group at full health) are just too many new pieces in the mix and Herro's injury complicated that further.

It is possible Miami is better off without Herro. That doesn't make Herro a bad player. Miami just may play better without his skillset given this particular group of players. Just as an easy example, Jaquez seems to be much less productive with Herro in the lineup. The other thing is Miami may be better off moving Herro because of his (potential) contract demands, both as an independent contract and as a consideration versus what it would cost to keep Powell and what Miami might be able to get for Herro in a trade.

Atlanta is currently weighing this possibility with regards to Trae Young.

Of course, there are scenarios where Miami could end up moving Wiggins, Jaquez, and/or Powell for pieces that (potentially) fit better with Herro/Bam.

My take isn't pro- or anti- Herro; I think his name is the one that comes up the most in (potential) trade scenarios because of his contract situation and Herro is the most valuable and dispensable asset Miami has that could bring back in a high-level player.

You don't think there are lessons to be learned by the past on-court play of NBA players in assessing how they play in the NBA across schemes? Telling.


Side note: Herro-Jaquez 2-man lineup on the season has a +11.5 net rating

With regards to the Heat roster last year versus this year, I don't think there is much to take from it given all the changes I mentioned.

I do appreciate you posting all these statistical nuggets (not being facetious), but I think it is pretty clear Jaquez's production drops off considerably when Herro plays. Given it's small sample size this season, it may just be coincidence or there's another explanation. I'm fine waiting to see where things stand at the ASG to have a better idea of where that trends.

In general, I don't think these advanced stats are very helpful. I think they're rather misleading and tend to confuse correlation and causation.

You seem to place A LOT of weight on how impactful the change of scheme is in terms of assessing team dynamic. How can you champion that perspective and then proceed to make conclusive determinations as to Herro's fit within this massively changed scheme after he missed the entire training camp and preseason and was thrown into the mix for ONLY SIX GAMES with seemingly a different surrounding lineup every night??

I think it's clear that Jaquez's production slips when his onball role diminishes. Is Herro a ballhandler that can impact that? Yes. Is the only way to implement Herro for him to play all his minutes alongside a PG that is handling the ball and thus reducing every1 else's onball role? No. Dru Smith and Davion Mitchell do not NEED to dominate 20% of the team's total minutes per game.

I'm not a big fan of blanket dismissals just because comparisons aren't completely controlled. To me that's lazy and convenient for narrative pushing.

It seems to me that the driving lens for any basketball analysis for you on this subject is upcoming contract context. I get it. I surely share similar sentiments to you on that front, but I'm trying to separate that from a strict assessment of how to maximize this roster and IMO the answer is not "oh well it can't work" or "one of our top 2 scorers can't fit with any of the roster because we had a top 13 offense (barely above average) without him for a stretch of 17 games at the start of the season when Fontecchio was shooting 50%+ from 3 and the NBA hadn't adjusted to our change in scheme".

[SA37]

Spoiler:

You don't think there are lessons to be learned by the past on-court play of NBA players in assessing how they play in the NBA across schemes? Telling.


Side note: Herro-Jaquez 2-man lineup on the season has a +11.5 net rating

With regards to the Heat roster last year versus this year, I don't think there is much to take from it given all the changes I mentioned.

I do appreciate you posting all these statistical nuggets (not being facetious), but I think it is pretty clear Jaquez's production drops off considerably when Herro plays. Given it's small sample size this season, it may just be coincidence or there's another explanation. I'm fine waiting to see where things stand at the ASG to have a better idea of where that trends.

In general, I don't think these advanced stats are very helpful. I think they're rather misleading and tend to confuse correlation and causation.

You seem to place A LOT of weight on how impactful the change of scheme is in terms of assessing team dynamic. How can you champion that perspective and then proceed to make conclusive determinations as to Herro's fit within this massively changed scheme after he missed the entire training camp and preseason and was thrown into the mix for ONLY SIX GAMES with seemingly a different surrounding lineup every night??

