2023 Miami Heat Regular Season Thread - Westbrook and Love edition

[gom]

Game Thread for tomorrow night is live. Let's get the WIN! Let's go, HEAT!

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=2272615&p=104705659#p104705659

[Timantha]

Read on Twitter

[SA37]

Spoiler:

To assume he's done developing is a bit of a stretch IMO. He's 23 years old. Look at the leap Bam took this year and he's 25. Jermaine O'Neal spent four years as a part time rotation player in Portland before finding his footing in the league, Kyle Lowry wasn't much more than a reserve for a lot of his early years, and Jimmy was just a defensive wing with no real offensive game and we all know how he's turned out.

I think it's fair to say that Tyler needs to really push himself to be better and that he's at a career crossroads, but I don't think it's fair to just assume he's a finished product. I also think he should be available in trade, along with Lowry's expiring contract, Jovic (only if need be) our 2023 first, 2028 first, and 2030 first for whatever star player we can get to put next to Jimmy and Bam...

My concern with Herro is he doesn't seem to have a knack for drawing fouls and consistently getting to the line. I am not asking him to average 10ftpg, but I think he has got to get around 5ftpg. He doesn't seem to be able to get to the bucket and get himself easy shots, and I am not sure either of these things is going to change.

The other thing is, I think Herro is a reasonably replaceable player. Is he really much better than, say, Jordan Clarkson, Buddy Hield, or Gary Trent?

I could see Herro getting traded in the summer for VanVleet. I would hope if Beal asked to be traded Miami would pass simply because of that insane contract. I doubt Lillard becomes available, but Riley would offer everything under the sun to get him.

Absolutely Herro has a leap in him where he can elevate his game further. If mental midget Bam can do it no doubt Tyler can. Again he needs to get stronger - W/ his elite footwork this will help him attack the basket easier & get to the line more. The only question is where will most of his focus be.....IG fame & sexing his IG model wife?

Just from the little I've seen posted on these boards, it seems like Herro does not have a work issue. The kid puts in the work and is constantly trying to improve. I don't question that aspect.

My concern is whether or not that will translate into a leap on the court.

Herro is an elite shooter and he can definitely put the ball in the basket. That is not up for debate. The question is can he go from being an above average player to and all-star calibre player.

Will he end up being more Jordan Clarkson/Buddy Hield or will he be something closer to CJ McCollum/Zach Lavine?

Personally, I don't seem him going beyond that CJ McCollum/Zach Lavine threshold, which is basically saying Herro might crack the top-10 at his position, but if he does he will barely do so.

[MorbidHEAT]

People really forget how young Herro is. He has been in the league for 4 years and has improved every year. We don't really know where his ceiling is. He needs to add the ability to draw fouls to his game and with that he will average a higher points per game. Once he does that and is more consistent, we would be talking about being in the same category as a Donovan Mitchell. He is already perfectly ok with shooting and play making in big moments.

Using the Celtics as an example, because that team was perfectly built. I think we need to use Tyler more in the Ray Allen role. He has to be running around screens and be ready to shoot any open shot, and then drive when he has the avenue. That isn't to say that he can't handle the ball and make plays, but for Jimmy to be effective, Jimmy has to be in the Paul Pierce play making role. Bam will never be KG offensively, but he has to be aggressive like KD at all times so the defense collapses on him and it opens up the court.

There is something missing right now. We rarely see Jimmy, Bam, and Tyler all have a good game together. That combination of players isn't meshing well all the time, and that is a bit of a problem. It all hinges on Jimmy and Bam being aggressive.

[ShulaDon92]

Wiltsides right tho:

Herro was cooking teams while Jimmy was out.

Herro has played worse with Jimmy out this season

You mean with our gleague All-stars?

What's our record without Herro?

Herro cooked the Jazz and the Thunder right, right?

[ShulaDon92]

People really forget how young Herro is. He has been in the league for 4 years and has improved every year. We don't really know where his ceiling is. He needs to add the ability to draw fouls to his game and with that he will average a higher points per game. Once he does that and is more consistent, we would be talking about being in the same category as a Donovan Mitchell. He is already perfectly ok with shooting and play making in big moments.