I think it's clear that Jaquez's production slips when his onball role diminishes. Is Herro a ballhandler that can impact that? Yes. Is the only way to implement Herro for him to play all his minutes alongside a PG that is handling the ball and thus reducing every1 else's onball role? No. Dru Smith and Davion Mitchell do not NEED to dominate 20% of the team's total minutes per game.

I'm not a big fan of blanket dismissals just because comparisons aren't completely controlled. To me that's lazy and convenient for narrative pushing.

It seems to me that the driving lens for any basketball analysis for you on this subject is upcoming contract context. I get it. I surely share similar sentiments to you on that front, but I'm trying to separate that from a strict assessment of how to maximize this roster and IMO the answer is not "oh well it can't work" or "one of our top 2 scorers can't fit with any of the roster because we had a top 13 offense (barely above average) without him for a stretch of 17 games at the start of the season when Fontecchio was shooting 50%+ from 3 and the NBA hadn't adjusted to our change in scheme".

I don't think our conclusions are much different: Jaquez's production drops when he plays with Herro because his strength is on the ball and he's not a very good outside/spot-up shooter. That plays into a bigger thesis I have, which is in order for Miami to be successful with the current roster, Miami needs Herro to play more off the ball than on it (something I've said since last year). Not just to (potentially) get more consistent production from Jaquez, but to also allow other scorers (Wiggins, Powell, Adebayo) the chance to get theirs, which will make Miami much harder to defend.

This doesn't mean Miami should prioritize Jaquez in particular, but Miami does need to make sure Jaquez -- or someone else -- is able to give Miami the production Jaquez was giving Miami when we were thinking he'd be an MIP candidate.

Specifically to Herro, just because he is capable of being a primary ball-handler/scorer doesn't mean he should be. He's not a particularly good playmaker, he's doesn't draw many fouls or get to the line much, and he doesn't really force the kinds of defensive adjustments that other primary ball-handlers/scorers might. As I've said previously, I think he's a better shooting version of CJ McCollum, and no one would be clamoring for the offense to be run through/dominated by CJ McCollum.

In sum, I think Miami's potential as a group is directly linked to Herro's ability to play off of the ball.

Last point is, yeah, top-13 offense seems like a meh accomplishment, but given Miami has lived at the bottom of offensive rankings for god knows how many seasons now, top13 is a massive jump. Yeah, it was 17 games. Sure, it may not have lasted forever/a whole season. We don't know.

In any case, Miami's FO is going to have to make decisions on this team and its components in the near future, whether that is due to contract status or potential trades.

[greg4012]

I don't think our conclusions are much different: Jaquez's production drops when he plays with Herro because his strength is on the ball and he's not a very good outside/spot-up shooter. That plays into a bigger thesis I have, which is in order for Miami to be successful with the current roster, Miami needs Herro to play more off the ball than on it (something I've said since last year). Not just to (potentially) get more consistent production from Jaquez, but to also allow other scorers (Wiggins, Powell, Adebayo) the chance to get theirs, which will make Miami much harder to defend.

This doesn't mean Miami should prioritize Jaquez in particular, but Miami does need to make sure Jaquez -- or someone else -- is able to give Miami the production Jaquez was giving Miami when we were thinking he'd be an MIP candidate.

Specifically to Herro, just because he is capable of being a primary ball-handler/scorer doesn't mean he should be. He's not a particularly good playmaker, he's doesn't draw many fouls or get to the line much, and he doesn't really force the kinds of defensive adjustments that other primary ball-handlers/scorers might. As I've said previously, I think he's a better shooting version of CJ McCollum, and no one would be clamoring for the offense to be run through/dominated by CJ McCollum.

In sum, I think Miami's potential as a group is directly linked to Herro's ability to play off of the ball.

Herro does play off ball and his stats and impact are good this season doing it. Putting Herro at de-facto PG for part of his minutes is about maximizing defensive rotations with offensive juice (some minutes where Herro is the smallest defender on the floor), and better distributing the onball duties rather than Dru and Davion dominating 20% of the total team minutes every game.

No one in this thread is clamoring for the offense to be run through Herro, so I have no idea what you're trying to get at with that point. This offense is clearly at its best when 4-5 of the players on the floor can do some semblance of dribble creation on the fly in a 1-on-1 setting. That's players leveraging their on-ball skillsets. That is exactly what Miami's new offensive scheme is built on. The idea is to carve out 10-12 mpg where Herro is de-facto PG bc he's the smallest player on the court and running with other ballhandlers (distributed offense).

Last point is, yeah, top-13 offense seems like a meh accomplishment, but given Miami has lived at the bottom of offensive rankings for god knows how many seasons now, top13 is a massive jump. Yeah, it was 17 games. Sure, it may not have lasted forever/a whole season. We don't know.

In any case, Miami's FO is going to have to make decisions on this team and its components in the near future, whether that is due to contract status or potential trades.

From February 7th onward, Tyler was the starting PG for 15 of the 33 games. During those 15 games, Miami had an ORTG of 114.9 and a DRTG of 109.2. That's commensurate with the 12th ranked ORTG for last season and the 3rd ranked DRTG for last season. Miami's net rating of +5.7 during these games was commensurate with the 4th best net rating from last season.

15 game sample vs a 17 game sample. I say we marry the best of both of those samples to maximize this team for 48 minutes a night.


So we all agree that:

(1) the large change in offensive scheme likely requires some level of adaptation period for Herro to get up to speed and Spo to find optimal rotations beyond a 6 game sample with multiple different starting lineups

(2) Herro can play well with Jaquez so long as Jaquez is afforded an opportunity to remain on-ball

(3) There is a real sample size from last season where Herro started games at de-facto PG and Miami had some of its best DEFENSIVE and net rating outputs of the season. Yes, the offensive scheme has changed greatly and that impacts takeaways from offensive outputs from last season but that is MUCH LESS the case defensively where the similar personnel groupings should provide good data go off of. There is clear data reflecting that making Herro the smallest player on the floor makes it easier to hide him defensively for stretches and thus making more of the minutes where you get his offensive impact.

(4) Miami's entire roster is set up for decision points this offseason. That is flexibility in the books, contracts and assets that Miami has lacked for years. That is structural advantage to assess this roster and aim to maximize the value from it (ideally a superstar trade).

[Lennyzinho]

Spoiler:

I don’t even care to bring Bam into it, you did that. Simply put, Bams on the court you have a chance, Tyler’s on the court you don’t. When Bams off the court you don’t have a chance, when Tyler’s off the court you’re better. This isn’t a Tyler vs Bam thing; it never has been and never will be. This is a Tyler doesn’t show up when it matters thing and the team is better off without him when the time comes.

What weren’t the right pieces around Tyler? Our 2 best players are a pretty good fit around him, the 3 and D guys we had around him were also good fits, hence us being able to still have a top 10 defense despite Tyler. Hes led the team in shot attempts and usage for what seems like the majority of his career, he deserved to be critiqued when that’s the case.

Why do we just accept that we have to hide this guy and don’t knock him for it? When has this ever been acceptable from a top option on the Heat? It’s never been acceptable to not play defense and we’ve never just brushed it off as nothing but since it’s Tyler we do. If you’re not going to play defense in the playoffs you better be having some insane offensive outings or your team is screwed but he hasn’t even shown to be a good offensive player in the playoffs. His best run from a basic statistics standpoint was his rookie year as a bench piece and even then I believe we were much better with him off the court.