Using the Celtics as an example, because that team was perfectly built. I think we need to use Tyler more in the Ray Allen role. He has to be running around screens and be ready to shoot any open shot, and then drive when he has the avenue. That isn't to say that he can't handle the ball and make plays, but for Jimmy to be effective, Jimmy has to be in the Paul Pierce play making role. Bam will never be KG offensively, but he has to be aggressive like KD at all times so the defense collapses on him and it opens up the court.

There is something missing right now. We rarely see Jimmy, Bam, and Tyler all have a good game together. That combination of players isn't meshing well all the time, and that is a bit of a problem. It all hinges on Jimmy and Bam being aggressive.

During their best stretch together this season we still needed more three balls to beat the Bucks. Those were the metrics. They are a good trio but not consistently excellent yet.

They take turns sometimes, which is nice. Jimmy goes, then Bam, then Tyler...

But Tyler's inefficiency is killing any Ray Allen comparisons right now. He needs better shot selection, especially when his shot is colder.

Plus Jimmy was hibernating at times earlier.

[ShulaDon92]

Need Bam to shoot threes.
Need Tyler to spam threes.

[MorbidHEAT]

People really forget how young Herro is. He has been in the league for 4 years and has improved every year. We don't really know where his ceiling is. He needs to add the ability to draw fouls to his game and with that he will average a higher points per game. Once he does that and is more consistent, we would be talking about being in the same category as a Donovan Mitchell. He is already perfectly ok with shooting and play making in big moments.

Using the Celtics as an example, because that team was perfectly built. I think we need to use Tyler more in the Ray Allen role. He has to be running around screens and be ready to shoot any open shot, and then drive when he has the avenue. That isn't to say that he can't handle the ball and make plays, but for Jimmy to be effective, Jimmy has to be in the Paul Pierce play making role. Bam will never be KG offensively, but he has to be aggressive like KD at all times so the defense collapses on him and it opens up the court.

There is something missing right now. We rarely see Jimmy, Bam, and Tyler all have a good game together. That combination of players isn't meshing well all the time, and that is a bit of a problem. It all hinges on Jimmy and Bam being aggressive.

During their best stretch together this season we still needed more three balls to beat the Bucks. Those were the metrics. They are a good trio but not consistently excellent yet.

They take turns sometimes, which is nice. Jimmy goes, then Bam, then Tyler...

But Tyler's inefficiency is killing any Ray Allen comparisons right now. He needs better shot selection, especially when his shot is colder.

Plus Jimmy was hibernating at times earlier.

Just to be clear, I'm not comparing Tyler to Ray. I'm simply saying that he has to take that moving off the ball, catch and shoot style of play for us to be successful.

[Wiltside]

Watch on YouTube

Nice to see Jovic back on the court. Just another body that Spo will never play in the end though.

Depresses me thinking about how much more interesting we’d be with Jovic and Yurtseven getting burn.

[RexBoyWonder]

Watch on YouTube

[RexBoyWonder]

Watch on YouTube

Nice to see Jovic back on the court. Just another body that Spo will never play in the end though.

Depresses me thinking about how much more interesting we’d be with Jovic and Yurtseven getting burn.

Unpopular take :

ATM Jovic > Love.

He's taller, can pass, great IQ, can shoot. Better defender. Just lacks the experience.

Zeller and Love are playing fine, but Omer and Jovic could be just as impactful if they get the burn (they won't).

[3ammy3uck3ts]

People really forget how young Herro is. He has been in the league for 4 years and has improved every year. We don't really know where his ceiling is. He needs to add the ability to draw fouls to his game and with that he will average a higher points per game. Once he does that and is more consistent, we would be talking about being in the same category as a Donovan Mitchell. He is already perfectly ok with shooting and play making in big moments.

Using the Celtics as an example, because that team was perfectly built. I think we need to use Tyler more in the Ray Allen role. He has to be running around screens and be ready to shoot any open shot, and then drive when he has the avenue. That isn't to say that he can't handle the ball and make plays, but for Jimmy to be effective, Jimmy has to be in the Paul Pierce play making role. Bam will never be KG offensively, but he has to be aggressive like KD at all times so the defense collapses on him and it opens up the court.