I think my stance on Tyler is pretty fair. I think hes injury prone, he doesn’t play defense, I think hes more worried about his individual numbers and accolades than he is winning, he doesn’t show up on either end of the court in the playoffs, I don’t think hes worth the $50M a year he wants, and I believe we would have a better chance of winning in the past and future if we offload him in a deal for a star player but the front office like the fan base has been delusional about who he is as a player and I realize that may be hard to admit for them because these are real people with real relationships with one another and you never truly enjoy sending someone you’re close to away but sometimes it’s for the best when you “keep the main thing the main thing”. I don’t see how any of that is truly unfair, especially the on court stuff, like he just simply does not play defense and he does not show up offensively in the playoffs either. Those things can’t be denied

okay, this is pointless
you are just looping the same talking points while ignoring the actual arguments, some of your critique is fair, but most of it is entirely misplaced and driven by a complete narrative, let's leave it at that

If he’s still on the team in June I hope you can come back and tell me I was wrong, unfortunately history says you won’t be able to regardless of what we want to nitpick or whatever excuses we want to make for the guy.

We’ll agree to disagree like you said, I think you’re very smart but I think you’re completely off base with Tyler. I’d say you Timmy and Greg are 3 of the smartest posters we have, you probably all disagree with me on Tyler, that’s fine. That’s what forums are for, discussing different views.

Just because some of us defend Herro, doesn't mean we wouldn't immediately throw him in a trade if it meant getting Giannis or Luka or Ant.

Often players are thrown around that are making more and have more warts and downside than herro, who's a homegrown talent. Why would anyone want Trae or LaMelo? Before most here wanted Bradley Beal. Never wanted that guy. I did want Dame tho. Dame and Giannis didnt work cuz they both need the ball. A Dame Jimmy Bam core could've been fun but that's in the past now.

I will continuously say that judging herro when heat are rolling out this small of a lineup is unfair. The same way that expecting him or the Heat to have accomplished anything other than a 1-8 record vs boston and Cleveland last two playoff series would be unrealistic.

Any trade that lands us an elite upgrade top 20 type player (Luka Giannis Ant) or any trade for a player similar ranking but that offers size like Sabonis or Trey Murphy, id send herro out. Norm has made him expendable more than ever.

[3ammy3uck3ts]

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I mean am being delusional or are all signs pointing to Miami? No sun in New York, Haynes says it’s hard for the Knicks to make the deal now, we’re a big market like the others listed, and we also don’t have taxes which Giannis himself has discussed before.

Last tweet here is basically setting the stage for what’s to come as the Bucks continue to lose. He’s setting it up as a mutual decision that’s best for everyone involved, the Bucks simply don’t have the assets or the avenue to get assets to then move for pieces to compete.

[3ammy3uck3ts]

Also keep in mind Haynes is related to Giannis wife so this is all straight from the source

[3ammy3uck3ts]

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[Wiltside]

I’m ready to get hurt one more time

[3ammy3uck3ts]

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[Tim_Hardawayy]

I love the fact the conversation on Herro is finally turning constructive, though I think a couple of you are still being a bit too stubborn and ignoring data in favor of narratives. But please let this Giannis deal happen so this debate can be over. Because even in a best case scenario, the pro Herro side of the debate to a man would all probably agree if he's here long term at 45+ million a year, this team is going to be in a precarious spot when it comes to competing the next few years.

[3ammy3uck3ts]

I’m ready to get hurt one more time

Don’t worry Wilt, this is the one we’ve been waiting half a decade+ on, Pats not losing this whale

[Lennyzinho]

I love the fact the conversation on Herro is finally turning constructive, though I think a couple of you are still being a bit too stubborn and ignoring data in favor of narratives. But please let this Giannis deal happen so this debate can be over. Because even in a best case scenario, the pro Herro side of the debate to a man would all probably agree if he's here long term at 45+ million a year, this team is going to be in a precarious spot when it comes to competing the next few years.

For real. Half the reason I want us to make a trade so bad is so that we don't overpay on herro and JJJ and wiggs extensions next year and jovic deal kicks in and we literally have the same GD team again and we have to keep hearing spo say "we have enough" when no we effing dont have enough.

[Wiltside]

I’m ready to get hurt one more time

Don’t worry Wilt, this is the one we’ve been waiting half a decade+ on, Pats not losing this whale

What could possibly go wrong

[Enso]

Seems like Giannis is gonna have to straight up tell the org he wants to get traded or they won’t entertain any offers. They’d prob have to lose every game while he’s off for that to happen.