There is something missing right now. We rarely see Jimmy, Bam, and Tyler all have a good game together. That combination of players isn't meshing well all the time, and that is a bit of a problem. It all hinges on Jimmy and Bam being aggressive.

I don’t think Tyler has improved every season, this season is a wash from last year best case, the only thing keeping his efficiency somewhat decent is his jump in free throw percentage. Overall floor game has dropped.

I agree though we could use him in an Allen role and maybe that’ll be effective, you’re setting yourself up for disappointment though if you think he’ll ever reach Mitchell’s level.

Why can Bam never be on KGs level offensively? He’s not that far off and has actually improved every season of his career

[3ammy3uck3ts]

Herro has played worse with Jimmy out this season

You mean with our gleague All-stars?

What's our record without Herro?

Herro cooked the Jazz and the Thunder right, right?

His overall efficiency is worse when Jimmy is out. He’s had some good games but he’s had some very bad games as well

[Kobewade11]

Unpopular take :

ATM Jovic > Love.

He's taller, can pass, great IQ, can shoot. Better defender. Just lacks the experience.

Zeller and Love are playing fine, but Omer and Jovic could be just as impactful if they get the burn (they won't).

Omer maybe. Jovic was never really going to be in the picture this year and I doubt he’d be as impactful as Love.

[3ammy3uck3ts]

Read on Twitter

Cavs having regrets

[AirP.]

People really forget how young Herro is. He has been in the league for 4 years and has improved every year. We don't really know where his ceiling is. He needs to add the ability to draw fouls to his game and with that he will average a higher points per game. Once he does that and is more consistent, we would be talking about being in the same category as a Donovan Mitchell. He is already perfectly ok with shooting and play making in big moments.

Using the Celtics as an example, because that team was perfectly built. I think we need to use Tyler more in the Ray Allen role. He has to be running around screens and be ready to shoot any open shot, and then drive when he has the avenue. That isn't to say that he can't handle the ball and make plays, but for Jimmy to be effective, Jimmy has to be in the Paul Pierce play making role. Bam will never be KG offensively, but he has to be aggressive like KD at all times so the defense collapses on him and it opens up the court.

There is something missing right now. We rarely see Jimmy, Bam, and Tyler all have a good game together. That combination of players isn't meshing well all the time, and that is a bit of a problem. It all hinges on Jimmy and Bam being aggressive.

I don't think people forget how young Herro is because we've heard it for 2+ years now but he's in year 4 of being a professional which means having the money and the time to work on what he wants to work on and how much time he decides to dedicate to that work and I think by now most believe he's a hard worker so that's not being questioned either.

The question is how much will Herro develop since he's been given basically a green light to shoot whenever he wants since his 2nd year, so we're now in the 3rd consecutive year of him gunning shots.

Here's the PER36s for all seasons for Herro, personally I don't see anything in his progression of his per36 stats that says a jump has happened or will happen, what I've seen is that he's getting more minutes and just shooting more. Is there a leap, maybe but much like last year I'd say there's only a very small chance for it, it's quite possible you're seeing what you're going to get from him, maybe he gets a little more consistent with his shooting which will help his efficiency/TS% but it's not going to be what you'd want from a high-volume shooter in this current era.

Code: Select all

+-----------+---+-----+----+-----+----+-----+---+-----+-----+-----+-----+---+----+----+----------+
|Player     |age|ts%  |fg2a|2pt% |fg3a|3pt% |fta|FT%  |Pts36|Ast36|Reb36|tov|ortg|drtg|Net Rating|
+-----------+---+-----+----+-----+----+-----+---+-----+-----+-----+-----+---+----+----+----------+
|Tyler Herro|20 |0.55 |7.9 |0.462|7.1 |0.389|2.4|0.87 |17.7 |2.9  |5.3  |2.1|103 |112 |-9        |
|Tyler Herro|21 |0.543|8.9 |0.498|6.5 |0.36 |2.6|0.803|17.9 |4.1  |5.9  |2.2|104 |113 |-9        |
|Tyler Herro|22 |0.561|11.4|0.477|7.3 |0.399|3.7|0.868|22.9 |4.4  |5.5  |2.9|107 |111 |-4        |
|Tyler Herro|23 |0.554|9.1 |0.483|8.3 |0.373|2.8|0.923|20.6 |4.4  |5.7  |2.5|107 |114 |-7        |
+-----------+---+-----+----+-----+----+-----+---+-----+-----+-----+-----+---+----+----+----------+



[twix2500]

The last Hawks game units

The starting unit got less minutes than the second unit.

Starting Unit
Vincent - Herro - Butler - Strus - Adebayo
12 mins, OffRtg - 116.0, DefRtg - 160.0

2nd Unit
Oladipo - Herro - Robinson - Martin - Adebayo
17 mins, OffRtg - 163.0, DefRtg - 140.7

3rd Unit
Vincent - Oladipo - Butler - Strus - Zeller
7 mins, OffRtg - 117.6, DefRtg - 106.7

Closing Unit
Oladipo - Herro - Butler - Martin - Adebayo
6 mins, OffRtg - 115.4, DefRtg - 100.0

[twix2500]

The last Hawks game units

The starting unit got less minutes than the second unit.

Starting Unit
Vincent - Herro - Butler - Strus - Adebayo
12 mins, OffRtg - 116.0, DefRtg - 160.0

2nd Unit
Oladipo - Herro - Robinson - Martin - Adebayo
17 mins, OffRtg - 163.0, DefRtg - 140.7

3rd Unit
Vincent - Oladipo - Butler - Strus - Zeller
7 mins, OffRtg - 117.6, DefRtg - 106.7

Closing Unit
Oladipo - Herro - Butler - Martin - Adebayo
6 mins, OffRtg - 115.4, DefRtg - 100.0

The last 4 games the closing unit
Oladipo - Herro - Butler - Martin - Adebayo
OffRtg - 130.8, DefRtg - 111.5, NetRtg - 19.2

[contract]

Spoiler:

My concern with Herro is he doesn't seem to have a knack for drawing fouls and consistently getting to the line. I am not asking him to average 10ftpg, but I think he has got to get around 5ftpg. He doesn't seem to be able to get to the bucket and get himself easy shots, and I am not sure either of these things is going to change.

The other thing is, I think Herro is a reasonably replaceable player. Is he really much better than, say, Jordan Clarkson, Buddy Hield, or Gary Trent?

I could see Herro getting traded in the summer for VanVleet. I would hope if Beal asked to be traded Miami would pass simply because of that insane contract. I doubt Lillard becomes available, but Riley would offer everything under the sun to get him.

Absolutely Herro has a leap in him where he can elevate his game further. If mental midget Bam can do it no doubt Tyler can. Again he needs to get stronger - W/ his elite footwork this will help him attack the basket easier & get to the line more. The only question is where will most of his focus be.....IG fame & sexing his IG model wife?

Just from the little I've seen posted on these boards, it seems like Herro does not have a work issue. The kid puts in the work and is constantly trying to improve. I don't question that aspect.

My concern is whether or not that will translate into a leap on the court.

Herro is an elite shooter and he can definitely put the ball in the basket. That is not up for debate. The question is can he go from being an above average player to and all-star calibre player.

Will he end up being more Jordan Clarkson/Buddy Hield or will he be something closer to CJ McCollum/Zach Lavine?

Personally, I don't seem him going beyond that CJ McCollum/Zach Lavine threshold, which is basically saying Herro might crack the top-10 at his position, but if he does he will barely do so.

The questions are ...

1. Can he be more efficient doing what he already does?
2. Can he add more while being more efficient?
3. Can he do more without subtracting from his teammates?

The answers as I see it so far are ...

1. Probably.
2. Possibly.
3. I don't know.

That 3rd one is the real tricky part. More isn't really more if it doesn't add to the sum of the parts (the team's performance).

[twix2500]

There is a player iv been watching develop slowly on the Hawks team is Jalen Johnson. I think he would be a sneaky wonderful get for the Heat system. Very good athleticism, good size 6'9, very good defensive talent that fits Heat system. Runs and a cut very well. Not a good shooter but has a good form in his stroke.

Another side not. I think the Heat really f'up not getting Cam Reddish while his value was low.

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